'Mary and John's' or 'Mary's and John's'

_Jamie_

A grammatical thing I've been wondering about for a while that maybe people can help me with. It's not of great importance, it's just something that been niggling for a while now.

If you were at the wedding of Mary and John, and you wanted to, say, pop some photos of the day up on Facebook, would you entitle the album 'Mary's and John's Wedding' or 'Mary and John's wedding'. I used to always go with the former. But I then started to doubt myself on it because pretty much everyone I know seems to go with the latter. So I've started going with that. It just seems like the latter way is treating them like a compound!

Can anyone shed light on it for me? I've tried to search Google but don't seem to be phrasing it correctly to find the answer. I'm sure it has been discussed online in many places, I just can't find those places.

Mods, was not sure where to put this so feel free to move it if there is somewhere better suited.

osarusan

Mary and John's cats = they jointly own the same cats.

Mary's and John's cats = they individually own different cats.

Mary and John's wedding = one wedding - they married each other.

Mary's and John's weddings = they married different people.

Mary's and John's wedding = ugly sound.

maudgonner

Ant and Dec's Saturday Night Takeaway -> so the second option is correct.


All life's lessons can be learned from Ant & Dec. :pac:

Eamondomc

_Jamie_ wrote: »

A grammatical thing I've been wondering about for a while that maybe people can help me with. It's not of great importance, it's just something that been niggling for a while now.

If you were at the wedding of Mary and John, and you wanted to, say, pop some photos of the day up on Facebook, would you entitle the album 'Mary's and John's Wedding' or 'Mary and John's wedding'. I used to always go with the former. But I then started to doubt myself on it because pretty much everyone I know seems to go with the latter. So I've started going with that. It just seems like the latter way is treating them like a compound!

Can anyone shed light on it for me? I've tried to search Google but don't seem to be phrasing it correctly to find the answer. I'm sure it has been discussed online in many places, I just can't find those places.

Mods, was not sure where to put this so feel free to move it if there is somewhere better suited.

Not an English expert, but I would think either would be correct, English is complicated and many versions of texts and phrasing of the same thing are correct I think.

maudgonner

osarusan wrote: »

Mary and John's cats = the jointly own the same cats.

Mary's and John's cats = they individually own different cats.

The correct phrasing here is: Cats' Mary and John. Cats have slaves, not owners.

crosstownk

One wedding so for me it's Mary and John's.

Just don't invite me. I don't need the expense.

Atari Jaguar

Eamondomc wrote: »

Not an English expert, but I would think either would be correct, English is complicated and many versions of texts and phrasing of the same thing are correct I think.

No. Mary and John's is correct.

Fleawuss

The patriarchy would give possession to the male ownership and put the apostrophe after the male name. The age of equality would give it to both. The current age of post truth misandry would simply call it Mary's wedding.

The scary thing is the above bollixology makes sense.

PS call it The Wedding of my friends Mary and John.

Eamondomc

Another way to put it without the 's would be to say, some pictures from the wedding of Mary and John, also correct I'd say.

Dr Jakub

'Mary's and John's Wedding' doesn't sound right at all.

_Jamie_

osarusan wrote: »

Mary and John's wedding = one wedding - they married each other.

I think this is the confusion. It's one wedding but it belongs to both of them. They both possess it. Even being married, they are two. :pac: But the consensus is very much the latter, here and everywhere, so I think I need to adopt if fully and not doubt it any more.

Collie D

Weren't John and Mary the couple who were always fighting in Father Ted? The marriage is doomed

NickNickleby

Here's my take on it. There's a couple I know. Jim and Mary. I sometimes call down to Jim and Mary's place for a visit. To me 'Jim and Mary' is like some sort of collective noun. So the apostrophe is at the end of the collective noun. My other acquaintances, Eileen and Peter live up the road from me. Sometimes I call up to Eileen and Peter's place for a cuppa. So why do I put Jim first in that example and Eileen in the second. Well, I knew Jim before he met Mary and Eileen before she met Peter.

Funnily enough, I know another couple, Walter and Amy. In conversation with my wife, we refer to them as Walter and Amy, but if either of us is going across the road to them, we both say we're heading over to Amy's house, eg to see if the water is gone. But that's probably because we see her more than him. Although if I'm specifically going to speak to Walter, I'd say 'heading over to Walter'.

So, there you have it. couples lose their individuality , same as parents (Jamies' dad).

Nick (not Jamies' dad)

Shannon757

One I've always wondered was what's the plural of "date of birth"

Is it;

"Dates of birth"
"Dates of births"
"Date of births"

For referring to a group mind, not one person with multiple birthdays

The flying mouse

Correct punctuation.

Difference between helping your uncle, Jack, off a horse and helping your uncle jack off a horse.

maudgonner

Shannon757 wrote: »

One I've always wondered was what's the plural of "date of birth"

Is it;

"Dates of birth"
"Dates of births"
"Date of births"

For referring to a group mind, not one person with multiple birthdays

I'd say dates of birth for that one.

The ones I hate are Trades Union and Courts Martial. Just sound so wrong.

Eamondomc

Shannon757 wrote: »

One I've always wondered was what's the plural of "date of birth"

Is it;

"Dates of birth"
"Dates of births"
"Date of births"

For referring to a group mind, not one person with multiple birthdays

I told you somewhere you needed to be studying, the days your teachers were on strike, do you remember that, was I right or what?

Shannon757

Eamondomc wrote: »

I told you somewhere you needed to be studying, the days your teachers were on strike, do you remember that, was I right or what?

This stuff doesn't come up when learning Shakespeare

johnnyskeleton

Johnnys always running around, trying to find certainty.

Mary counts the walls; she says he tires instantly.

crosstownk

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Johnnys always running around

Condoms can run?

osarusan

osarusan wrote: »

Mary and John's cats = they jointly own the same cats.

Mary's and John's cats = they individually own different cats.

Mary and John's wedding = one wedding - they married each other.

Mary's and John's weddings = they married different people.

Mary's and John's wedding = ugly sound.

Holy shíte, first response in an After Hours thread is not only relevant to OP's question, but the best answer possible.

Today is a good day.

_Jamie_

Shannon757 wrote: »

One I've always wondered was what's the plural of "date of birth"

Is it;

"Dates of birth"
"Dates of births"
"Date of births"

For referring to a group mind, not one person with multiple birthdays

Dates of birth, I think!

_Jamie_

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Johnnys always running around, trying to find certainty.

Mary counts the walls; she says he tires instantly.

Forget osarusan's response, THIS is the post of the thread.

Eamondomc

crosstownk wrote: »

Condoms can run?

Some of us found that out years ago, to our cost!

osarusan

stankratz wrote: »

Holy shíte, first response in an After Hours thread is not only relevant to OP's question, but the best answer possible.

Today is a good day.

_Jamie_ wrote: »

Forget osarusan's response, THIS is the post of the thread.

:mad:

The King of Moo

English teacher/pedant here.

Both are correct, though "Mary and John's wedding" is more common and considered more "standard" because

a) it sounds better to most pairs of ears and,

b) it's clear it's the wedding of both of them, so it's not necessary to add 's to "Mary."

The King of Moo

A thought:

Why not take the third option and go all Latin with "the wedding of John and Mary?"

That construction is normally overly-formal in modern English, but I think it's appropriate for such grand an occasion as a wedding.

The King of Moo

Shannon757 wrote: »

One I've always wondered was what's the plural of "date of birth"

Is it;

"Dates of birth"
"Dates of births"
"Date of births"

For referring to a group mind, not one person with multiple birthdays

Definitely "dates of birth."
When you pluralise a noun+of+noun phrase, you generally pluralise the first noun, as generally that's the thing there's more than one of, and the second noun is generally just defining that first noun, which is the main one.

For example, if you wanted to refer to multiple Catholic churches, you could call them "houses of worship" (though of course you'd do the same to refer to different churches of different religions/denominations).
"House of worships" would sound like a single church of many faiths. Equally "date of births" would sound like a day which featured multiple births which were important to you.

By the way, I usually multiquote in these situations, but I'm a little distracted.

One of my bugbears is Sister/Brother in Laws, when it should be Sisters/Brothers in Law.

mad muffin

It's actually John and Mary's.

Omackeral

You can buy tin's of bean's in my local shop.

Omackeral

Also, what if it's the wedding of someone called James. How do you go about writing that? There's a stop on the red Luas line called James's (as in the hospital). Doesn't look right but then when I looked it up before, James's Street is the given location and the hospital is called St. James's, even on their website, which is curiously www.stjames.ie

The King of Moo

Omackeral wrote: »

Also, what if it's the wedding of someone called James. How do you go about writing that? There's a stop on the red Luas line called James's (as in the hospital). Doesn't look right but then when I looked it up before, James's Street is the given location and the hospital is called St. James's, even on their website, which is curiously www.stjames.ie

Both "James' wedding" and "James's wedding" are considered correct, but the consensus is leaning towards the latter as being preferable, due to its greater clarity. Personally, I prefer the former as it looks more elegant.

maudgonner

Omackeral wrote: »

Also, what if it's the wedding of someone called James. How do you go about writing that?

That's why Jesus never got married. They didn't know how to write the invitations. True story.

The King of Moo

maudgonner wrote: »

That's why Jesus never got married. They didn't know how to write the invitations. True story.

"Have you found Judas's seat at the table?"

"Jesus, I haven't found Judas's, but I have found James's!"

"Jesus! Judas's just after arriving, and he's brought the two Jameses!"

Pherekydes

Has anyone mentioned Stephenses'eses Day yet?

evolving_doors

Pherekydes wrote: »

Has anyone mentioned Stephenses'eses Day yet?

He was brought into St. James' Hospital.. no wait He was brought into St. James's Hospital... no wait St. James Hospital..

ahh shur just go with the colloquial "St. James'es'es Hospital"

Annasopra

Omackeral wrote: »

Also, what if it's the wedding of someone called James. How do you go about writing that? There's a stop on the red Luas line called James's (as in the hospital). Doesn't look right but then when I looked it up before, James's Street is the given location and the hospital is called St. James's, even on their website, which is curiously www.stjames.ie

Sure it's like St Stephens's Day

_Jamie_

Yeah, I can totally see that even though either way is technically correct, 'Mary and John's wedding' is far nicer on the tongue. 'Mary's and John's weddings' from the second post doesn't sound much better but I suppose there is no way around thart one. TBH, I could still see people saying it as 'Mary and John's weddings' even if talking about their separate weddings.

mad muffin

How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?