Dublin congestion charge - would it help? [see post #7]

L1011

Sam Russell wrote: »

Option 3.

Levy all private off street parking spaces within the canals that are used for all day parking. [Residents parking would excluded]. If you cannot park, you cannot commute by car.

Levy them in what manner? Most of them are private carparks that charge already - are you intending to put a racking price in after a certain level of usage? It is a myth that there are large quantities of employer provided spaces (recent planning has ensured this - blocks build for 800 staff have 60 spaces etc) and most of those employers would pay whatever it takes for the key employees that get them anyway

There is no capacity on peak services in to the city on most routes. You can apply all the stick you want and people are not going to change from cars because there is nothing for them to change *to*.

Add a thousand P+R spaces at Red Cow and the trams inbound at peak will still be crush full and nobody extra *can* use them. Make Navan Road Parkway free and the trains will still be crush full and nobody extra can use them

There needs to be more buses on core routes, more express buses from outer suburbs that run set down only after a certain point (replaced with said extra buses) due to ridiculous journey times, more commuter rail capacity and more Luas capacity - this is next to impossible to provide on the Red Line though.

Those in favour of punitive approaches have forgotten that the carrot needs to exist - Taxsaver et al are great if you can use them, but the capacity is not there.

Deedsie wrote: »

Ah come on Marno, we need to move on from single occupant private motor cars during peak hours much more urgently than moving away from buses.

And the only way to do this is by providing an alternative - because there is no capacity.

markpb

Deedsie wrote:

Ah come on Marno, we need to move on from single occupant private motor cars during peak hours much more urgently than moving away from buses.

Maybe the two are linked?

Sam Russell

The Port Tunnel is priced to discourage car commuting into the city. Many public servants have free car parking - maybe that is a starting point. Just look at Kevin St Garda station for 'free parking'.

Controlling parking must be possible, but it would have to be introduced gradually - like they are doing with the 30 kph limit. Maybe start with getting rid of some of the on-street parking that adds to congestion. Northumberlad Road has paid parking in the bus lane!

If buses travelled at twice the speed, there would be twice the capacity, and it is private cars, both in jams and parked, that cause much of the slowdown.

I know many people have no choice but to commute by car, but many could use public transport. I heard of someone who took 2 hrs to go from Sallins to Sandymount by car, but can now go by PPT service in just over an hour. He is delighted. DU and MN would be needed to start changing commuter pattern.

I would think a greater subvention for PT would be the direction to go. The continual rise in fares does not help the cause of getting people to forgo the convenience of the car.

L1011

PPT is a new service with new capacity. Its a pretty bad example for the idea that existing capacity can help. Many people will take longer in a car versus the feeling of compressive asphyxia.

Bray Head

Congestion charges are expensive to run. From memory I think the London costs one third of what it takes in just to run. So this would be a big inefficiency.

I would much prefer to see road pricing implemented nationally. A per-km charge to drive everywhere, which starts at a very low level and steeply increases for urban areas at peak times. Ideally this would replace excise and could be used as a credit against motor tax.

Sadly this would never get past the civil liberties crew and could also run foul of EU law.

In the meantime I am not sure there is an easy solution for Dublin. The congestion is not just limited to the centre, or to traffic driving to and from it.

ncounties

Reviving this thread as it's come up in the Metrolink thread.

"Transport for London (TfL) reported that the charge reduced traffic by 15% and congestion – that is, the extra time a trip would take because of traffic – by 30%." (source).

Although it is not the silver bullet to our problems, this coupled with a simultaneous significant reduction in parking spaces in the city centre could lead to vast improvements in the city centre.

prunudo

If it is implemented, it needs to be done in conjunction with increased public transport capacity. You can't just remove a mode of commuting and not have a reliable alternative.

LeinsterDub

prunudo wrote: »

If it is implemented, it needs to be done in conjunction with increased public transport capacity. You can't just remove a mode of commuting and not have a reliable alternative.

We've limited road capacity. This is exactly what has to happen. Road spaces needs to be given to public transport, cycling and walking. Maybe a congestion charge is the last thing to do but it's part of a whole series that should happen.

Thinkingaboutit

LeinsterDub wrote: »

We've limited road capacity. This is exactly what has to happen. Road spaces needs to be given to public transport, cycling and walking. Maybe a congestion charge is the last thing to do but it's part of a whole series that should happen.

One really necessary thing for walking is to ensure that all major junctions have lights at each part of the junction. Now lots of them have a pedestrian crossing at maybe one or another part of the junction. New York City can have lights at every junction (I know the gridiron pattern makes it more straightforward and roundabouts with lights can result in extra congestion), so surely Dublin could get that.

LeinsterDub

Thinkingaboutit wrote: »

One really necessary thing for walking is to ensure that all major junctions have lights at each part of the junction. Now lots of them have a pedestrian crossing at maybe one or another part of the junction. New York City can have lights at every junction (I know the gridiron pattern makes it more straightforward and roundabouts with lights can result in extra congestion), so surely Dublin could get that.

Forget lights. They are traffic lights and are used control traffic. Zerba crossings at all but the most dangerous junctions please and those lights should default to green for people walking

prunudo

LeinsterDub wrote: »

We've limited road capacity. This is exactly what has to happen. Road spaces needs to be given to public transport, cycling and walking. Maybe a congestion charge is the last thing to do but it's part of a whole series that should happen.

Absolutely, maybe it could be implemented along side the roll out of Bus Connects.
A mate of mine drives into the city every day, I think he's wrong for doing it but it says a lot for the alternatives when he'd rather sit in his car for 1hr 30 in the evenings than take public transport.

magicbastarder

prunudo wrote: »

If it is implemented, it needs to be done in conjunction with increased public transport capacity.

if you increased the speed at which public transport can move by removing the moving roadblocks, you would automatically (albeit theoretically) increase capacity.
in that if buses were to move, say, 20% faster, they'd be able to perform 20% more journeys in a day. that obviously comes with a caveat of timetables having to be shuffled to allow for this, but in rush hour, timetables are probably a work of hopeful fiction anyway.

ncounties

If it is implemented, it needs to be done in conjunction with increased public transport capacity. You can't just remove a mode of commuting and not have a reliable alternative.

The purpose of congestion charging is reducing unnecessary journeys - i.e. a journey that can be walked, cycled or using existing public transport. If anything, it will deter those that live close to the zone, as opposed to those that commute longer distances into Dublin by car.

Zebra3

Remove dedicated car space and reallocate it to dedicate and safe cycling space.

prunudo

ncounties wrote: »

The purpose of congestion charging is reducing unnecessary journeys - i.e. a journey that can be walked, cycled or using existing public transport. If anything, it will deter those that live close to the zone, as opposed to those that commute longer distances into Dublin by car.

Naively never thought it from that point. If I lived in a city I would never think of using a car to move around.

MJohnston

I posted similar before in a ****ehouse of a thread called "M50 Congestion" but perhaps it is more appropriate here.

The simplest way to state the cycle of car abuse we're trapped in is:

1. Before you remove cars, car drivers need better transport options.
2. Before you can add better transport options, you need to remove cars from the roads.

Now, some will say that Metro or Luas are the solutions, but any beyond those already proposed are 10-plus-years solutions, at the very best. We need solutions that will start working within months, not decades. What we do have coming sooner is BusConnects, which is something that absolutely needs car reduction methods attached to be a success. There are also DART upgrades, but they're basically all capacity changes, rather than drastically expanding the reach of public transport.

Dublin is also heavily reliant upon on-road public transport, there is no escaping this anytime before those (still cancellable) Metro trains start accepting passengers.

So, if you come back to those 2 steps above, it's pretty clear that it's physically impossible to make Dublin public transport better without removing cars. But it's completely possible to remove cars before transport is better, in order to make it better.

That's the only pragmatic short-to-medium term way out of that destructive cycle.

What I think needs to happen, and could happen with a strong will, within the next year or two:
1. Phased removal of non-residential permit-based street parking within Dublin City centre.
2. Actually go ahead with the introduction of levies on private office car parks, and increase levies on MSCPs.
3. Legalisation of e-scooters, with an invitation to tender for rental firms like Lime/Bird/etc.
4. Upgrades to Dublin Bikes and Bleeperbikes to see the introduction of e-Bike fleets alongside the manual pedal cycles.
5. Expansion of the Dublin Bikes station network.
6. Rapid and increased spending on segregated cycling/scooter infrastructure throughout the city.
7. Acceleration of the BusConnects schedule where possible.
8. Immediate, accelerated funding of Metrolink.
9. Massively increased pedestrianisation throughout Dublin city centre.
10. Automated, widespread enforcement of bus lanes and gates throughout the city (and country).

LeinsterDub

MJohnston wrote: »

What I think needs to happen, and could happen with a strong will, within the next year or two:
1. Phased removal of non-residential permit-based street parking within Dublin City centre.
2. Actually go ahead with the introduction of levies on private office car parks, and increase levies on MSCPs.
3. Legalisation of e-scooters, with an invitation to tender for rental firms like Lime/Bird/etc.
4. Upgrades to Dublin Bikes and Bleeperbikes to see the introduction of e-Bike fleets alongside the manual pedal cycles.
5. Expansion of the Dublin Bikes station network.
6. Rapid and increased spending on segregated cycling/scooter infrastructure throughout the city.
7. Acceleration of the BusConnects schedule where possible.
8. Immediate, accelerated funding of Metrolink.
9. Massively increased pedestrianisation throughout Dublin city centre.
10. Automated, widespread enforcement of bus lanes and gates throughout the city (and country).

100% with the addition of this as the first step

0. Immediate crackdown on illegal parking.

If people had to actually park legally a lot of the "I'm just nipping 2 minutes down the road" trips become I've to walk 4 minutes to get my car , drive for 4 minutes , spend 5 minutes finding some where to park and walk 3 minutes to my destination or I could just walk the 6 minutes to the shop

Sam Russell

LeinsterDub wrote: »

100% with the addition of this as the first step

0. Immediate crackdown on illegal parking.

If people had to actually park legally a lot of the "I'm just nipping 2 minutes down the road" trips become I've to walk 4 minutes to get my car , drive for 4 minutes , spend 5 minutes finding some where to park and walk 3 minutes to my destination or I could just walk the 6 minutes to the shop

Yesterday, I was walking towards Sydney Parade Dart station and there was a security van collecting the takings illegally parked on the double yellows - so what is unusual in that? Well a few metres up from that vehicle was a Garda van parked on the double yellows, opposite a continuous white line, and parked with two wheels on the pavement. The Garda could have parked an extra few metres away quite legally.

So if the Garda habitually park illegally, what hope is there?

Thelonious Monk

MJohnston wrote: »

3. Legalisation of e-scooters, with an invitation to tender for rental firms like Lime/Bird/etc.

These are all great ideas but lol at the above. Never going to happen, Ireland hates cyclists and eScooters seem to be loathed just as much. All it would take is someone to call Joe Duffy complaining about them and they'd be banned immediately, if that hasn't happened already. Someone got 5 penalty points and a €300 fine for being on an eScooter a few days ago. Points on his driving licence!
Nothing will change regarding cars in Dublin, too many vested interests, the only thing that will lessen congestion is the next recession. I think it's purely down to most people not wanting any change.

MJohnston

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

These are all great ideas but lol at the above. Never going to happen, Ireland hates cyclists and eScooters seem to be loathed just as much. All it would take is someone to call Joe Duffy complaining about them and they'd be banned immediately, if that hasn't happened already. Someone got 5 penalty points and a €300 fine for being on an eScooter a few days ago. Points on his driving licence!
Nothing will change regarding cars in Dublin, too many vested interests, the only thing that will lessen congestion is the next recession. I think it's purely down to most people not wanting any change.

So you're complaining that things won't change and laughing at ideas that would change things? This is part of the problem.

JohnC.

Sam Russell wrote: »

Yesterday, I was walking towards Sydney Parade Dart station and there was a security van collecting the takings illegally parked on the double yellows - so what is unusual in that? Well a few metres up from that vehicle was a Garda van parked on the double yellows, opposite a continuous white line, and parked with two wheels on the pavement. The Garda could have parked an extra few metres away quite legally.

So if the Garda habitually park illegally, what hope is there?

I don’t know about the Gardai, but the guy in the van was probably legal, wasn’t he? Commercial vehicles can park on them for up to 30 minutes as long as they are actively doing something, IIRC.

Thelonious Monk

MJohnston wrote: »

So you're complaining that things won't change and laughing at ideas that would change things? This is part of the problem.

The will and leadership politically are not there to change things. We can't even build a bus lane for God's sake without half the city going nuts. It will never change. I am not complaining, I just cycle in and out of work regardless of the unpleasantness.

Sam Russell

JohnC. wrote: »

I don’t know about the Gardai, but the guy in the van was probably legal, wasn’t he? Commercial vehicles can park on them for up to 30 minutes as long as they are actively doing something, IIRC.

No, the van was a security van parked quite illegally on at least three counts, as was the Garda van.

Last Stop

MJohnston wrote: »

I posted similar before in a ****ehouse of a thread called "M50 Congestion" but perhaps it is more appropriate here.

The simplest way to state the cycle of car abuse we're trapped in is:

1. Before you remove cars, car drivers need better transport options.
2. Before you can add better transport options, you need to remove cars from the roads.

Now, some will say that Metro or Luas are the solutions, but any beyond those already proposed are 10-plus-years solutions, at the very best. We need solutions that will start working within months, not decades. What we do have coming sooner is BusConnects, which is something that absolutely needs car reduction methods attached to be a success. There are also DART upgrades, but they're basically all capacity changes, rather than drastically expanding the reach of public transport.

Dublin is also heavily reliant upon on-road public transport, there is no escaping this anytime before those (still cancellable) Metro trains start accepting passengers.

So, if you come back to those 2 steps above, it's pretty clear that it's physically impossible to make Dublin public transport better without removing cars. But it's completely possible to remove cars before transport is better, in order to make it better.

That's the only pragmatic short-to-medium term way out of that destructive cycle.

What I think needs to happen, and could happen with a strong will, within the next year or two:
1. Phased removal of non-residential permit-based street parking within Dublin City centre.
2. Actually go ahead with the introduction of levies on private office car parks, and increase levies on MSCPs.
3. Legalisation of e-scooters, with an invitation to tender for rental firms like Lime/Bird/etc.
4. Upgrades to Dublin Bikes and Bleeperbikes to see the introduction of e-Bike fleets alongside the manual pedal cycles.
5. Expansion of the Dublin Bikes station network.
6. Rapid and increased spending on segregated cycling/scooter infrastructure throughout the city.
7. Acceleration of the BusConnects schedule where possible.
8. Immediate, accelerated funding of Metrolink.
9. Massively increased pedestrianisation throughout Dublin city centre.
10. Automated, widespread enforcement of bus lanes and gates throughout the city (and country).

You constantly suggest that it’s a binary choice between removing cars and improvements to public transport when that isn’t the case. There are loads of examples that would significantly reduce the number of cars on the roads around Dublin without necessarily removing cars.

Then you list a series of 10 “objectives” that you suggest would be possible within the next 2 years without any consideration of lead in times for the majority of the list. While I accept that some of the proposals on the list could be implemented, the majority cannot within the next 2 years and its extremely unlikely in an election year that the others will be.

Yes there is a problem with congestion in Dublin but unfortunately the solution to that is more long term and throwing money at short terms measures is wasteful use of limited resources.

thenightman

Last Stop wrote: »

You constantly suggest that it’s a binary choice between removing cars and improvements to public transport when that isn’t the case. There are loads of examples that would significantly reduce the number of cars on the roads around Dublin without necessarily removing cars.

Then you list a series of 10 “objectives” that you suggest would be possible within the next 2 years without any consideration of lead in times for the majority of the list. While I accept that some of the proposals on the list could be implemented, the majority cannot within the next 2 years and its extremely unlikely in an election year that the others will be.

Yes there is a problem with congestion in Dublin but unfortunately the solution to that is more long term and throwing money at short terms measures is wasteful use of limited resources.

Automated enforcement of bus lane/clearway encroachment could be done relatively quickly if there was political will, and it would make a massive positive impact on most bus journeys, overnight.


Same with the escooters idea, madness they are being discouraged at a time when it's generally quicker to walk in the city centre than use public transport due to cars taking up all road space.

MJohnston

Ah fúck, Last Stop is in this thread? Unfollowing this one lads, see yis elsewhere

magicbastarder

Last Stop wrote: »

There are loads of examples that would significantly reduce the number of cars on the roads around Dublin without necessarily removing cars.

um. should i ask?

Last Stop

magicbastarder wrote: »

um. should i ask?

Navan rail line
Lucan Luas
Finglas Luas
Metrolink
Dart Expansion
Buying additional rail fleet

However, there are even quicker projects such as building new stations like Pelletstown or simply opening the already built Kissoge station.

spacetweek

Last Stop wrote: »

Navan rail line
Lucan Luas
Finglas Luas
Metrolink
Dart Expansion
Buying additional rail fleet

However, there are even quicker projects such as building new stations like Pelletstown or simply opening the already built Kissoge station.

On their own, they wouldn’t reduce car traffic, and certainly not in the centre.
If you built all those but without car restrictions, there’s be a huge increase in rail use but the same amount of car traffic. We want less traffic overall.

Pelletstown wont make a difference to anywhere other than Ashtown area and only if Maynooth is electrified. Nobody at all lives near Kishogue.

LeinsterDub

Last Stop wrote: »

Navan rail line
Lucan Luas
Finglas Luas
Metrolink
Dart Expansion
Buying additional rail fleet

However, there are even quicker projects such as building new stations like Pelletstown or simply opening the already built Kissoge station.

Navan rail line - at least 5 years away
Lucan Luas - at least 10 years away
Finglas Luas - at least 10 years away
Metrolink - at least 8 years away
Dart Expansion - at least 5 years away
Buying additional rail fleet - at least 2 years away