140 rules, cramped accommodation and cash in hand

athtrasna

'Must shower at least once a day… wear deodorant' – The 108 'crazy' rules these "tenants" are forced to live by

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/must-shower-at-least-once-a-day-wear-deodorant-the-108-crazy-rules-these-tenants-are-forced-to-live-by-35255339.html

This Miss Firmo character is some piece of work. Insisting that "tenants" speak English in the house while her rules are in very bad English. Rules allegedly signed off by the RTB but that's a tall tale!

newacc2015

These werent tenants. They were subletting. The article doesnt really make that clear

athtrasna

newacc2015 wrote: »

These werent tenants. They were subletting. The article doesnt really make that clear

Even for licensees those rules are draconian!

newacc2015

athtrasna wrote: »

newacc2015 wrote: »

These werent tenants. They were subletting. The article doesnt really make that clear

Even for licensees those rules are draconian!

My issue is that we have another article bad mouthing the rental industry. Yet this is not a tenancy agreement and the person giving the rules isn't a landlord. The article didn't make it clear that it was a licensee agreement

If you don't like the rules, don't rent from there. I agree some of the rules are a bit off the wall. But are they any worse than some of the accommodation provided by the catholic church and it's charities here? Eg in a double room they give you a single bed so you can't have people over. A lot of student accommodation limits the amount of guests you can have over, heating times, restrictive house rules.

If you don't like the house rules, don't live there.

seamus

I had a scan through them last night; the vast majority of those rules aren't at all crazy. And for the most part are basic human decency things that shouldn't normally need to be written down.

- Don't open post not addressed to you
- Don't leave food in the sink
- Keep the fridge clear of rotten food
- Clean the microwave after you use it
- Don't walk around naked
- Don't put anything but toilet paper down the toilet

This is all very normal stuff, simple human decency when house sharing. I also don't see the problem with asking people to shower daily and use deodorant. Nobody likes a smelly housemate.

Sure, there are a couple of over-the-top items like requiring "approval" for visitors and an "interview" a month in advance of a partner staying over. But you can see how someone who's a complete control freak would think that's "reasonable".

The real "crazy" thing here is the fact that she's written it all down. She clearly doesn't have native english. Most likely someone who is very particular, possibly even OCD, who has decided to sublet the apartment and has felt the need to run it like a boarding house in order to get things the way she likes it. Or maybe she's only been able to attract nightmare lodgers, so feels the need to be draconian.

murphaph

Unfortunately a scan through these very boards reveals that many slob housemates can't even live up to the obvious rules like not leaving your dirty dishes in the sink.

murphaph

murphaph wrote: »

Unfortunately a scan through these very boards reveals that many slob housemates can't even live up to the obvious rules like not leaving your dirty dishes in the sink.

Some one commented recently they don't like housemates heating water for anything as there's an electric shower.

Iirc the same someone showers once every few days or something rank like that.

Michael D Not Higgins

seamus wrote: »

Most likely someone who is very particular, possibly even OCD, who has decided to sublet the apartment and has felt the need to run it like a boarding house in order to get things the way she likes it. Or maybe she's only been able to attract nightmare lodgers, so feels the need to be draconian.

It doesn't marry with the state of the house though. If they're so particular, why is the house covered in mould?

Augeo

Augeo wrote: »

Some one commented recently they don't like housemates heating water for anything as there's an electric shower.

Iirc the same someone showers once every few days or something rank like that.

It was me and you know it. What has not heating water got to do with a comment about washing dishes?

As for your second comment, nothing rank about but sadly you are conditioned to think this way like far too many others.

RandomAccess

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

It doesn't marry with the state of the house though. If they're so particular, why is the house covered in mould?

See rule 61, paragraph 4.
Always keep the window open during or after shower, except in winter.

I've lived with a housemate who destroyed his ensuite in black mold because he didn't ventilate properly. Guy was a doctor, an anaesthetist even.

I've also had to put up with a sewer blockage because someone flushed used teabags down the ensuite. They don't float well after use.

The rules for the most part are sensible, it's sad we need them at all.

Mrs OBumble

RandomAccess wrote: »

The rules for the most part are sensible, it's sad we need them at all.

In the part of the rental market where this person is operating, such rules often need to be written down, and spelled out to people.

I doubt very much that the place is "covered " in mould.

Michael D Not Higgins

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

In the part of the rental market where this person is operating, such rules often need to be written down, and spelled out to people.

I doubt very much that the place is "covered " in mould.

There's a video of the place in the article. There's mould from floor to ceiling all the way along the stairs.

...__...

Shouldn't this not wake up the government that the laws regarding licencees needs to be overhauled?
They have no protection for minimum standards in the property so essentially nothing can be done.
How sad is that in this day and age.

...__...

...__... wrote: »

Shouldn't this not wake up the government that the laws regarding licencees needs to be overhauled?
They have no protection for minimum standards in the property so essentially nothing can be done.
How sad is that in this day and age.

Leaving aside this over the top scenario a licensee is a guest in the persons home, why on earth should they get rights?

Any move to give them tenancy rights will be the end of people renting out rooms in their home and a large number of rooms will disappear off the rental market. No way on earth should the government be overhauling any laws regarding licensees.

brownej

Patrick Magnificent Vision wrote: »

Leaving aside this over the top scenario a licensee is a "paying" guest in the persons home, why on earth should they get rights?

Any move to give them tenancy rights will be the end of people renting out rooms in their home and a large number of rooms will disappear off the rental market. No way on earth should the government be overhauling any laws regarding licensees.

Fixed that there for you

Cuddlesworth

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

There's a video of the place in the article. There's mould from floor to ceiling all the way along the stairs.

Outside wall in a house with only 2 hours of heating a day and from the number of beds in a single room, I'm going to assume a pretty large number of tenants showering, cooking and washing clothes in all day. Bit surprised it's not worse.

The article is pretty bad. The rules are pretty reasonable. It both says that the tenants are given the rules when moving in and then goes onto say that cameras are not allowed unless the tenants are informed of it. Which they clearly are, its in the rules. The people themselves have no rights and at 380 a month in Cabra, your going to attract a pretty colorful mix of people.

pilly

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Outside wall in a house with only 2 hours of heating a day and from the number of beds in a single room, I'm going to assume a pretty large number of tenants showering, cooking and washing clothes in all day. Bit surprised it's not worse.

The article is pretty bad. The rules are pretty reasonable. It both says that the tenants are given the rules when moving in and then goes onto say that cameras are not allowed unless the tenants are informed of it. Which they clearly are, its in the rules. The people themselves have no rights and at 380 a month in Cabra, your going to attract a pretty colorful mix of people.

Yes but by the time you get the rules you've already paid a deposit and month up front. I'm sure she doesn't show them the rules before they move in.

Michael D Not Higgins

pilly wrote: »

Yes but by the time you get the rules you've already paid a deposit and month up front. I'm sure she doesn't show them the rules before they move in.

And probably considering the rental market at the moment, they accepted the place over email without so much as seeing a picture of the place.

_Kaiser_

pilly wrote: »

Yes but by the time you get the rules you've already paid a deposit and month up front. I'm sure she doesn't show them the rules before they move in.

Also, what's with this nonsense of having to find a replacement before you move out, and not being allowed to serve notice/move out over the winter period?

While I agree that many of the "rules" are common sense it's both hilarious and disturbing (but not surprising) that some here think this woman's "rules" are justified and acceptable.

There's definitely something dodgy going on with the insistence on not entering or leaving by the front door or answering it (or even being visible to people calling) etc... my guess is this woman's LL doesn't know what she's been up to themselves!

pilly

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Also, what's with this nonsense of having to find a replacement before you move out, and not being allowed to serve notice/move out over the winter period?

While I agree that many of the "rules" are common sense it's both hilarious and disturbing (but not surprising) that some here think this woman's "rules" are justified and acceptable.

There's definitely something dodgy going on with the insistence on not entering or leaving by the front door or answering it (or even being visible to people calling) etc... my guess is this woman's LL doesn't know what she's been up to themselves!

I think it's very disturbing that people think this list is acceptable and I'm so glad I don't have to house share (yet!).

Cuddlesworth

pilly wrote: »

Yes but by the time you get the rules you've already paid a deposit and month up front. I'm sure she doesn't show them the rules before they move in.

You're making a assumption. There are a lot of people in Dublin who would snap your hand off at 380 bills included, you don't need those tactics for get people in.

Michael D Not Higgins

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

You're making a assumption. There are a lot of people in Dublin who would snap your hand off at 380 bills included, you don't need those tactics for get people in.

I have noticed more and more of these multiple-beds-per-room places popping up in the media as the housing crisis continues. They've always been around though, I remember in a block a friend of mine was staying in Dublin once around 6/7 years ago, there was a group of 6 Brazilians staying in a two bed flat on the same floor. Thankfully they were quiet but I doubt the apartment survived well.

In those days, that two bed was 1k/month so they were paying 166 each. You can guarantee the foreigners here to work are the ones suffering under these conditions today too. You're not going to find many Irish people putting up with this sh­it.

newacc2015

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

It doesn't marry with the state of the house though. If they're so particular, why is the house covered in mould?

There is only so much the owner/landlord can do to prevent mould. IMO about 85/90% of the time mould is generally down to the tenants. Like the women on here this week on about how bad the mould was in her apartment. Yet she had the extractor fan off in the bathroom and the vents closed in the bedroom. Where is all the moist air supposed to go? There is no magic solution, it has to escape

The amount of times I have gone into apartments and seen tenants moaning about the mould and what will the landlord do about it? But the tenants are turning off extractor fans and closing vents. You can only blame the landlord for so much

pilly

newacc2015 wrote: »

There is only so much the owner/landlord can do to prevent mould. IMO about 85/90% of the time mould is generally down to the tenants. Like the women on here this week on about how bad the mould was in her apartment. Yet she had the extractor fan off in the bathroom and the vents closed in the bedroom. Where is all the moist air supposed to go? There is no magic solution, it has to escape

The amount of times I have gone into apartments and seen tenants moaning about the mould and what will the landlord do about it? But the tenants are turning off extractor fans and closing vents. You can only blame the landlord for so much

In the particular case we're talking about the LL is not to blame, it's the lady sub-letting to 6 other people. Too many people in a house along with lack of heat will definitely cause mould.

Graham

pilly wrote: »

In the particular case we're talking about the LL is not to blame, it's the lady sub-letting to 6 other people. Too many people in a house along with lack of heat will definitely cause mould.

This woman has already been ordered to pay around €40k in rent arrears by the RTB so the real landlords who own the property (and previous property) are getting royally stiffed.

pilly

Graham wrote: »

This woman has already been ordered to pay around €40k in rent arrears by the RTB so the real landlords who own the property (and previous property) are getting royally stiffed.

€40k really? And she hasn't been evicted yet?

gctest50

pilly wrote: »

€40k really? And she hasn't been evicted yet?

Yip, Ms Suzi will have no green card if she keeps at this craic :

http://bit.ly/2gKxAuu

A number of orders have been issued against Ms Medeiros by the Residential Tenancies Board.
In November 2014, an order was made for her to pay rent arrears in the sum of €33,484.62.

Meauldsegosha

An Irish Independent article so probably full of in accuracies.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/exclusive-meet-the-108-crazy-rule-woman-with-orders-of-almost-40k-in-rent-arrears-35260503.html

Graham

pilly wrote: »

€40k really? And she hasn't been evicted yet?

Correct.

Some poor landlord is going to have to try and put the property back together after she's gone on top of saying goodbye to a significant chunk of rent.

pilly

Graham wrote: »

Correct.

Some poor landlord is going to have to try and put the property back together after she's gone on top of saying goodbye to a significant chunk of rent.

So she's a fraudster as well as an evil bitch. And some people are saying it's acceptable to have these rules? :mad:

Graham

pilly wrote: »

So she's a fraudster as well as an evil bitch. And some people are saying it's acceptable to have these rules? :mad:

I'm not sure there's many people arguing the eviction rules are fair on landlords Pilly.

Stories of this particular woman have been reaching all over the place for a while by the looks of it:

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.e-dublin.com.br%2Fo-intercambio-me-fez-perceber-que-e-possivel-ser-feliz-sozinho%2F

...__...

Patrick Magnificent Vision wrote: »

Leaving aside this over the top scenario a licensee is a guest in the persons home, why on earth should they get rights?

Any move to give them tenancy rights will be the end of people renting out rooms in their home and a large number of rooms will disappear off the rental market. No way on earth should the government be overhauling any laws regarding licensees.

If you were unfortunate enough to have to stay in a room with 6 other people mold rolling off the wall and no idea if you would still be there next week you would really hope there was some safety net.
At least for minimum standards at the very least if your paying for something shouldn't it be to a standard?

Its because of "market rates aka greed" that these places thrive who can afford a double room in Lucan for 7-800 a month? or a single for 600? plus bills and taxi fare if your unfortunate enough to finish work after 1130 at night.
There is no proper transport in this city so anyone who works late in the city has to either live close and pay ridiculous rent or get a taxi home every night. and with rents in the suburbs at stupid amounts then that's not possible either.

Graham

...__... wrote: »

At least for minimum standards at the very least if your paying for something shouldn't it be to a standard?

There are minimum standards, they appear to be one of the many rules/laws being flouted in this case. Not by the real landlord I might add.

pilly

Graham wrote: »

I'm not sure there's many people arguing the eviction rules are fair on landlords Pilly.

Stories of this particular woman have been reaching all over the place for a while by the looks of it:

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.e-dublin.com.br%2Fo-intercambio-me-fez-perceber-que-e-possivel-ser-feliz-sozinho%2F

No, my point was some people earlier in this thread were saying that the rules (the 104) she had in place were reasonable and as licences the people staying there had no rights.

Mrs OBumble

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

You're not going to find many Irish people putting up with this sh­it.

Was it the Irish or the Scots who invented hot-boxing? We ain't seen nothing yet.

Graham

pilly wrote: »

No, my point was some people earlier in this thread were saying that the rules (the 104) she had in place were reasonable and as licences the people staying there had no rights.

Ahhh ok. I'd agree, the rules were nuts and would be enough to send most reasonable people running.

...__...

Graham wrote: »

There are minimum standards, they appear to be one of the many rules/laws being flouted in this case. Not by the real landlord I might add.

There is no legal requirement for your accommodation to meet minimum physical standards

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/sharing_accommodation_with_your_landlord.html

One of the caveats of sharing with a landlord or being a sub-tennant is there are no rules governing minimum standards

handlemaster

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/exclusive-meet-the-108-crazy-rule-woman-with-orders-of-almost-40k-in-rent-arrears-35260503.html


Its cases like this that bring the plight of landords to non landlords . Its near impossible to get rid of a tenant in ireland even one clearly abusing the lease they were given. But no new law will come into place so such tenants can be evicted easily as the general public dont see it and that means no votes.

Eimee90

I think its unbelievably controlling of someone to write a list like that. Controlling every aspect of their lives in that it seems

...__...

...__... wrote: »

If you were unfortunate enough to have to stay in a room with 6 other people mold rolling off the wall and no idea if you would still be there next week you would really hope there was some safety net.
At least for minimum standards at the very least if your paying for something shouldn't it be to a standard?

Nobody is forcing them to live there and while a licensee has no rights, they also (unlike a tenant) have no obligations and can simply up and leave a place as when they want with no notice or no contract to respect.

...__... wrote: »

Its because of "market rates aka greed" that these places thrive who can afford a double room in Lucan for 7-800 a month? or a single for 600? plus bills and taxi fare if your unfortunate enough to finish work after 1130 at night.
There is no proper transport in this city so anyone who works late in the city has to either live close and pay ridiculous rent or get a taxi home every night. and with rents in the suburbs at stupid amounts then that's not possible either.

Or get a car of course....

godtabh

Patrick Magnificent Vision wrote: »

Nobody is forcing them to live there and while a licensee has no rights, they also (unlike a tenant) have no obligations and can simply up and leave a place as when they want with no notice or no contract to respect.

In the current rental market I think that it is unfair to suggest that these people have a choice. Simple economics suggest that they dont.

the_syco

Regarding the bit under rule 72, of putting their property without notice into a hostel of her choosing; wow!

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

They've always been around though, I remember in a block a friend of mine was staying in Dublin once around 6/7 years ago, there was a group of 6 Brazilians staying in a two bed flat on the same floor.

Was that in Drumcondra, by any chance?

=-=

I wonder if any of those rules are actually enforceable, if they weren't agreed to by the licensees?

B.A._Baracus

How is she getting away with it? :pac:

I will admit I don't know much about the law when it comes to renting and things. But say I rent a 3 bedroom house and sub-let the two other rooms while the landlord hasn't got a clue. But then finds out... They can hand me a notice and evict me surely? Wouldnt there also be breaking the law aspect too? As you're illegally renting out rooms.

Just sounds so weird how people get away with it.

the_syco

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

They can hand me a notice and evict me surely? Wouldnt there also be breaking the law aspect too? As you're illegally renting out rooms.

They can start the eviction process, which may take months. In that time period, the landlords tenant may stop paying rent. If it's all cash in hand, the landlord may find it hard to prove that the tenant has anymore money than what they get on SW, and thus the landlord may have a hard time getting owed rent back.

Cuddlesworth

handlemaster wrote: »

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/exclusive-meet-the-108-crazy-rule-woman-with-orders-of-almost-40k-in-rent-arrears-35260503.html


Its cases like this that bring the plight of landords to non landlords . Its near impossible to get rid of a tenant in ireland even one clearly abusing the lease they were given. But no new law will come into place so such tenants can be evicted easily as the general public dont see it and that means no votes.

From the sounds of it, she has been evicted from a few property's.

...__...

Patrick Magnificent Vision wrote: »

Nobody is forcing them to live there and while a licensee has no rights, they also (unlike a tenant) have no obligations and can simply up and leave a place as when they want with no notice or no contract to respect.



Or get a car of course....

That should be addressed too there should be a minimum notice period albeit reduced say 2 weeks ample time to find an alternative.

Get a car how can a low paid worker afford the massive insurance premiums.
Not everyone is in the position of earning 35000 a year with a full licence when they arrive in Ireland.

godtabh

godtabh wrote: »

In the current rental market I think that it is unfair to suggest that these people have a choice. Simple economics suggest that they dont.

It's difficult no doubt but it's not impossible by any means especially if it's a room you are looking for rather than a full house/apartment.

...__... wrote: »

That should be addressed too there should be a minimum notice period albeit reduced say 2 weeks ample time to find an alternative.
.

This will never happen, you can't apply rules like this when they are living in a persons home. A person should have full control over their home and if they choose to rent a room they have and should retain the power to change their mind, get a different person if they don't like the person there etc etc.

As I said try to introduce this and it will do nothing but reduce the number of rooms being rented. The vast majority of people are reasonable anyway and give adequate notice to licensees, treat them with respect etc. But a bad licensee should not have any rights not even a days notice if the home owner is unhappy with them in their home.

...__...

Patrick Magnificent Vision wrote: »

It's difficult no doubt but it's not impossible by any means especially if it's a room you are looking for rather than a full house/apartment.



This will never happen, you can't apply rules like this when they are living in a persons home. A person should have full control over their home and if they choose to rent a room they have and should retain the power to change their mind, get a different person if they don't like the person there etc etc.

Don't get me wrong I'm not asking for reasons for eviction just a baseline of say 2 weeks for non anti social behavior where a person has a reasonable chance of finding a new home.

Do you not think its unjust that an owner occupier can throw someone out with 24 hours notice just because they don't like the way they dress for example?

...__...

...__... wrote: »

Don't get me wrong I'm not asking for reasons for eviction just a baseline of say 2 weeks for non anti social behavior where a person has a reasonable chance of finding a new home.

Do you not think its unjust that an owner occupier can throw someone out with 24 hours notice just because they don't like the way they dress for example?

As I said in my edit above the vast majority of people renting out a room will give adequate notice, a few off the wall cases are not a reason to go mad with regulations.

How many people are thrown out for the way they dress? Not a single licensee ever probably, as I said you don't make rules for things that will most likely never happen.

...__...

Patrick Magnificent Vision wrote: »

As I said in my edit above the vast majority of people renting out a room will give adequate notice, a few off the wall cases are not a reason to go mad with regulations.

But its the off the wall cases where people suffer the most.
Look at the original case here that woman will not give back the deposits and know there is f all anyone can do about it.
The tenants/licencees will be left with nothing but a bad experience.
Same for the landlord there should be no way someone can accrue more than one months rent in arrears without a change the locks scenario its not all poor tenants I know that.
The system is outdated and leaves too much ambiguity for people to take advantage on both sides.

Michael D Not Higgins

the_syco wrote: »

Was that in Drumcondra, by any chance?

No, the Liberties. Not that they're isolated incidents, I'm sure half the Brazilians in Dublin are in similar circumstances.