Potential domestic abuse next door

TheSegal

This could be the completely wrong forum to post in but i'm looking for advice on my neighbours. They argue daily at this stage, I live on the floor beneath them but they scream at each other so loudly I can hear them through the floor as clear as day. At first I felt nosey listening but it's so loud my housemates and I can't help but hear it.

As an example yesterday morning at 8:30 I heard the man shout at his GF/wife 'You've never supported me, not ****ing once, you always put me down at every opportunity' followed by slamming doors. The arguments always follow the same pattern, small indiscernible arguing followed by the guy storming to either his room or out of the apartment while screaming at her about her always putting him down. Then the girl and her friend/sister sit out on the balcony over my house smoking and giving out about who I can only assume is the guy who left.

I'm not sure is it due to the increased ad presence on TV that's making me think this or the severity of the arguing but should I report this as domestic abuse to the authoritys? I'm afraid of going up and knocking on their door due to the fear of them turning on me. I'm also not sure who is starting the argument so I don't want to just report either of them for abusing the other.

Can anybody help me because i'm afraid something bad is going to happen some time.

lifeandtimes

Unfortunately you can't report domestic abuse unless it's actually happened,sounds like shouting matches and by the sounds of it both are giving as good as there getting in the shouting match.

However as a tenant you have a right to quiet and peaceful dwelling and if this impacting on that right you can report it too your landlord or building management who will look into it for you.

Good luck oo

TheSegal

Thanks for the quick reply. Does that mean that I can not report any sort of domestic abuse unless I physically see either the guy or the girl abusing the other person either verbally or physically?

silverharp

it kind of sounds like they are well able for each other, I'd be on to them to keep it down and that its not fair to the neighbours to have to listen to their arguments, I'd be more worried if only one of the parties was shouting.

Xterminator

OP do you fear for the security of one of your neighbours, or are you unhappy at the noise/scene or do you think you can fix a dysfunctional relationship?

your scene above would in no way make ME think i needed to intervene or report this to the guards etc for the safety of either of the parties.

so what do you wish to achieve? you could anonymously drop a leaflet in the door when the partner is out. or invite her for a coffee and give advice but unsolicited advice could be unwelcome & misconstrued.

If its the disturbance that upsets you - then perhaps this is the wrong forum - so im going to assume thats not it.

Gatling

Sounds like two people that are either very unhappy or two people with communication issues or both ,
Id stay clear for the most part but I would make a complaint to the management company about the noise

Big Bag of Chips

It doesn't sound like domestic abuse. Just two people fighting, and one storming off to cool down. If the rows get very loud you could probably call the guards and report a domestic disturbance, but I wouldn't call it domestic violence. It sounds probable though that by the time the guards came out yer man would be gone and yer wan would be out on the balcony smoking.

Is there a management company that you can complain to about noise?

GingerLily

TheSegal wrote: »

Thanks for the quick reply. Does that mean that I can not report any sort of domestic abuse unless I physically see either the guy or the girl abusing the other person either verbally or physically?

What abuse do you think is going on? From the example you gave I actually am not sure.

Estrellita

Make a complaint to the management about the noise, make a record of times and dates it occurs. This doesn't sound like a case of abuse, but the fact they don't get along is not your problem.

seamus

It's good that you're vigilant and you should never let yourself become complacent.

But it doesn't sound like there's a physically abusive situation going on. They're clearly two hot heads who continually clash, but from your description have the sense to walk away to cool down rather than letting it continually escalate.

Ultimately the question is always about what you would hope to achieve. You can't stop them fighting. There doesn't appear to be any specific abuse going on (though one could make all sorts of philosophical analysis about that).
At best, you could make a report to the Gardai. However, general protocol in such reports, even when there is no evidence of violence, is to suspect the man or even force him to leave the property. So while your aim may be to simply draw their attention to the fact that their neighbours can hear them fighting, you could end up making a bad relationship into an even worse one.

You could try an anonymous, "Your neighbours can hear you fighting" note; but what would that achieve in reality?

Realistically unless you're willing to knock on the door and offer to be an impartial mediator, then all you can do is continue to be vigilant for signs of actual domestic abuse, but otherwise keep schtum.

retro:electro

Shocked that some people still think it's only domestic abuse if there's physical violence. There is no doubt about it that this couple are living in a domestically violent household. You don't need to see bruising or hear plates clattering to confirm that, what you've heard is enough. One row or two, fair enough any neighbour would let that slide; but there seems to be pattern here and it's not something I would be comfortable ignoring.
Some comments here are very concerning and go against everything that the media has tried so hard to encourage in the past few years.

GingerLily

anna080 wrote: »

Shocked that some people still think it's only domestic abuse if there's physical violence. There is no doubt about it that this couple are living in a domestically violent household. You don't need to see bruising or hear plates clattering to confirm that, what you've heard is enough. One row or two, fair enough any neighbour would let that slide; but there seems to be pattern here and it's not something I would be comfortable ignoring.
Some comments here are very concerning and go against everything that the media has tried so hard to encourage in the past few years.

So what is your advise? Who do you think should be reported? The man because he must be the guilty one?
There's no evidence from the OP that one person here is a vicitim and the other an abuser, they both sound equally guilty and the Gardai won't get involved in cases like this.

Estrellita

anna080 wrote: »

Shocked that some people still think it's only domestic abuse if there's physical violence. There is no doubt about it that this couple are living in a domestically violent household. You don't need to see bruising or hear plates clattering to confirm that, what you've heard is enough. One row or two, fair enough any neighbour would let that slide; but there seems to be pattern here and it's not something I would be comfortable ignoring.

You have no idea what these arguments are about. It's normal enough for couples to argue from time to time, it can often clear the air. The problem with modern day properties is that the walls can be paper thin without any kind of sound proofing to speak of. As a result of this, your business becomes everyone elses.

I'm not implying that we would get as bad as the OP's neighbours, but my OH and I have been under very serious pressure lately. The odd tiff might happen because the house we are trying to buy is hitting one obstacle after the other. Ironically, we hate where we currently live because of neighbours. We are very upset over it. It's neither one of our fault that it's taking so long, but without realising it at the time we might take it out on the other a bit.

My point is, you don't know what it is they are fighting about. I know I wouldn't be best pleased if a neighbour called the police purely because one of us was merely releasing some steam. I'd much rather you came around and said that we had gotten a bit loud. The chances are these neighbours mightn't be aware they can be heard so clearly.

Not every argument has to be chalked up to physical or verbal abuse.

retro:electro

GingerLily wrote: »

So what is your advise? Who do you think should be reported? The man because he must be the guilty one?
There's no evidence from the OP that one person here is a vicitim and the other an abuser, they both sound equally guilty and the Gardai won't get involved in cases like this.

So you think one person has to be dominant in order for it to be considered domestic abuse? They could both be abusive here. I'm not saying the op needs to be specific. He/she just needs to report an ongoing domestic situation in the house below him. You are mad if you think the Garda won't get involved, of course they will.

retro:electro

Estrellita wrote: »

You have no idea what these arguments are about. It's normal enough for couples to argue from time to time, it can often clear the air. The problem with modern day properties is that the walls can be paper thin without any kind of sound proofing to speak of. As a result of this, your business becomes everyone elses.

I'm not implying that we would get as bad as the OP's neighbours, but my OH and I have been under very serious pressure lately. The odd tiff might happen because the house we are trying to buy is hitting one obstacle after the other. Ironically, we hate where we currently live because of neighbours. We are very upset over it. It's neither one of our fault that it's taking so long, but without realising it at the time we might take it out on the other a bit.

My point is, you don't know what it is they are fighting about. I know I wouldn't be best pleased if a neighbour called the police purely because one of us was merely releasing some steam. I'd much rather you came around and said that we had gotten a bit loud. The chances are these neighbours mightn't be aware they can be heard so clearly.

Not every argument has to be chalked up to physical or verbal abuse.

The op said this is happening every single day. This needs to be reported. Your attitude along with some others on this thread is depressing.

njs030

anna080 wrote: »

So you think one person has to be dominant in order for it to be considered domestic abuse? They could both be abusive here. I'm not saying the op needs to be specific. He/she just needs to report an ongoing domestic situation in the house below him. You are mad if you think the Garda won't get involved, of course they will.

No they won't. Physical abuse is illegal and the guards can intervene, arguing isn't physical so there's nothing they can do. They have no powers in relation to noise either.
Perhaps it is an emotionally abusive relationship but that's not a criminal offense at the moment which is the only thing the guards can deal with.

Edit- maybe knowing their neighbors are complaining might make them keep it down though.

Big Bag of Chips

We went through a very bad patch last year. There were daily arguments. Daily. Raised voices and banging doors. Daily. We also have children. It lasted 3 or 4 months. Daily.

At no point was anyone under threat from anyone else. We were going through a very serious and very stressful time and neither of us had the ability to communicate reasonably with the other.

We are the most level headed people I know!!

I really don't know what the guards could have done for us had they been called by a neighbour. We were a couple, rowing. It happens. Everywhere. It doesn't automatically mean there is abuse or threats or anything else going on. It would have been a waste of police time and resources to come looking for us.

retro:electro

notjustsweet wrote: »

No they won't. Physical abuse is illegal and the guards can intervene, arguing isn't physical so there's nothing they can do. They have no powers in relation to noise either.
Perhaps it is an emotionally abusive relationship but that's not a criminal offense at the moment which is the only thing the guards can deal with.

Edit- maybe knowing their neighbors are complaining might make them keep it down though.

Ah sure no point reporting it so. Might as well wait til it escalates and one of them kicks the other one to a pulp before you bother reporting it. Because that's what domestic violence actually is, right? Wrong.

Having this verbal abuse on record is essential in case this verbal abuse escalates into physical violence. The guards will take a report and have it on file. They may not be able to stop it; but having it on file will be detrimental if it escalates. I can't believe you are suggesting not to bother.

GingerLily

anna080 wrote: »

So you think one person has to be dominant in order for it to be considered domestic abuse? They could both be abusive here. I'm not saying the op needs to be specific. He/she just needs to report an ongoing domestic situation in the house below him. You are mad if you think the Garda won't get involved, of course they will.

They'll get involved as far as they would with any old noise complaint and no further.
What can or should the guards do? Technically it's just noise at this point coming from both of them.

I came from a house with domestic violence, I am very aware of how serious a topic it is.

njs030

anna080 wrote: »

Ah sure no point reporting it so. Might as well wait til it escalates and one of them kicks the other one to a pulp before you bother reporting it.

Having this verbal abuse on record is essential in case this verbal abuse escalates into physical violence. The guards will take a report and have it on file. They may not be able to stop it; but having it on file will be detrimental if it escalates. I can't believe you are suggesting not to bother.

You're a tad over emotional about this. I didn't say not to bother at all. I explained the facts and then said reporting it would help the op because they would realise they are bothering the op.

Do you understand people have rows that don't end in physical violence though? There's absolutely no reason to suggest that is going to happen here. None.

GingerLily

anna080 wrote: »

Ah sure no point reporting it so. Might as well wait til it escalates and one of them kicks the other one to a pulp before you bother reporting it.

Having this verbal abuse on record is essential in case this verbal abuse escalates into physical violence. The guards will take a report and have it on file. They may not be able to stop it; but having it on file will be detrimental if it escalates. I can't believe you are suggesting not to bother.

Then you'll have a record of the victim who got kicked shouting at the abuser, how does that aid the victim?

Estrellita

anna080 wrote: »

The op said this is happening every single day. This needs to be reported. Your attitude along with some others on this thread is depressing.

Well I'm sorry you feel that way. I feel there is no need to cry abuse without any proof of it. It's rather silly actually.

retro:electro

GingerLily wrote: »

They'll get involved as far as they would with any old noise complaint and no further.
What can or should the guards do? Technically it's just noise at this point coming from both of them.

I came from a house with domestic violence, I am very aware of how serious a topic it is.

The noise complaint might be enough to make the stop, or would you prefer if they continued to scream blue murder at each other every day? These perspectives here are just exemplary of the age old attitude that "domestic violence is a private matter". Sad to see this hasn't changed.

retro:electro

notjustsweet wrote: »

You're a tad over emotional about this. I didn't say not to bother at all. I explained the facts and then said reporting it would help the op because they would realise they are bothering the op.

Do you understand people have rows that don't end in physical violence though? There's absolutely no reason to suggest that is going to happen here. None.

And you do realise that there doesn't have to be physical violence for it to be considered abuse, right?

Big Bag of Chips

anna080 wrote: »

"domestic violence is a private matter".

There is no evidence of domestic violence though.

Domestic disturbance, yes. But that's a different matter.

Riskymove

Estrellita wrote: »

Well I'm sorry you feel that way. I feel there is no need to cry abuse without any proof of it. It's rather silly actually.

I think the idea is that the ongoing loud rows should be reported not that "domestic abuse" be reported

The Guards can decide what is going on or the intervention may be enough to make them calm down

retro:electro

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

There is no evidence of domestic violence though.

Domestic disturbance, yes. But that's a different matter.

Domestic violence isn't always physical.

Estrellita

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

We went through a very bad patch last year. There were daily arguments. Daily. Raised voices and banging doors. Daily. We also have children. It lasted 3 or 4 months. Daily.

At no point was anyone under threat from anyone else. We were going through a very serious and very stressful time and neither of us had the ability to communicate reasonably with the other.

We are the most level headed people I know!!

I really don't know what the guards could have done for us had they been called by a neighbour. We were a couple, rowing. It happens. Everywhere. It doesn't automatically mean there is abuse or threats or anything else going on. It would have been a waste of police time and resources to come looking for us.

Frankly it would have been quite embarrassing for a couple already going through a tough time. Most of us hit a time like this, because life does come with its pressures.

The last thing you need is a neighbour adding one and one and making five out of it.

njs030

anna080 wrote: »

And you do realise that there doesn't have to be physical violence for it to be considered abuse, right?

I do. Do you realise arguing isn't abuse? Sometimes arguing is just arguing and a couple that are going through a bad patch or breaking up or incompatible.

retro:electro

notjustsweet wrote: »

I do. Do you realise arguing isn't abuse? Sometimes arguing is just arguing and a couple that are going through a bad patch or breaking up or incompatible.

Arguing and screaming at each other in a pattern that is perpetual and happening every single day is case specific of living in a domestically violent household. If there were kids involved would your attitude be different?

Big Bag of Chips

anna080 wrote: »

Domestic violence isn't always physical.

And a couple arguing, even regularly, isn't always domestic violence.

Big Bag of Chips

anna080 wrote: »

Arguing and screaming at each other in a pattern that is perpetual and happening every single day is case specific of living in a domestically violent household. If there were kids involved would your attitude be different?

No. Because I was part of that couple.

Not everything is black and white, anna.

FortySeven

anna080 wrote: »

Arguing and screaming at each other in a pattern that is perpetual and happening every single day is case specific of living in a domestically violent household. If there were kids involved would your attitude be different?

<SNIP>This is arguing, not abuse. Violence is not shouting.<SNIP>

njs030

anna080 wrote: »

Arguing and screaming at each other in a pattern that is perpetual and happening every single day is case specific of living in a domestically violent household.

OK Anna I think you're bringing your own issues into this rather than looking at the op objectively so I'm going to stop replying to you.

As I said originally op perhaps knowing they are bothering the neighbors will calm them down but the guards can't actually do anything about rows.

GingerLily

anna080 wrote: »

Arguing and screaming at each other in a pattern that is perpetual and happening every single day is case specific of living in a domestically violent household. If there were kids involved would your attitude be different?

IF there were kids involved that would be completely different.
IF one of them was only shouting that would also be different.
IF it ever got physical that would be different.

All different scenarios, nothing to do with the OPs noisy neighbours.

Estrellita

Riskymove wrote: »

I think the idea is that the ongoing loud rows should be reported not that "domestic abuse" be reported

The Guards can decide what is going on or the intervention may be enough to make them calm down

Personally I would have asked them nicely to keep it down first. Like I said, they may not be aware how loud they are. Beyond that, repeated loud arguments would get reported to the management. If I wasn't living in a managed property I'd make sure I had noted times and dates of the arguments for the Gardai, as well as being able to tell them I've asked them to keep it down. To me the Gardai only come into it when you feel that you've already tried to be decent about it and have been unsuccessful, have been to management if there is any etc.

seamus

anna080 wrote: »

Arguing and screaming at each other in a pattern that is perpetual and happening every single day is case specific of living in a domestically violent household. If there were kids involved would your attitude be different?

If there were kids involved there's a specific agency you can get involved.

The problem in this case is that there isn't really anyone you can get involved. If a report is made about "domestic violence", there's a strong chance the Gardai will assume the man has started it, or even remove him from the house. If the man is the one being abused (as it sounds like to me in the OP's scenario), then you make things worse for him rather than better for the couple.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. You need to think realistically about what you want to achieve before you blindly act and start calling the Gardai.

What would you want to achieve in the OP's scenario, and what action would you take that you know would achieve that aim?

FortySeven

<SNIP>
I'll <SNIP> second the consensus on here. Management company with a noise complaint is all you can do.

Edit. Just saw your post above. That explains a lot. I'm sorry you went through that and I see where you are coming from now. Sorry.

I think it is clouding your view somewhat though.

Kind regards.

dudara

@anna080 and FortySeven - please do not post on this thread again, unless you are directly offering advice to the OP.

I'll need some time to read and review the posts before taking any action

dudara

FortySeven

anna080 wrote: »

<SNIP>

We are replying too fast. Please see my edit above.

neonsofa

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

We went through a very bad patch last year. There were daily arguments. Daily. Raised voices and banging doors. Daily. We also have children. It lasted 3 or 4 months. Daily.

At no point was anyone under threat from anyone else. We were going through a very serious and very stressful time and neither of us had the ability to communicate reasonably with the other.

We are the most level headed people I know!!

I really don't know what the guards could have done for us had they been called by a neighbour. We were a couple, rowing. It happens. Everywhere. It doesn't automatically mean there is abuse or threats or anything else going on. It would have been a waste of police time and resources to come looking for us.

I went through daily arguments with a partner and felt the same way as you, that it's a phase and we're both stressed (well it was always about his stress and his worries) etc. Nothing untoward, just two people fighting things out. No abuse. But in my situation it was only when I got out that I realised it was abuse. Keeping in mind i had been hit and pushed and been called a slut multiple times before things ended and didnt consider it abuse then because it was only the odd time when I argued back that he did it. The constant arguments (where I gave as good as I got with shouting etc.) would always end with me grovelling for forgiveness despite him being in the wrong. You would hear the fights, you would hear me standing up for myself, and one of us storming out but you wouldn't hear me apologising afterwards and him lecturing me about how I need to learn, or him staying out for days to teach me a lesson for not staying in on a friends birthday. We could have been arguing about me talking to a coworker, wearing clothes that were too revealing, me "making a fool of him" by saying i dont need a lift home from my friends house as ive only spent an hour- id make my own way home instead of him collecting me. Ridiculous arguments where id stand my ground but ultimately give in and apologise and stop seeing those friends and begin ignoring coworkers in case it annoyed him. You wouldn't hear the passive aggressive comments breaking me down all the time. To an outsider it may very well just seem like you say a normal couple fighting in a stressful time. And as you say for most people arguing is just arguing and hot headed people will be loud and it's not a dangerous situation and it may be trivial reporting it to the gardai.

But if the man or woman in that relationship eventually does realise there is abuse going on (if there is) a record of the fighting etc from a concerned neighbour may support their case if it ever needs to be brought up in relation to an application for a protection order or something else, I dunno, maybe it won't, I'm fortunate enough to have never needed to do that but I'd like to report it on the off chance it would make a difference if that was ever needed or the (possible) abuse needed some kind of supporting record or whatever. I would much prefer to give the information to the gardai (facts only and express your concerns) and allow them to decide from there if it warrants anything done, at least then you know you've done all you can.

Estrellita

In my previous marriage I was verbally and physically abused. It's an area in my life I'm quite happy to leave behind me. I'm several years into a much happier relationship, but as I said it tends to get a little strained. We are going to be moving a long distance, and I've been very upset over moving the children's schools. It's an awful lot of stress. In turn, my OH is feeling it. We both despise the area we live in. When it all gets on top of us, you don't mean to, but you might say something you shouldn't or your tone might be off with the other. That might gather moss and heat up a bit, but we love the bones of each other.

I would be truly devastated if someone called the Gardai on us. Things are strained enough already. We don't verbally or physically attack each other. A few fcuks might get thrown around but that is the extent of it. I think I've clattered delph down on the table, or slammed a door or two. But good God we would never hurt each other.

After I spend a bit of time alone it clears the head and I come say I'm sorry and tell him why I'm upset. If two Gardai were on my doorstep after that I think I'd fall through the floor with embarrassment

Big Bag of Chips

On the other hand, my friend went to the guards telling them of threats her ex husband had made to her and her new partner. Phone calls threatening to kill one or both of them. Examples of times when she was living with him where he threw stuff at her, threatened her etc. Why she had to leave the family home, taking her 2 children and move back in with her parents due to his alcohol and cocaine addiction.

All the guards could do was tell her that until he physically did something to one of them there was nothing they could actually do about him. She said the guard didn't even take notes while she was speaking to her.

TheSegal

This got a lot of attention since I last posted. I'm going to lodge a complaint with the letting agency about the noise, if this doesn't sort out the issue I will contact the guards with a noise complaint. A number of you may not agree with this but I think it's the best option I have available at the moment.

As some posters have highlighted since I don't know who is directly causing the arguments or if any direct threats have been made to either party I cannot say for certain who is to blame to the guards and could make a relationship going through a bad patch far worse.

crkball6

TheSegal wrote: »

This got a lot of attention since I last posted. I'm going to lodge a complaint with the letting agency about the noise, if this doesn't sort out the issue I will contact the guards with a noise complaint. A number of you may not agree with this but I think it's the best option I have available at the moment.

As some posters have highlighted since I don't know who is directly causing the arguments or if any direct threats have been made to either party I cannot say for certain who is to blame to the guards and could make a relationship going through a bad patch far worse.

Be careful about how you go about this. People don't take kindly to this sort of thing and should they find out it was you things could become very awkward/difficult for you.

I knew once I heard these adverts there would be some OTT reactions to it and this is perfect example of it.

Your best bet is to stay out of it and move on. If it becomes that the raised voices arguments are going on late at night and causing continual disturbance at "out of hours" hours you might consider doing something.

But reporting people to the management company for some raised voices and heated arguments it's way OTT.

dudara

crkball6 wrote: »

But reporting people to the management company for some raised voices and heated arguments it's way OTT.

It's not OTT, IMO. As a resident you are entitled to quiet and peaceful enjoyment of your home. Persistent and repeated noise (in this care arguing) is not acceptable, so complaining to the management is a good way to go about it.

This way, a separate third party will hopefully warn the couple about the noise levels, and hopefully they will take the hint.

Rekop dog

[SNIP]

Estrellita

crkball6 wrote: »

But reporting people to the management company for some raised voices and heated arguments it's way OTT.

If after approaching the neighbour directly hasn't reduced the noise, then the next step must be considered. If the fighting is loud enough to effect your quality of life, you cannot be expected to withstand it and keep quiet.

crkball6

dudara wrote: »

It's not OTT, IMO. As a resident you are entitled to quiet and peaceful enjoyment of your home. Persistent and repeated noise (in this care arguing) is not acceptable, so complaining to the management is a good way to go about it.

This way, a separate third party will hopefully warn the couple about the noise levels, and hopefully they will take the hint.

Gives me an idea about two brats I have living near me. Waking me up with their toys of a Sunday.

This is not rave music at 4am. It's a couple having a barney. Reporting this will do absolutely nothing but possibly alienation from said neighbors.

The sound of the gob on his wife/partner I wouldn't want to be upsetting her.

Parchment

I would complain to their landlord regarding the noise coming from their flat. You shouldn't have to listen to that daily.

I don't think it sounds like domestic abuse on the part of either person - it just sounds like they need to break up.

Parchment

crkball6 wrote: »

Be careful about how you go about this. People don't take kindly to this sort of thing and should they find out it was you things could become very awkward/difficult for you.

I knew once I heard these adverts there would be some OTT reactions to it and this is perfect example of it.

Your best bet is to stay out of it and move on. If it becomes that the raised voices arguments are going on late at night and causing continual disturbance at "out of hours" hours you might consider doing something.

But reporting people to the management company for some raised voices and heated arguments it's way OTT.

It is totally reasonable to complain about noise from raised voices/arguments if it disrupts you. The same as you would complain about loud music/tvs annoying you.