Proposals to get rid of insurance discs

Atlantic Dawn

Heard on RTÉ News towards the end of the week that some committee made recommendations to get rid of the need to display insurance discs on cars and that ANPR would instead be used by Gardaí to detect uninsured cars. I think this is a crazy idea, if someone crashes in to your car how are you supposed to know who they are insured with or their policy number? Surely getting rid of the tax and NCT discs is what needs to be considered or else integrate them in to one disc which details expiry date of both.

Skylinehead

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Heard on RTÉ News towards the end of the week that some committee made recommendations to get rid of the need to display insurance discs on cars and that ANPR would instead be used by Gardaí to detect uninsured cars. I think this is a crazy idea, if someone crashes in to your car how are you supposed to know who they are insured with or their policy number? Surely getting rid of the tax and NCT discs is what needs to be considered or else integrate them in to one disc which details expiry date of both.

Use their numberplate and the guards do everything else?

cabledude

How it this managed in countries where displaying an insurance disc is not a requirement? In the UK for example?

punisher5112

Skylinehead wrote: »

Use their numberplate and the guards do everything else?

They in a lot of cases don't want to know.
It is working in the UK where tax disc has being done away with.

Anpr works well but very few cars fitted and it would need to be fitted on lots more roads.

Also in the UK they set up roadside vans with the system.

Atlantic Dawn

Skylinehead wrote: »

Use their numberplate and the guards do everything else?

They will likely tell you it's a civil matter and won't get involved unless there's someone injured.

Skylinehead

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

They will likely tell you it's a civil matter and won't get involved unless there's someone injured.

Yeah I guess. How does it work in the UK? Maybe you get your insurance co to tell you the other parties insurance?

Atlantic Dawn

Skylinehead wrote: »

Yeah I guess. How does it work in the UK? Maybe you get your insurance co to tell you the other parties insurance?

Yes the UK has nothing at all on the windscreens now, not sure if they ever had insurance discs.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

All for anpr, but what's the advantage of not having the disk? Why not just have both?

gctest50

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

All for anpr, but what's the advantage of not having the disk? Why not just have both?

(if anpr was up n running )

Needless duplication

2.5 million cars on the road, that's a lot of paper and ink/toner saved

As long as there is disks, there will be forged ones

colm_mcm

Why not actually use ANPR first ffs!

colm_mcm

gctest50 wrote: »

(if anpr was up n running )

Needless duplication

2.5 million cars on the road, that's a lot of paper and ink/toner saved

As long as there is disks, there will be forged ones

Usually the disc is part of the cert, which is an A4 sheet.

ShiverinEskimo

Skylinehead wrote: »

Use their numberplate and the guards do everything else?

Plates are too easily cloned/stolen. It's ridiculous that something as crucial as a vehicle registration plate can be made by anyone who can afford the equipment. Should be tightly restricted to a state body.

gctest50

colm_mcm wrote: »

Usually the disc is part of the cert, which is an A4 sheet.

Offer a discount for paperless - like power bills etc

punisher5112

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

Plates are too easily cloned/stolen. It's ridiculous that something as crucial as a vehicle registration plate can be made by anyone who can afford the equipment. Should be tightly restricted to a state body.

In UK you must show you are registered owner to get plate done also it must have garage name on bottom.

Atlantic Dawn

punisher5112 wrote: »

In UK you must show you are registered owner to get plate done also it must have garage name on bottom.

Don't think there's garage name rules for them, Halfords in UK make them too after all.

Del2005

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

Plates are too easily cloned/stolen. It's ridiculous that something as crucial as a vehicle registration plate can be made by anyone who can afford the equipment. Should be tightly restricted to a state body.

I can easily print off an insurance disc or else just pay the first installment on a policy and get a disc. Both discs and plates are easily faked.

A non injury crash is a civil matter, refusing to hand offer details following a crash is an offence so the Gardaí will either respond or provide the details when requested. Just means that you'll need 4 cameras to record everything.

gctest50

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

Plates are too easily cloned/stolen. It's ridiculous that something as crucial as a vehicle registration plate can be made by anyone who can afford the equipment. Should be tightly restricted to a state body.

The Anpr should recognise "impossible" journeys, say appear in Dublin at 11am and Athlone at 11.05, and send a alert.

If they have cloned plates, they may be up to much more and you've a reason to pull them in at any time and take the car

colm_mcm

gctest50 wrote: »

Offer a discount for paperless - like power bills etc

I can imagine it!

Your premium €863.76
Paperless cert discount - €3.76
Electronic cert surcharge €8.76
Total premium €868.76

bazz26

The unions won't like this.

Isambard

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

They will likely tell you it's a civil matter and won't get involved unless there's someone injured.

claim you are injured then... whiplash hard to prove and it works both ways.

ShiverinEskimo

Del2005 wrote: »

I can easily print off an insurance disc or else just pay the first installment on a policy and get a disc. Both discs and plates are easily faked.

A non injury crash is a civil matter, refusing to hand offer details following a crash is an offence so the Gardaí will either respond or provide the details when requested. Just means that you'll need 4 cameras to record everything.

But being caught with a fake disc is an additional offence on top of driving while uninsured.

If I clone a plate for my black passat with that of a fully insured law abiding citizen's black passat I can drive around with impunity and be long gone from the scene before the third party and the guards figure out they've been duped. New set of black passat plates in the mean time and off I go again.

It's already extremely difficult to verify details but at least with insurance discs it gives the policy number and company who can be called from the roadside and be verified as insured before the other party leaves the scene if needs be.

Voodoomelon

Sometimes I think we haven't come very far at all as a race. We rave about our technological prowess, with digital this, automated that and yet we're all driving around with bits of paper stuck to our windscreens.

Like other countries, make it mandatory to carry your insurance details in your vehicle, perhaps on a new wallet-sized card. Introduce ANPR for motor tax and NCT avoidance detection on all major routes with automatic fine issuing, amalgamated databases for active cross referencing of drivers particulars. Ditch the paper, motor tax offices and Garda man hours enforcing archaic practices.

Oh but the cost, difficulty, Skynet blah blah...

Johnboner

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Sometimes I think we haven't come very far at all as a race. We rave about our technological prowess, with digital this, automated that and yet we're all driving around with bits of paper stuck to our windscreens.

Like other countries, make it mandatory to carry your insurance details in your vehicle, perhaps on a new wallet-sized card. Introduce ANPR for motor tax and NCT avoidance detection on all major routes with automatic fine issuing, amalgamated databases for active cross referencing of drivers particulars. Ditch the paper, motor tax offices and Garda man hours enforcing archaic practices.

Oh but the cost, difficulty, Skynet blah blah...

We did come far away, Ireland didn't and use this stupid outdated pieces of paper on the windscreen because we have to be different from every other country.

Skylinehead

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Sometimes I think we haven't come very far at all as a race. We rave about our technological prowess, with digital this, automated that and yet we're all driving around with bits of paper stuck to our windscreens.

In fairness the computer as a concept in everyday life is barely 20 years old! Give it a bit of time, especially here

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

My insurance is 2.5k

Please just leave me have a disk for my money.

mickdw

A little off topic but I see that the paperless arrangement in the uk is a godsend for the fellas that like to drive around here on UK plates.
They sorn the car in the uk and drive on here in ireland with neither tax nor test to bother them as there are no tell tails on the screen.
Insurance - who knows!

Johnboner

Hugh Mungus wrote: »

My insurance is 2.5k

Please just leave me have a disk for my money.

You should be punished by death for your profile picture.

allthedoyles

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

They will likely tell you it's a civil matter and won't get involved unless there's someone injured.

Or they may say you have to make a statement and they will then follow up on it

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

Johnboner wrote: »

You should be punished by death for your profile picture.

?

pa990

Start with doing away with nct disc.
Then the tax disc
Then insurance disc.


But none of that will ever happen, we dont have enough technology (anpr)
We don't have strong enough/practical laws
We don't have a judicial system that functions properly.


The UK invented ANPR, because of IRA activity, and are the global leaders in such technolog, and they are saturated with it.

We are decades behind.


(Anyway, ANPR is easily defeated in low light conditions)

bigtimecharlie

punisher5112 wrote: »

Also in the UK they set up roadside vans with the system.

So you will pass a goSafe van for speed and a little up the road will be a van for insurance. They'll soon have a van for the NCT after that.

Isambard

Until such time as ANPR is extended to all Gardai vehicles and installed at the roadside and every "ping" is investigated without exception, on a zero tolerance basis we need to keep the discs.

To paraphrase, until the Gards start actually policing the roads. They will of course need more resources to do this and I have no objection to this.

ShiverinEskimo

bigtimecharlie wrote: »

So you will pass a goSafe van for speed and a little up the road will be a van for insurance. They'll soon have a van for the NCT after that.

That's the irish way of doing it. Everywhere else would have the one van with two cameras.

Isambard

do you even need a van?

ShiverinEskimo

Isambard wrote: »

do you even need a van?

Static cameras just get avoided too easily and are vandalised in remote areas and backroads.

RayCun

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Sometimes I think we haven't come very far at all as a race. We rave about our technological prowess, with digital this, automated that and yet we're all driving around with bits of paper stuck to our windscreens.

Like other countries, make it mandatory to carry your insurance details in your vehicle, perhaps on a new wallet-sized card. Introduce ANPR for motor tax and NCT avoidance detection on all major routes with automatic fine issuing, amalgamated databases for active cross referencing of drivers particulars. Ditch the paper, motor tax offices and Garda man hours enforcing archaic practices.

Oh but the cost, difficulty, Skynet blah blah...

If you're going to make it mandatory to have a bit of plastic in your car that's not very much advanced on having a bit of paper on your windscreen

nice_guy80

Just have every insurance cert issued with hologram

You keep this in the car.
No need for disc.

ANPR should be used for all checkpoints

Oodoov

Plate cloning is rampant in the the UK. With the amount of fake tax, insurance and NCT discs on cars here it would be greater in Ireland if introduced.

colm_mcm

Can't understand all the disc hate! It tells anyone at a glance if the car is (probably) insured. What's not to like?

Oafley Jones

Oodoov wrote: »

Plate cloning is rampant in the the UK. With the amount of fake tax, insurance and NCT discs on cars here it would be greater in Ireland if introduced.

Also worth noting that revenue had a fair fall off (£200 million) almost immediately after the paperless system was introduced in the UK. Then you've the cost of the system. It's not been as easy as hoped. Can't see us following anytime soon.

crossmolinalad

pa990 wrote: »

Start with doing away with nct disc.
Then the tax disc
Then insurance disc.


But none of that will ever happen, we dont have enough technology (anpr)
We don't have strong enough/practical laws
We don't have a judicial system that functions properly.


The UK invented ANPR, because of IRA activity, and are the global leaders in such technolog, and they are saturated with it.

We are decades behind.


(Anyway, ANPR is easily defeated in low light conditions)

In Holland
No tax or nct or insurance paid , then within a single week you got from the car registration office huge fines sent home
It can go triple your yearly tax,insurance,nct payments and or even taking away your vehicle

Car plates can`t just be made at any garage
When you lost a plate you get a new plates with the same registration but with an extra digit on it and must bring in car with all the registration papers and the old plates are worthless
Next year they will change all the plates with new ones with a micro chip in it

Atlantic Dawn

Oodoov wrote: »

Plate cloning is rampant in the the UK. With the amount of fake tax, insurance and NCT discs on cars here it would be greater in Ireland if introduced.

You then simply either put the sentence for plate cloning at 10 years or change the current plates to have a hologram on them that can only be issued by the government.

Del2005

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

Static cameras just get avoided too easily and are vandalised in remote areas and backroads.

The UK was working on getting ANPR working with all public CCTV

porsche boy

ShiverinEskimo wrote:

Plates are too easily cloned/stolen. It's ridiculous that something as crucial as a vehicle registration plate can be made by anyone who can afford the equipment. Should be tightly restricted to a state body.

That's a but far but defiantly you should need documentation such as VLC to get plates made up.
Cloning is a big problem but if you see a van that's the same as yours just make a note of it and get it made up. It's shocking really.

pa990

pa990 wrote: »

Start with doing away with nct disc.
Then the tax disc
Then insurance disc.


But none of that will ever happen, we dont have enough technology (anpr)
We don't have strong enough/practical laws
We don't have a judicial system that functions properly.


The UK invented ANPR, because of IRA activity, and are the global leaders in such technolog, and they are saturated with it.

We are decades behind.


(Anyway, ANPR is easily defeated in low light conditions)

ANPR in the UK is not some magnficant system that you are guaranteed to be caught with in my experience. I dove around London for 4 months with no MOT and was never flagged on an ANPR.

crossmolinalad wrote: »

In Holland
No tax or nct or insurance paid , then within a single week you got from the car registration office huge fines sent home
It can go triple your yearly tax,insurance,nct payments and or even taking away your vehicle

Car plates can`t just be made at any garage
When you lost a plate you get a new plates with the same registration but with an extra digit on it and must bring in car with all the registration papers and the old plates are worthless
Next year they will change all the plates with new ones with a micro chip in it

Sounds like a pain in the hole, why anyone would want an anal system like this is beyond me.

Guy:Incognito

It's hardly one of the top burning motoring related issues now is it. Efforts need to be focused on actual issues before worrying about the horrors associatd with having to have a couple of square inches of paper on your windscreen.

Skommando

bigtimecharlie wrote: »

So you will pass a goSafe van for speed and a little up the road will be a van for insurance. They'll soon have a van for the NCT after that.

competent coherant and iteligent management is not one of Ireland's strong points

Commotion Ocean

Getting rid of tax and NCT discs would be a great idea to remove the clutter from the windscreen, with ANPR cameras on motorway gantries detecting evaders.

However, I'd be reluctant to remove the disc. If that happened, you'd have to contat the Garda with the reg plate number to get details. Most likely response you'd get is "it's a civil matter".

dr.fuzzenstein

For ANPR to work here there will have to be a central database, updated in real time, Garda equipment, training and several government agencies to coordinate and collaborate.
What usually happens in Ireland, well, as for the IT side of things I just say e-voting and LEAP card, so the ANPR and database system will takes decades to develop, cost billions and will function only as a mock-up in 20 years time. It will then take another 10 years and more billions to get a rudimentary system up and running. In about 5 Garda cars and it will be switched off most of the time. If all 5 are switched on, the ancient and creaking PULSE system will sh*t itself.
As for agencies collaborating, no. Just no. Every department brews it's own little soup and what the other guys are doing is their problem. Just do what's on your desk and if that doesn't work, not your problem. Time for lunch.
So the typical solution would be to do away with one system and replace it with...nothing.

Of course this solution to Ireland's insurance woes is like the deckhand that suggested stabilising the Titanic by moving the chairs round a bit.

Vic_08

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

You then simply either put the sentence for plate cloning at 10 years or change the current plates to have a hologram on them that can only be issued by the government.

In a country where a 7 and a half year sentence for having 10 pints, driving and killing a 4 year old is considered too harsh by an appeals court, yeah sure that's realistic.

A hologram, one that is immune to being covered in a layer of muck as is often seen on otherwise clean performance cars I assume.

Commotion Ocean

Out of interest, is there any penalty to driving around with a reg plate obscured by dirt and muck so much that the numbers are unreadable?