Calf tags

alps

We now look as if we will have a choice of 3 providers of calf tags this year. What you might think would lead to competition and a decrease in the cost of tags has backfired , and the original provider has used the changed circumstances to increase the price. Not only that but not all current BVD ear notch testing companies will have
the equipment to test all of the tags available, so we also loose the choice of some of these.

I'm not too put out by this mess....

I'm just really pissed off that we are still BVD testing.....this should have been wrapped up by now if we had competent organisations operating the scheme.

greysides

alps wrote: »

.....this should have been wrapped up by now if we had competent organisations operating the scheme.

In what way are the organisations responsible?

Buford T. Justice XIX

alps wrote: »

We now look as if we will have a choice of 3 providers of calf tags this year. What you might think would lead to competition and a decrease in the cost of tags has backfired , and the original provider has used the changed circumstances to increase the price. Not only that but not all current BVD ear notch testing companies will have
the equipment to test all of the tags available, so we also loose the choice of some of these.

I'm not too put out by this mess....

I'm just really pissed off that we are still BVD testing.....this should have been wrapped up by now if we had competent organisations operating the scheme.

I think the farm organisations were expecting farmers to voluntarily cull PIs after they were informed of the dangers of infecting other incalf animals with BVD but a lot of farmers didn't read the script and decided to fatten those animals. If there was a compulsory scheme put in place now or movement restrictions put in place, it might end it sooner but there doesn't seem to be an appetite there to finish it.

Signpost

Never had a PI so easy throw stones but until the department do like TB and compensate for the calf to be destroyed, and destroy them immediately the issue wont go away and all the labs will keep smiling and raking in the cheques. I know the dept want to wash their hands of it but until there is something done to make it illegal to keep a high risk calf were going to be stuck with these samples.

alps

greysides wrote: »

In what way are the organisations responsible?

Animal health Ireland planned ,set up and run a scheme which could never conclude as long as there was a clause which meant PI,s could remain on farms. Despite farmers insisting at the time that this could not work without a compulsory cull of PI animals, they continued foolishly. Yes the department may have needed to put in compensation in place to take out these animals, and the farm organisations would not agree to a cull without compensation, but the scheme should not have commenced without all the ducks lined up.

Now it's a mess....so much so that now, a farmer can order a set of tags for next year without the BVD sample tag.

If farmers are to have confidence in AHI, confident enough to let them on to the "eradication" of the next disease, they really need to step it up on the eradication of the "simple" one.

whelan2

alps wrote: »

Animal health Ireland planned ,set up and run a scheme which could never conclude as long as there was a clause which meant PI,s could remain on farms. Despite farmers insisting at the time that this could not work without a compulsory cull of PI animals, they continued foolishly. Yes the department may have needed to put in compensation in place to take out these animals, and the farm organisations would not agree to a cull without compensation, but the scheme should not have commenced without all the ducks lined up.

Now it's a mess....so much so that now, a farmer can order a set of tags for next year without the BVD sample tag.

If farmers are to have confidence in AHI, confident enough to let them on to the "eradication" of the next disease, they really need to step it up on the eradication of the "simple" one.

The problem lies with the dept imo, they should have backed ahi from day one on the removal/compenation of pi's. The scheme shouldnt have been allowed to start with out this in place. It is good that you can not sell an animal with out it being bvd tested

greysides

Back when the scheme started there were cut backs all over the place. As BVD is not a notifiable disease it is being tackled by a group of organizations within the industry. If compensation was to be paid they would have had to come up with it. Eventually the exchequer came up with a small carrott.
A lot of the problems seem to have political or legislative origins. These would take time to sort out.
No one would say there are no problems still but the disease is under a lot more control than it was.
I'm sure the people implementing the scheme were well aware, and are still aware, of the problems but they obviously decided it was worth pushing on with.

Looking at it from the ground the compliance of the minority still not on-side is what's spoiling it for the others. However you have these people to deal with no matter what programme is undertaken.

It hasn't done too badly for an animal disease eradication scheme that the IFA wanted no vet involvement with. TBH, there are better men than me involved in the veterinary input to it. If I was to be involved and heard that.....

The man in red and black

Just playing devil's advocate but you could argue that because BVD is not notifiable the Dept has no obligation to incentivise the eradication. The reason behind eradicating BVD is to improve profits on farms for farmers and to allow us access to certain markets for live exports. It's not the same as TB or Brucellosis where there is a significant public health risk.

BVD eradication was intended to be industry led and industry funded. It was naive to assume that people would have PI's euthanised for the greater good of the national herd though.

Buford T. Justice XIX

The man in red and black wrote: »

Just playing devil's advocate but you could argue that because BVD is not notifiable the Dept has no obligation to incentivise the eradication. The reason behind eradicating BVD is to improve profits on farms for farmers and to allow us access to certain markets for live exports. It's not the same as TB or Brucellosis where there is a significant public health risk.

BVD eradication was intended to be industry led and industry funded. It was naive to assume that people would have PI's euthanised for the greater good of the national herd though.

Not so much for the national herd, the benefits are huge for their own herds principally.

It's been a huge window into the inability of the Ag industry to get the message of the huge benefits to an individual farmer for a herd getting BVD free.

With Johnes and IBR up next, I hope that lesson has been learned.

Keepgrowing

Bvd is decreasing country wide but we're a bit off low level monitoring just yet. The blame is spread around but it lies at the feet of the AHI and some farmers.

Farmers for their reluctance to remove pi animals. I'm aware that a suckler farmer is forgoing his full income but with the movement and slaughtered restrictions in place he's not much choice.

The AHI for naively believing that farmers are all team players. The reason we've such regulations and inspections on animal remedies etc is because of Messers

I laugh when I read and hear farmers suggesting that we with hold milk for a few days imagining farmers would act in solidarity, not a hope.

Anyway back to tags, I've decided we're buying from euro tags simply because the alternative is using a different test process. Now the labs will have to invest in a new process so instead of competition reducing prices it'll actually rise them.

The competition should have been between the various companies and we go with the winner (one company). It looks like 3 now. Joke

Bullocks

Whatever about the price of the tags ,I'm hopefull we'll get tags that dont fall out as quick as they have been the last few years . The cormac sheep tags are way better tags from my small experience with tagging the lambs .
Maybe the price will go up initially but as with any business when a few of them start competing for more tags the prices will drop

Buford T. Justice XIX

People would want to be ordering tags fairly soon as well. There are no reminder notices going out this year so people could remind their older neighbours as well in case they don't know about the change.

I ordered from Mullinahone again as I don't know if my BVD lab is able to use the other tags.

whelan2

Ordered a load of tags in june. You dont have to order your full amount of tags in 1 go

Mooooo

Ordered from mulinahone as others weren't sorted yet. Still took 4 weeks to fecking come this time of year, can't understand it

High bike

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

People would want to be ordering tags fairly soon as well. There are no reminder notices going out this year so people could remind their older neighbours as well in case they don't know about the change.

I ordered from Mullinahone again as I don't know if my BVD lab is able to use the other tags.

havent seen the new ones yet but my understanding is you can use any tags left over from last year ,so there should be no issue with the lab

Buford T. Justice XIX

High bike wrote: »

havent seen the new ones yet but my understanding is you can use any tags left over from last year ,so there should be no issue with the lab

No issue until the lab comes up to the new tags samples. It's automated so check that your lab can handle the new tags types.

Or you'll be ordering new sample tags and sending them elsewhere.

whelan2

Who is the 3rd cattle tag supplier?

Signpost

Datamars Ireland but by the sounds of it they will be a long way off supplying tags yet.

Got onto my lab about testing Cormac tags and they said they aren't testing them yet (which goes without saying I thought as we can't buy then!) but envisage they will be by the spring time. Open the door to a bit of open competition!

whelan2

Signpost wrote: »

Datamars Ireland but by the sounds of it they will be a long way off supplying tags yet.

Got onto my lab about testing Cormac tags and they said they aren't testing them yet (which goes without saying I thought as we can't buy then!) but envisage they will be by the spring time. Open the door to a bit of open competition!

Who is your lab?

Signpost

Enfer Labs in Kildare

Keepgrowing

Signpost wrote: »

Datamars Ireland but by the sounds of it they will be a long way off supplying tags yet.

Got onto my lab about testing Cormac tags and they said they aren't testing them yet (which goes without saying I thought as we can't buy then!) but envisage they will be by the spring time. Open the door to a bit of open competition!

Does it open the door to competition or does it add cost updating hardware to test new tags. I see no change tbh

whelan2

Signpost wrote: »

Enfer Labs in Kildare

This is were the problem is. why cant the the dept come out and say all labs will be able to test all tags. I think its going to be better the devil you know for this year anyway unfortunately

Mooooo

The sampling thing is fine just make them out of better plastic. One slap of a barrier and the fcukers are gone

limo_100

whelan2 wrote: »

This is were the problem is. why cant the the dept come out and say all labs will be able to test all tags. I think its going to be better the devil you know for this year anyway unfortunately

Sure they can test all samples they might not have came out and said but there was no need considering these other companies have met the spec set out by the dept. I will be buying of cormac in the spring when I run out of tags. They give you a free applicator when you purchase 50tags

Buford T. Justice XIX

Mooooo wrote: »

The sampling thing is fine just make them out of better plastic. One slap of a barrier and the fcukers are gone

+1

It surely can't be that hard to strengthen the back of a tag where it tears to give added life span to a tag?

Keepgrowing

Mooooo wrote: »

The sampling thing is fine just make them out of better plastic. One slap of a barrier and the fcukers are gone

Funny that I ordered a lot of replacement tags, all from one sequence and they refunded the money back to my account.

Coincidence in sure, nothing to do with competition;)

limo_100

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

+1

It surely can't be that hard to strengthen the back of a tag where it tears to give added life span to a tag?

Our cattle hardly ever lose a tag I replace 2 or 3 every year out of a hundred head I couldn't fault the quality of tags in my experience. The reason i'm changing supplier is strictly financial

whelan2

Is there a fine line though between losing the tag and an animal getting a split ear. Not standing up for mullinahone in any way. I think they too need to go down the free tag replacement route

Mooooo

whelan2 wrote: »

Is there a fine line though between losing the tag and an animal getting a split ear. Not standing up for mullinahone in any way. I think they too need to go down the free tag replacement route

The split ears tend to happen as calves with wire or a twine. Find most of mine in feeding passage or now in parlour

Keepgrowing

Just ordered our tags. I ordered 1/3 electronic for replacement heifers. I included the icbf levy for better or worse. Did anyone else?

tanko

Has anyone ordered tags off a company apart from Eurotags/Mullinahone or actually received any?

Mooooo

Ordered and received off mullinahone. Included icbf levy. NOT a hope remembering the new number. This number replacing the herd identifier?

J.O. Farmer

Keepgrowing wrote: »

Does it open the door to competition or does it add cost updating hardware to test new tags. I see no change tbh

I suppose it depends on the design of the new tags but the little plastic container you put the tissue sample into on the mullinahone tags is a bog standard sample container used in labs. I'd say everyone has seen them on the news anytime there's something involving a potential scientific breakthrough and they show someone working in a lab.
This container can put into a bog standard microcentrifuge which will spin very fast causing the tissue sample to fly out of the tag into the bottom of the container. That little lid on it can be closed once the tag is removed and the tag thrown away. After that it can be tested any way the lab wants.
Presumably this design is intentional and it should be in the department spec and if not surely the like of cormac will have realised this.
Anyone else think that maybe it may be in the interest of some to make it sound as if the new tag design is an issue. There should be no issues with new tag design unless the department AND tag suppliers are ALL idiots who didn't have a quick chat to someone in a lab about tag design in relation to sample collection.

Signpost

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

There should be no issues with new tag design unless the department AND tag suppliers are ALL idiots

Can confirm from experience that 50% of those quoted above are actually complete idiots, have not dealt with the other 50% yet.
Assuming that anything would is planned would go strongly against the usual for the dept implementing a scheme. Keeps them in jobs for it all go to tits up and then spend months approving a new system, ie - the IT infrastructure for someone to supply tags.

J.O. Farmer

Signpost wrote: »

Can confirm from experience that 50% of those quoted above are actually complete idiots, have not dealt with the other 50% yet.
Assuming that anything would is planned would go strongly against the usual for the dept implementing a scheme. Keeps them in jobs for it all go to tits up and then spend months approving a new system, ie - the IT infrastructure for someone to supply tags.

I did emphasise BOTH the department and the tag companies would ALL have to be idiots. I have more faith in the like of cormac so I think the bvd testing shouldn't be a problem. However the IT infrastructure could be a different story and seems to be what's holding up the 2 new suppliers actually supplying tags.

KatyMac

Sorry for the stupid question, but what is the ICBF contribution added on to the price of the tags? I consider I pay enough to ICBF seeing as how I'm signed up to HerdPlus. Is this contribution the same as the IFA levy that was taken from my sales in the mart?

tanko

KatyMac wrote: »

Sorry for the stupid question, but what is the ICBF contribution added on to the price of the tags? I consider I pay enough to ICBF seeing as how I'm signed up to HerdPlus. Is this contribution the same as the IFA levy that was taken from my sales in the mart?

Think it's 38c per tag set.
The IFA levy is known as the EIF levy so that farmers don't know what it is. But sure all these levies are "voluntary" don't ya know.

whelan2

KatyMac wrote: »

Sorry for the stupid question, but what is the ICBF contribution added on to the price of the tags? I consider I pay enough to ICBF seeing as how I'm signed up to HerdPlus. Is this contribution the same as the IFA levy that was taken from my sales in the mart?

When the icbf was set up they needed funding, they got a levy on every new set of tags, this was to be a temporary measure ,the guts of 20 years later and they were still pulling the levy even though they have plenty of money now

KatyMac

Think I'll leave them off my tag request form so. I only joined HerdPlus because I'm in a KT group and it was compulsory. Enough is taken from my few bob without voluntarily handing it over.

Sheep breeder

Quick question,the icbf levy if you do not pay it when you order tags, will you be in trouble with the suckler Cow scheme.

tanko

Sheep breeder wrote: »

Quick question,the icbf levy if you do not pay it when you order tags, will you be in trouble with the suckler Cow scheme.

Can't see how it would affect the genomics scheme. Paying the levy isn't mentioned in the terms and conditions as far as I remember.

jca

Sorry guys and Girls for the stupid question but did ye know that you were being charged an extra 38c per tag contribution to the icbf before now? Was it a voluntary contribution?

reps4

jca wrote: »

Sorry guys and Girls for the stupid question but did ye know that you were being charged an extra 38c per tag contribution to the icbf before now? Was it a voluntary contribution?

And also, can a refund be claimed back. I am another one paying the 60e herd plus fee and feel is more than enough.
If had been aware of the levy that would be fine. It's the hidden aspect of it that annoys me and gets people's backs up when it comes out in the wash.

Bellview

No need to pay icbf levy. Unfortunately icbf appear to have little respect for farmers and ghetto mordant I observe them the only concern of icbf is what that can charge. They will make a fortune on the genomic scheme so they are fine. The other prize landed last week was the pedigree breeds accepted that they should pay icbf to confirm they are telling the truth.

alps

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

I did emphasise BOTH the department and the tag companies would ALL have to be idiots. I have more faith in the like of cormac so I think the bvd testing shouldn't be a problem. However the IT infrastructure could be a different story and seems to be what's holding up the 2 new suppliers actually supplying tags.

There is concern that not all labs will be able to test all types of tags, and as this scheme "has only a short time to run" labs will be slow to update equipment to do so. If you want to continue tissue testing at your current lab, make sure that if you change tag supplier your samples can be tested.

alps

whelan2 wrote: »

When the icbf was set up they needed funding, they got a levy on every new set of tags, this was to be a temporary measure ,the guts of 20 years later and they were still pulling the levy even though they have plenty of money now

I'm not sure to its fair to say they have plenty money now. They run on very tight funding, with the tags Levy bringing in 800k. They do not have that many joined herd plus in reality.

I give them a paltry 45 uros or so for 120 tag sets and 60 euros for herd plus. A tiny sum of 100 euros for what I have found to be an incredible service. The access to information is invaluable. The access to the people and their helpfulness has been beyond expectation, whether it is asking one of them to make a presentation at a meeting or a discussion group, whether it is compiling a catalogue for stock sales, or help in identifying bulls for our requirements, they have been invaluable.

Icbf has been the singularly delivered more profit to our farm than any other technology or input or service. They will continue to get our backing both financially and good reference.

Coonagh

Very disappointed to read some of the attitudes here regarding the ICBF tag levy. ICBF provide an incredible service and the data they collect and collate is solely for the benefit of farmers. Objecting to and refusing to pay the levy is a clear example of some farmers knowing the price of everything but the value of nothing.

whelan2

Yes icbf provide a great service. I know someone who was on the board of icbf when it was set up. As far as he was concerned the tag levy was put in place to get icbf on their feet. He couldn't believe the levy was still being drawn. How many farmers actually knew the levy was there for so long. There is also funding coming from plenty of other avenues and in a bad milk price year I think its up to each individual to do what they think is best. I am planning on paying it every second year. 38c is a big % of the price of a set of tags

Never wrestle with pigs

Who else is doing what icbf are doing? The research they are putting in? I understand IFA, but not icbf. It's just a case of sum farmers being thick c**ts. It's not going to brake the bank and if it will I'd think you'll be better off at sumthing else.

whelan2

alps wrote: »

I'm not sure to its fair to say they have plenty money now. They run on very tight funding, with the tags Levy bringing in 800k. They do not have that many joined herd plus in reality.

I give them a paltry 45 uros or so for 120 tag sets and 60 euros for herd plus. A tiny sum of 100 euros for what I have found to be an incredible service. The access to information is invaluable. The access to the people and their helpfulness has been beyond expectation, whether it is asking one of them to make a presentation at a meeting or a discussion group, whether it is compiling a catalogue for stock sales, or help in identifying bulls for our requirements, they have been invaluable.

Icbf has been the singularly delivered more profit to our farm than any other technology or input or service. They will continue to get our backing both financially and good reference.

Is there an icbf levy on ai straws too

whelan2

Never wrestle with pigs wrote: »

Who else is doing what icbf are doing? The research they are putting in? I understand IFA, but not icbf. It's just a case of sum farmers being thick c**ts. It's not going to brake the bank and if it will I'd think you'll be better off at sumthing else.

The main thing that has annoyed farmers is they were paying a levy to icbf that they didnt know about. No one is disputing the work that they do.