Ireland v Australia - Build Up discussion/News

Adbrowne

Ross Lindsay ‏@Ross_A_Lindsay 2m2 minutes ago
@IrishRugby injury update. Johnny Sexton and Robbie Henshaw ruled out of @qantaswallabies game.



Ross Lindsay ‏@Ross_A_Lindsay 2m2 minutes ago
CJ Stander & Rob Kearney could still play. They are following return to play protocols.


Ireland have added Munster's Rory Scannell & Stuart Olding to squad to provide additional cover ahead of Australia #irevaus #Munster

thomond2006

Kearney - RTTP ('graduated RTTP')
Sexton - out (hamstring)
Henshaw - out (concussion)
Stander - RTTP
Furlong - dead leg being managed over next 24hrs
Zebo - cramp, expected to train this week
POM, Dillane, Earls - expected to return to training this week

Olding and Rory Scannell added to the squad as cover.

Buer

Jesus. Disaster.

Good chance we go with Marshall at 12 and Payne at 13 with RK at 15.

People might not like it but it's currently the most likely scenario, I suspect.

I'm far less confident now.

ScrubsfanChris

Is this the same recurring injury for Sexton?

Nice call up for Rory Scannell, even if it might be just a few runs with the squad.

Buer

ScrubsfanChris wrote: »

Is this the same securing injury for Sexton?

Nice call up for Rory Scannell, even if it might be just a few runs with the squad.

Assume you mean recurring and I saw it mentioned that it's the other hamstring.

thomond2006

The 'expected to train' comment versus a 'will train' comment makes me wonder if Zebo/Dillane/POM/Earls may not be available for Saturday.

former total

On the plus side, I don't think either Stander or RK has any history of concussion so hopefully can recover.

No surprise that Henshaw and Sexton are gone.

It will be very interesting to see what happens at centre, whether he shoe-horns Ringrose and Payne in together, or brings Marshall in at 12.

Sanjuro

Well, we've been working up the idea of squad depth. Big challenge come up with Henshaw and Sexton out. Hopefully that's the extent of it.

aloooof

ScrubsfanChris wrote: »

Is this the same securing injury for Sexton?

Nice call up for Rory Scannell, even if it might be just a few runs with the squad.

Agreed, don't expect him to get anywhere near the 23, but he deserves the call up for his form over the last 12 months.

ScrubsfanChris

Buer wrote: »

Assume you mean recurring and I saw it mentioned that it's the other hamstring.

Yes, fixed

Hard to know if thats good or bad news that its the other leg then.

thomond2006

former total wrote: »

On the plus side, I don't think either Stander or RK has any history of concussion so hopefully can recover.

If you look at the tweets, it sounds to me like RK's condition is more serious than Stander's. They mentioned a graduated RTTP.

Adbrowne

thomond2006 wrote: »

The 'expected to train' comment versus a 'will train' comment makes me wonder if Zebo/Dillane/POM/Earls may not be available for Saturday.

If they dont train early in the week that could indicate they are out.


McGrath, Best, Furlong, Toner, Ryan, SoB, VDF, Heaslip
Murray, Jackson, Gilroy, Marshall Ringrose, Trimble, Payne

thomond2006

If we go by the '13 is a more important position than 15' argument then Payne won't be moved and TOH will start at 15.

Buer

thomond2006 wrote: »

If we go by the '13 is a more important position than 15' argument then Payne won't be moved and TOH will start at 15.

I wouldn't rule out Zebo to 15 and Earls to come in (if fit) at all. I'd actually imagine that's a more likely scenario.

thomond2006

Buer wrote: »

I wouldn't rule out Zebo to 15 and Earls to come in (if fit) at all. I'd actually imagine that's a more likely scenario.

I forgot about Zebo at 15, makes sense.

Duggie2012

why not keep Ringrose in there. my only concern was if he was physically strong enough. i think hes proved he can stand up on the physical aspect of the game now. keep him in there and gain more expierence.

CMOTDibbler

thomond2006 wrote: »

I forgot about Zebo at 15, makes sense.

Zebo at 15 means nobody to cover wing if Ringrose starts, which looks likely. Possibly TOH, but is it a bit much to ask him to cover two positions in a game like this when he hasn't played wing all season?*

I'd sooner start TOH at FB and have Zebo on the bench to cover both.




*Open to correction on this as I haven't seen all Connacht's games this season.

Hagz

My gut tells me it will remain Ringrose and Payne in the centre. My cynicism tells me to expect Marshall and Payne.

former total

Duggie2012 wrote: »

why not keep Ringrose in there. my only concern was if he was physically strong enough. i think hes proved he can stand up on the physical aspect of the game now. keep him in there and gain more expierence.

Just a question of who plays 12, when you have two 13s in Payne and Ringrose.

Neil3030

Kuridrani is an absolute baysht, but Ringrose could handle Fekitoa for the most part. Australia leave so many gaps, it'd be a shame not to see Ringrose start.

CMOTDibbler

Neil3030 wrote: »

Kuridrani is an absolute baysht, but Ringrose could handle Fekitoa for the most part. Australia leave so many gaps, it'd be a shame not to see Ringrose start.

That try by Kuridrani at the weekend was outrageous.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUUKZAlVCNY

Duggie2012

Hagz wrote: »

My gut tells me it will remain Ringrose and Payne in the centre. My cynicism tells me to expect Marshall and Payne.

i think if joe had any remaining concerns about Ringrose, he showed him he is up to it at this level against the all-blacks. i'd be more than happy to see him in there again. i don't see any reason to drop him for the game now henshaw is out.

pickarooney

It seems like only yesterday we were knee deep in twelves. Is McCluckers back playing yet?

Duggie2012

former total wrote: »

Just a question of who plays 12, when you have two 13s in Payne and Ringrose.

i must admit i never really could tell the difference in 12's and 13's. are they not pretty much the same.....really?? they seemed to cope ok against the all-blacks

Professor Moriarty

Duggie2012 wrote: »

why not keep Ringrose in there. my only concern was if he was physically strong enough. i think hes proved he can stand up on the physical aspect of the game now. keep him in there and gain more expierence.

Agreed. He's almost 15st so should have enough bulk. I can't think of a better attacking Irish centre at present, now that Henshaw is out. I'd partner him with Payne, put Zebo at 15 and Earls on the wing.

CMOTDibbler

Duggie2012 wrote: »

i must admit i never really could tell the difference in 12's and 13's. are they not pretty much the same.....really?? they seemed to cope ok against the all-blacks

13 usually operates in a bit more space than 12. That works both ways as the 13 has a much tougher job in defense.

12 is easier to defend, but gets more traffic. In attack, a 12 with a good step and good acceleration could do real damage.

sydthebeat

Neil3030 wrote: »

Kuridrani is an absolute baysht, but Ringrose could handle Fekitoa for the most part. Australia leave so many gaps, it'd be a shame not to see Ringrose start.

if its ringrose 12 Payne 13 id be happy enough against Hodge 12 Kuridrani 13

i think olding 12 ringrose 13 payne 15 would slice that aussie midfield apart

NiallBoo

Would it be too much of a shock to see olding start at 12?

Adbrowne

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Agreed. He's almost 15st so should have enough bulk. I can't think of a better attacking Irish centre at present, now that Henshaw is out. I'd partner him with Payne, put Zebo at 15 and Earls on the wing.

A lot depends on which part of this week this is. POM trained last Thursday so hopefully he is good to go so backrow maybe POM/SOB/Heaslip with VDF on bench.

Zebo - cramp, expected to train this week
POM, Dillane, Earls - expected to return to training this week

Kevski

If we have worst case scenario and both Zebo and Kearney are out, what about -

11. Earls
12. Marshall
13. Ringrose
14. Trimble
15. Payne

Not entirely enthusiastic about seeing Marshall there after his performance against Canada but it's a possibility at this stage

bilston

I think Joe will be loathe to move Payne to 15 with Sexton and Henshaw out. Zebo will go there before JP.

The question is who partners Payne?

I'd love to see Ringrose start again, but the temptation may be to go with an actual 12. In that case I'd personally go with Olding over Marshall, I assume Scannell isn't really in contention at this stage but you never know.

Adbrowne

NiallBoo wrote: »

Would it be too much of a shock to see olding start at 12?

Marshall is in camp, Olding hasnt been so hard to know

awec

Duggie2012 wrote: »

i must admit i never really could tell the difference in 12's and 13's. are they not pretty much the same.....really?? they seemed to cope ok against the all-blacks

Subtly different.

In attack 12 has a lot less time on the ball so you have to be able to think fast, have a good pass and usually they are physically able to bosh the ball up the line if needs be in a lot of traffic. 13 will have more space to run at the defence.

Defensively 13 is more difficult.

Duggie2012

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

13 usually operates in a bit more space than 12. That works both ways as the 13 has a much tougher job in defense.

12 is easier to defend, but gets more traffic. In attack, a 12 with a good step and good acceleration could do real damage.

so maybe they could switch it up between themselves depending on how the game is panning out? or is that too simplistic

Mr Tickle

I'm actually looking forward to seeing Ireland have the chance to tactically replace our fly half.
You have to wonder about the value we get from sexton these days. He's the best 10 in the country sure enough but I can;t think of the last time we played a game without some sort of questions about his fitness.

Jackson gives us a good game-managing 10 and Carbery has a bit of spark for the last 20 mins if we need to make something happen.
I'd have a similar attitude towards Murray and Marmion.

awec

Duggie2012 wrote: »

so maybe they could switch it up between themselves depending on how the game is panning out? or is that too simplistic

Teams can and do switch it up if they have players capable of playing in both positions. The 12 can also step in for the 10 if the 10 is unavailable. You cannot line up in a perfect 10, 12, 13 line for every phase.

But Ringrose and Payne are both 13s. I think it's too soft a partnership to work, Henshaw brings a lot of physicality in the tight spaces. Payne and Ringrose are both suited to having a bit of space around them IMO.

Professor Moriarty

Adbrowne wrote: »

A lot depends on which part of this week this is. POM trained last Thursday so hopefully he is good to go so backrow maybe POM/SOB/Heaslip with VDF on bench.

Zebo - cramp, expected to train this week
POM, Dillane, Earls - expected to return to training this week

O'Mahony for Stander shouldn't deplete the pack too much. O'Mahony doesn't carry as well as Stander but is much more of an enforcer. We really do have an abundance of good forwards, especially in the back row. I wonder if Carberry's flair should be given a chance over Jackson's consistency? Probably not, but it depends on how Schmidt sees the Aussies.

CMOTDibbler

bilston wrote: »

I think Joe will be loathe to move Payne to 15 with Sexton and Henshaw out. Zebo will go there before JP.

The question is who partners Payne?

I'd love to see Ringrose start again, but the temptation may be to go with an actual 12. In that case I'd personally go with Olding over Marshall, I assume Scannell isn't really in contention at this stage but you never know.

This.

We've seen what happens when the spine of the team is ripped out. Bad enough without adding collateral damage in selection. So Payne stays at 13 and either Marshall or Ringrose at 12. Personally having seen both in action lately, Ringrose shades it for me. By quite a bit tbh.

Zebo is just suffering from cramp, so he has to be in teh 23. Personally I'm in favour of TOH at 15 since he's already had a game there and should be up to speed. Zebo on the bench at 23 is a better option imo.

Neil3030

10. Carberry
11. Zebo
12. Olding
13. Ringrose
14. Adeolokun
15. Payne

Pretty, pretty pleeeeeeeeeeeeease!

Adbrowne

Kevski wrote: »

If we have worst case scenario and both Zebo and Kearney are out, what about -

11. Earls
12. Marshall
13. Ringrose
14. Trimble
15. Payne

Not entirely enthusiastic about seeing Marshall there after his performance against Canada but it's a possibility at this stage

Marshall v Canada had a lot of must do something with every possession to make an impression about it. If had done a nuts and bolts performance it would have counted a lot more in the eyes of the coach even of he appeared to have a quiet game to the ordinary fan.

Earls, Marshall, Payne, Trimble, Zebo with Ringrose 23

is probably what we are looking at even If I would prefer to see Payne at 15. If Zebo is also out then TOH slots in.

Adbrowne

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

O'Mahony for Stander shouldn't deplete the pack too much. O'Mahony doesn't carry as well as Stander but is much more of an enforcer. We really do have an abundance of good forwards, especially in the back row. I wonder if Carberry's flair should be given a chance over Jackson's consistency? Probably not, but it depends on how Schmidt sees the Aussies.

A few years ago we had a mental first half against them, which if continued, we would have been hockeyed. We tightened the game up completely in the second half and strangled the game into an arm wrestle, so POM stepping in at 6 doesnt weaken us at all. I think that 2nd half in 2014 is a to closer to how we will approach the game then the 1st half.

Mr Tickle

Also if we lost Stander there'd be a case to use henderson as a 6 again. Useful for the carrying and we still have dillane for impact in the second row.

kuang1

Adbrowne wrote: »

Marshall v Canada had a lot of must do something with every possession to make an impression about it. If had done a nuts and bolts performance it would have counted a lot more in the eyes of the coach even of he appeared to have a quiet game to the ordinary fan.

Earls, Marshall, Payne, Trimble, Zebo with Ringrose 23

is probably what we are looking at even If I would prefer to see Payne at 15. If Zebo is also out then TOH slots in.

My thoughts exactly. If Ringrose were to start instead of Marshall then we don't really have a decent option for the 23 jersey.

Professor Moriarty

Adbrowne wrote: »

A few years ago we had a mental first half against them, which if continued, we would have been hockeyed. We tightened the game up completely in the second half and strangled the game into an arm wrestle, so POM stepping in at 6 doesnt weaken us at all. I think that 2nd half in 2014 is a to closer to how we will approach the game then the 1st half.

The recent experience of the two games against NZ will make us a lot more street-wise in the future. You can't buy that type of knowledge. Very possible that our pack will be the more dominant so maybe a tighter game would be better. Playing to our strength might be to stuff it up the jumper until we wear them down or they start to commit too many men to the breakdown.

Kevski

Mr Tickle wrote: »

I'm actually looking forward to seeing Ireland have the chance to tactically replace our fly half.
You have to wonder about the value we get from sexton these days. He's the best 10 in the country sure enough but I can;t think of the last time we played a game without some sort of questions about his fitness.

Jackson gives us a good game-managing 10 and Carbery has a bit of spark for the last 20 mins if we need to make something happen.
I'd have a similar attitude towards Murray and Marmion.

We had the opportunity to do it in South Africa and it never really materialised as Jackson played about 95% of the three tests.

Whatever about the amount of time that Sexton has the pitch, the impact and game changing ability that he brings when he's there is second to none. I'm
not sure that any of our alternatives would have shown he commitment that he showed in making that tackle on Barrett on Saturday.

CMOTDibbler

Adbrowne wrote: »

Marshall v Canada had a lot of must do something with every possession to make an impression about it. If had done a nuts and bolts performance it would have counted a lot more in the eyes of the coach even of he appeared to have a quiet game to the ordinary fan.

It wasn't a quiet game from my pov. He stuck out a few times in all the wrong ways. He kicked twice and badly, he did exactly the wrong thing for DTHVDM's try and conceded three turnovers (presumably from the above).

On the credit side, he took his try well and made nine tackles missing none.

On Ringrose's credit side is two clean breaks, five defenders beaten and two offloads in his first two matches for Ireland. seventeen tackles made and two missed.

Adbrowne

Mr Tickle wrote: »

Also if we lost Stander there'd be a case to use henderson as a 6 again. Useful for the carrying and we still have dillane for impact in the second row.

He looked miles off the pace on Saturday though. With Dillane a doubt, he is needed at lock.

Adbrowne

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

It wasn't a quiet game from my pov. He stuck out a few times in all the wrong ways. He kicked twice and badly, he did exactly the wrong thing for DTHVDM's try and conceded three turnovers (presumably from the above).

On the credit side, he took his try well and made nine tackles missing none.

I dont disagree with what you said he did, I just think it had a lot to do with trying to make too many big plays off every possession to leave a lasting impression, totally the wrong thing when the coach is a stickler for detail. He showed in June in the first test how capable he is.

CMOTDibbler

Adbrowne wrote: »

I dont disagree with what you said he did, I just think it had a lot to do with trying to make too many big plays off every possession to leave a lasting impression, totally the wrong thing when the coach is a stickler for detail. He showed in June in the first test how capable he is.

Yeah, that's possible alright. But the pragmatic decision has to go with the guy who's taken his chances well and stood out for all the right reasons. When you put those stats together for his first two games in green, they look very impressive and belie his age and experience.

If that's the bottom end of the curve, I can't wait to see where it goes.

Adbrowne

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Yeah, that's possible alright. But the pragmatic decision has to go with the guy who's taken his chances well and stood out for all the right reasons. When you put those stats together for his first two games in green, they look very impressive and belie his age and experience.

If that's the bottom end of the curve, I can't wait to see where it goes.

Its not a bad problem to have either.

I will be unbelievably disappointed if it's Payne in the centre again, I really will.