What are tenants responsibilities regarding keeping house heated

MayBee

What can be done if a tenant isn't keeping the house heated, my parents have a house rented and the tenant hasn't been heating the house, the tenant contacted them regarding the heating not working, when my father checked he found there was no oil in the tank and the tank had been put up on blocks to get the very last bit of oil out of it.
They had previously run out of oil and locked out the system, and my parents paid to get it fixed that time, they then said that if it happened again they were not responsible.
It also seems that there hasn't been any fires lighting either. Does a tenant have a responsibility to heat a house, as it could cause damp etc.
Any advice welcome.

cerastes

I'd say they do, while it shouldn't need to be, it might have been wise to put this in the contract. Not heating a house could have other problems such as condensation from water vapours from habitation and use, combined with being cold, this could cause mould to form. How long are they in? Might be worth dealing with now if possible rather than 4 years down the road when house is subject to this wear and other wear and tear from their use.
Tbh don't know why they would have tolerated the tank being moved or paying to resolve the locking out of the boiler because of it, sets a precedent.

MayBee

Unfortunately nothing specific in the lease regarding heating of the property. When there was an issue with the heating originally they were not aware that it was because the oil had ran out, and as they had called the plumber they felt they had to pay for it, they do obviously feel that they should not have been responsible for this but decided to let it slide as the tenant was not long in the property.

tradesman

bad move to "let it slide". Unfortunately with tenants you have to be FIRM but fair. Otherwise they will walk on top of you. Keep on top of this lot because anyone who cant be bothered to heat themselves imo are bad news

4ensic15

MayBee wrote: »

What can be done if a tenant isn't keeping the house heated, my parents have a house rented and the tenant hasn't been heating the house, the tenant contacted them regarding the heating not working, when my father checked he found there was no oil in the tank and the tank had been put up on blocks to get the very last bit of oil out of it.
They had previously run out of oil and locked out the system, and my parents paid to get it fixed that time, they then said that if it happened again they were not responsible.
It also seems that there hasn't been any fires lighting either. Does a tenant have a responsibility to heat a house, as it could cause damp etc.
Any advice welcome.

Residential Tenancies Act 2004
Provisions regarding tenant's obligations

) ensure that no act or omission by the tenant results in there not being complied with the obligations of the landlord, under any enactment, in relation to the dwelling or the tenancy (and in particular, the landlord's obligations under regulations under section 18 of the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1992 ),


f) not do any act that would cause a deterioration in the condition the dwelling was in at the commencement of the tenancy, but there shall be disregarded, in determining whether this obligation has been complied with at a particular time, any deterioration in that condition owing to normal wear and tear,

---

If not heating the dwelling is causing a deterioration the tenant should be warned by letter that they are in breach of their obligations and that they could be at risk of termination if they do not take appropriate steps.

SteM

tradesman wrote: »

bad move to "let it slide". Unfortunately with tenants you have to be FIRM but fair. Otherwise they will walk on top of you. Keep on top of this lot because anyone who cant be bothered to heat themselves imo are bad news

This is an unfair comment imo. They might be broke and not able to afford to refill the oil tank. Saying they 'cant be bothered to heat themselves' without knowing them or their situation is a bit ignorant imo.

pilly

I have seen it mentioned in some leases that the house must be kept heated and ventilated and that was just a standard lease. Are you sure it's not in there? If not I suppose maybe just a friendly word might help. To be fair, people who aren't used to oil heating may not have the money saved up to fill the tank but they certainly could light the fire or use electric heaters. In saying that it hasn't been extremely cold yet this year, maybe they will when it gets colder.

Snakeblood

I suppose you could do regular inspections for damp, put a small bit of oil in the tank (measuring and checking the depth each time) and run the heating during the check, and explain why both things were happening.

It'd be annoying and inconvenient, but at least it would make sure the heating was working.

We avoid using the heating in our current rental as much as possible because it's expensive to do so and the heat just goes through the roof. But someone explaining to us the situation would make a difference.

MayBee

4ensic15 wrote: »

Residential Tenancies Act 2004
Provisions regarding tenant's obligations

) ensure that no act or omission by the tenant results in there not being complied with the obligations of the landlord, under any enactment, in relation to the dwelling or the tenancy (and in particular, the landlord's obligations under regulations under section 18 of the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1992 ),


f) not do any act that would cause a deterioration in the condition the dwelling was in at the commencement of the tenancy, but there shall be disregarded, in determining whether this obligation has been complied with at a particular time, any deterioration in that condition owing to normal wear and tear,

---

If not heating the dwelling is causing a deterioration the tenant should be warned by letter that they are in breach of their obligations and that they could be at risk of termination if they do not take appropriate steps.

Thank you so much for this, this is exactly the information that I was looking for.

MayBee

Snakeblood wrote: »

I suppose you could do regular inspections for damp, put a small bit of oil in the tank (measuring and checking the depth each time) and run the heating during the check, and explain why both things were happening.

It'd be annoying and inconvenient, but at least it would make sure the heating was working.

We avoid using the heating in our current rental as much as possible because it's expensive to do so and the heat just goes through the roof. But someone explaining to us the situation would make a difference.

This is the thing, the tenant reported that there was damp, so this was obviously checked out, this is when it came to light that the house wasn't being heated, even though my father had given the tenant wood for the fire and there was oil in the tank when they moved in.
We presume at the moment the heating still isn't working as it locked out when the oil ran out, and we're not aware of the tenant getting this fixed.

While I do get the sentiment, maybe they aren't cold yet and some people aren't too bothered about having general hot water if they have an electric shower (I know I'm not and always hated when housemates turned on heat to heat water in taps etc).

Mrs OBumble

SteM wrote: »

This is an unfair comment imo. They might be broke and not able to afford to refill the oil tank. Saying they 'cant be bothered to heat themselves' without knowing them or their situation is a bit ignorant imo.

If they cannot afford to heat the place , then they cannot afford the place.

LL needs to be well on top of issues, and issue notices as soon as problems arise.

pilly

Viviana CoolS Cloud wrote: »

While I do get the sentiment, maybe they aren't cold yet and some people aren't too bothered about having general hot water if they have an electric shower (I know I'm not and always hated when housemates turned on heat to heat water in taps etc).

I made that point too, I mean it hasn't been very cold yet this year.

baby and crumble

Filling an oil tank can be quite expensive all in one go. I remember my folks having to do a couple of big orders a year, I always thought it was mad to have to pay so much out in one go. If they're renting they may not have the means to fill an oil tank in this way. It's not like having a gas or electricity bill to pay. Ok the overall spend is probably the same but shelling out €600 to fill a tank is a big expense.

Is there a way to ask them to pay an extra €50 a month on their rent and you are responsible for getting the tank filled at specific intervals?

pilly

baby and crumble wrote: »

Filling an oil tank can be quite expensive all in one go. I remember my folks having to do a couple of big orders a year, I always thought it was mad to have to pay so much out in one go. If they're renting they may not have the means to fill an oil tank in this way. It's not like having a gas or electricity bill to pay. Ok the overall spend is probably the same but shelling out €600 to fill a tank is a big expense.

Is there a way to ask them to pay an extra €50 a month on their rent and you are responsible for getting the tank filled at specific intervals?

Good idea.

The_Conductor

baby and crumble wrote: »

Filling an oil tank can be quite expensive all in one go. I remember my folks having to do a couple of big orders a year, I always thought it was mad to have to pay so much out in one go. If they're renting they may not have the means to fill an oil tank in this way. It's not like having a gas or electricity bill to pay. Ok the overall spend is probably the same but shelling out €600 to fill a tank is a big expense.

Is there a way to ask them to pay an extra €50 a month on their rent and you are responsible for getting the tank filled at specific intervals?

While that sounds like a good idea- you're really opening a Pandora's box- because the tenant will then say- heating is included in the rent, and not associate or appreciate the fact that their 50 quid (which really is a very small sum where heating is concerned)- doesn't go a long way- and sure why would they- when the landlord is going to fill the oil tank again.......

If the tenant is unable to heat the property- and in this case they have been given wood for the open fires etc by the landlord and of their own volition have not set fires- then the issue goes beyond sympathising that they may be unable to afford the oil- these tenants could just as easily have set fires in the fireplaces, but have chosen not to do so.

Edups

Jesus God forbid someone wasn't cold whatever will we do :rolleyes:

Edups

The_Conductor wrote: »

these tenants could just as easily have set fires in the fireplaces, but have chosen not to do so.

Yeah but wait for it.....

THEY MIGHT NOT BE COLD

FHSHSUDUDUD

it's been a fierce mild winter so far not everyone lights their fire November first ffs

pilly

The_Conductor wrote: »

While that sounds like a good idea- you're really opening a Pandora's box- because the tenant will then say- heating is included in the rent, and not associate or appreciate the fact that their 50 quid (which really is a very small sum where heating is concerned)- doesn't go a long way- and sure why would they- when the landlord is going to fill the oil tank again.......

If the tenant is unable to heat the property- and in this case they have been given wood for the open fires etc by the landlord and of their own volition have not set fires- then the issue goes beyond sympathising that they may be unable to afford the oil- these tenants could just as easily have set fires in the fireplaces, but have chosen not to do so.

Good point but €50 per month is €600 per year which would cover one fill and when it's gone it's gone. It's just a suggestion. The LL could kick off over the heat not being on all they like but if the tenant doesn't have €600 to fill the tank then nothing will change that. Lighting a fire in the house would not deal with the problems of damp and mould.

listermint

pilly wrote: »

Good point but €50 per month is €600 per year which would cover one fill and when it's gone it's gone. It's just a suggestion. The LL could kick off over the heat not being on all they like but if the tenant doesn't have €600 to fill the tank then nothing will change that. Lighting a fire in the house would not deal with the problems of damp and mould.

What stops the tenant putting 50 Quid into i dont know, their savings account personally for such a need......

The_Conductor

Edups wrote: »

Yeah but wait for it.....

THEY MIGHT NOT BE COLD

FHSHSUDUDUD

it's been a fierce mild winter so far not everyone lights their fire November first ffs

They're bitching about damp- and haven't been turning on the heating. Of course they're bloody going to have damp- if they don't have any heating........

SteM

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

If they cannot afford to heat the place , then they cannot afford the place.

LL needs to be well on top of issues, and issue notices as soon as problems arise.

It's been said already, it costs a large lump sum to fill a tank with oil. Perhaps they're saving for it, they obviously didn't know about it when they moved in. The OP doesn't know because she'd rather talk to strangers on the internet about it than discuss it with the tenant.

pilly

listermint wrote: »

What stops the tenant putting 50 Quid into i dont know, their savings account personally for such a need......

Probably the fact that they wouldn't have enough until next winter!

murphaph

SteM wrote: »

This is an unfair comment imo. They might be broke and not able to afford to refill the oil tank. Saying they 'cant be bothered to heat themselves' without knowing them or their situation is a bit ignorant imo.

Still bad news for the LL regardless of the reasons behind their failure to heat the property.

Mrs OBumble

SteM wrote: »

It's been said already, it costs a large lump sum to fill a tank with oil. Perhaps they're saving for it, they obviously didn't know about it when they moved in. The OP doesn't know because she'd rather talk to strangers on the internet about it than discuss it with the tenant.

You don't need to fill it. Tenants can and do buy small amounts at a time eg €40. Yes, it doesnt get delivered, and yes it is more expensive than buying a fill. But its what some people do, just like pre pay electricity. (Some believe it's more economical overall, once you figure in the probability of oil being stolen following a delivery.)

The real loser is the LL due to the risk of damage from sludge at the bottom of the tank. And that's another reason for landlords to be very careful checking that prospective tenants can afford the property.

seagull

It's a risk for the tenant to pay to fill the oil tank if they're unsure how long they'll be in the property. You can imagine people wouldn't be overly happy to pay out €600 to fill the tank, and then wind up moving out with the tank still half full.

looksee

Slightly off the main topic, but if the tank has been lifted on to blocks it is probably not supported sufficiently and is in danger of cracking if the tank is filled. If you get an oil spill or leak in the vicinity of the house or in the foundations the cost of fixing it will be huge.

The_Conductor

looksee wrote: »

Slightly off the main topic, but if the tank has been lifted on to blocks it is probably not supported sufficiently and is in danger of cracking if the tank is filled. If you get an oil spill or leak in the vicinity of the house or in the foundations the cost of fixing it will be huge.

Its a common enough practice- to get gravity to assist in emptying oil tanks. Its been done all around Ireland for literally decades.........

looksee

That is not the issue, my own tank is raised about 3ft off the ground, the question is whether there are just a few random blocks or a proper level shelf for the tank to sit on. An irregular surface stresses the tank.

Sleeper12

If they don't want heat on they don't have to. If you feel it's damaging the house you can pay for the heat but you can not force a tenant to use heating
If they get an airlock in the oil line and you have to pay a plumber it's up to them to pay for this.

pilly

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

You don't need to fill it. Tenants can and do buy small amounts at a time eg €40. Yes, it doesnt get delivered, and yes it is more expensive than buying a fill. But its what some people do, just like pre pay electricity. (Some believe it's more economical overall, once you figure in the probability of oil being stolen following a delivery.)

The real loser is the LL due to the risk of damage from sludge at the bottom of the tank. And that's another reason for landlords to be very careful checking that prospective tenants can afford the property.

I tried this before and was then told that the drums of oil had damaged the motor and it was my problem to fix so that's not necessarily a solution either. Repairman told me the drums of oil can introduce contamination to the tank? Not sure if that's true or not because I had no experience of oil heating before.

runawaybishop

Sleeper12 wrote: »

If they don't want heat on they don't have to.

If they are causing damp by not heating the house then they are in breach of their obligations and can be issued notice to leave.

Edups

runawaybishop wrote: »

If they are causing damp by not heating the house then they are in breach of their obligations and can be issued notice to leave.

You cannot make a person turn on heat if they are not cold. It's in every contract that a tenant is entitled to comfort and enjoyment of their home, if you're not cold and you turn on the heating, that causes discomfort.

pilly

Edups wrote: »

You cannot make a person turn on heat if they are not cold. It's in every contract that a tenant is entitled to comfort and enjoyment of their home, if you're not cold and you turn on the heating, that causes discomfort.

Ah now come on, everyone gets cold at least twice a year!! If someone is genuinely not cold ever then they could turn on heating for an hour and open windows.

runawaybishop

Edups wrote: »

You cannot make a person turn on heat if they are not cold. It's in every contract that a tenant is entitled to comfort and enjoyment of their home, if you're not cold and you turn on the heating, that causes discomfort.

And if you breach your obligations you get kicked out of the house.

K.Flyer

Couple of things,

Oil tanks must be fully supported along their base, preferably with concrete heads.
The tank should be tilting back away from the fuel line in order for debris and sludge to accumulate at the furthest point from the fuel line.
Propping up the end of the tank compromises the support and will introduce dirt into the fuel system, although good filters should stop yhe dirt but doesn't always and the pump on the burner can get destroyed.
As a heating service tech it is interesting to see the varience in the temperatures that people prefer, from very hot to cold enough. Everyone is different and nobody can force them to have the heating on more than they prefer.
Damp is usually caused by other problems, poor ventilation, moisture from outside etc., having the heat on might keep it under control, but its not fixing the problem itself.
Personally, I would have words with them for tampering with the tank and tell them that any repair cost as a result of that action may be payable by them.
Check out the damp and try to establish the cause. I have seen plenty of damp and mould patches as a result of water leaks or poor ventilation in my time and the properties would be warm enough all year round.

pilly

K.Flyer wrote: »

Couple of things,

Oil tanks must be fully supported along their base, preferably with concrete heads.
The tank should be tilting back away from the fuel line in order for debris and sludge to accumulate at the furthest point from the fuel line.
Propping up the end of the tank compromises the support and will introduce dirt into the fuel system, although good filters should stop yhe dirt but doesn't always and the pump on the burner can get destroyed.
As a heating service tech it is interesting to see the varience in the temperatures that people prefer, from very hot to cold enough. Everyone is different and nobody can force them to have the heating on more than they prefer.
Damp is usually caused by other problems, poor ventilation, moisture from outside etc., having the heat on might keep it under control, but its not fixing the problem itself.
Personally, I would have words with them for tampering with the tank and tell them that any repair cost as a result of that action may be payable by them.
Check out the damp and try to establish the cause. I have seen plenty of damp and mould patches as a result of water leaks or poor ventilation in my time and the properties would be warm enough all year round.

Good information KFlyer, I had no prior experience of gas heating until I moved into my current house and it's caused me nothing but problems that I never had with gas heating. It doesn't look to me like my tank is tilted away from the fuel line although it could be slightly.

K.Flyer

pilly wrote: »

Good information KFlyer, I had no prior experience of gas heating until I moved into my current house and it's caused me nothing but problems that I never had with gas heating. It doesn't look to me like my tank is tilted away from the fuel line although it could be slightly.

Do you mean Oil

It only needs to be slight, aboit 1 inch in the difference would be enough.

pilly

K.Flyer wrote: »

Do you mean Oil

It only needs to be slight, aboit 1 inch in the difference would be enough.

Yeah sorry I meant oil. Mine is up on a concrete thing alright and it could be tilted 1 inch alright, my eye wouldn't be that good!

Sleeper12

runawaybishop wrote:

If they are causing damp by not heating the house then they are in breach of their obligations and can be issued notice to leave.

Not quite as simple as you think. Damp is caused by inadequate insulation this is not the Tennants problem. This argument doesn't add up. If heat was causing damage would the Tennant have to run air-conditioning.

pilly

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Not quite as simple as you think. Damp is caused by inadequate insulation this is not the Tennants problem. This argument doesn't add up. If heat was causing damage would the Tennant have to run air-conditioning.

I don't believe lack of heat doesn't cause problems in a house. Have you ever been in a house that hasn't had heating on for a year? You can feel the damp in the air.

runawaybishop

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Not quite as simple as you think. Damp is caused by inadequate insulation this is not the Tennants problem. This argument doesn't add up. If heat was causing damage would the Tennant have to run air-conditioning.

Read what i wrote, i said "If they are causing damp by not heating the house". Not heating a house in cold and damp weather can absolutely cause issues.

MayBee

SteM wrote: »

It's been said already, it costs a large lump sum to fill a tank with oil. Perhaps they're saving for it, they obviously didn't know about it when they moved in. The OP doesn't know because she'd rather talk to strangers on the internet about it than discuss it with the tenant.

Of course they knew what heating was in the house before they moved in, if they were unable/unwilling to pay for oil then they should have found somewhere else to live, or used other heaters if they so wished, also there is an open fire,
It will be discussed with the tenant obviously, but I was hoping for some advise before the subject was broached

MayBee

Edups wrote: »

You cannot make a person turn on heat if they are not cold. It's in every contract that a tenant is entitled to comfort and enjoyment of their home, if you're not cold and you turn on the heating, that causes discomfort.

Well they were obviously cold at some stage as they used up the oil that was in the tank and the other firewood that was provided

MayBee

seagull wrote: »

It's a risk for the tenant to pay to fill the oil tank if they're unsure how long they'll be in the property. You can imagine people wouldn't be overly happy to pay out €600 to fill the tank, and then wind up moving out with the tank still half full.

I completely understand this, but you don't have to fill the tank, you can get a half tank, or 200/250e or whatever you may think you'll use if you're planning on moving out

I lived in a house that was cold and damp and it wasn't from us not heating it. I could have poured my entire salary into trying to heat the place, and it would have remained cold and damp. On windy evenings there was a noticeable breeze in the sitting room, because the windows werent sealed.

As other posters have said, its only gotten cold in the last couple of weeks. Ive had my electric fire on once or twice this winter, and I've not switched the radiators on anywhere except in the hall because its not been cold enough. If I was living somewhere with poor ventilation and poor insulation id be in the same boat as the OP's tenants in that he'd be complaining Im not heating the place, when in reality ive not needed to, and we dont have any problems with dampness.

OP, hand on heart, is the property properly insulated with sufficient ventilaltion?

Sleeper12

pilly wrote: »

I don't believe lack of heat doesn't cause problems in a house. Have you ever been in a house that hasn't had heating on for a year? You can feel the damp in the air.

It doesn't really matter what you think as this doesn't change the facts. I don't mean to sound cheeky saying this.

Read what i wrote, i said "If they are causing damp by not heating the house". Not heating a house in cold and damp weather can absolutely cause issues.

Not heating the house wont cause the house any damage. However is the house is badly maintained & already has issues then the cold might highlight the existing issues.

There are 1000s of properly maintained & insulated holiday homes all over Ireland that has not heating at all during the winter as they aren't lived in. This does them no harm.
You can not force someone to heat a home that they are renting. Even if op offered to pay for the heat the tenant can refuse.

intheclouds

Sleeper12 wrote: »

It doesn't really matter what you think as this doesn't change the facts. I don't mean to sound cheeky saying this.



Not heating the house wont cause the house any damage. However is the house is badly maintained & already has issues then the cold might highlight the existing issues.

There are 1000s of properly maintained & insulated holiday homes all over Ireland that has not heating at all during the winter as they aren't lived in. This does them no harm.
You can not force someone to heat a home that they are renting. Even if op offered to pay for the heat the tenant can refuse.

Eh, a non lived in house does not have someone in there washing, cooking, drying clothes etc and putting moisture in the air.

We're not talking about heating places people don't live in. They'll be dry.

If a house is lived in, people produce moisture.

pilly

Deleted User wrote: »

I lived in a house that was cold and damp and it wasn't from us not heating it. I could have poured my entire salary into trying to heat the place, and it would have remained cold and damp. On windy evenings there was a noticeable breeze in the sitting room, because the windows werent sealed.

As other posters have said, its only gotten cold in the last couple of weeks. Ive had my electric fire on once or twice this winter, and I've not switched the radiators on anywhere except in the hall because its not been cold enough. If I was living somewhere with poor ventilation and poor insulation id be in the same boat as the OP's tenants in that he'd be complaining Im not heating the place, when in reality ive not needed to, and we dont have any problems with dampness.

OP, hand on heart, is the property properly insulated with sufficient ventilaltion?

Some older houses are badly insulated and ventilated but this can't be solved very easily, costs a lot of money to fix it.

Sleeper12

intheclouds wrote: »

Eh, a non lived in house does not have someone in there washing, cooking, drying clothes etc and putting moisture in the air.

We're not talking about heating places people don't live in. They'll be dry.

If a house is lived in, people produce moisture.

They still have no legal responsibility to heat the house. Even with all the above going on you shouldn't need to have heating on. A house should be able to deal with all these things with proper ventilation. You will ONLY get issues if there's not enough insulation, ventilation etc. these are the LLs problem. As someone already pointed out it's actually built into a lease about tenants comfort. If the property isn't up to standard there's nothing stopping LL form filling up with oil & asking nicely if tenant would turn the heat on for an hour everyday.

pilly

Sleeper12 wrote: »

It doesn't really matter what you think as this doesn't change the facts. I don't mean to sound cheeky saying this.


Not heating the house wont cause the house any damage. However is the house is badly maintained & already has issues then the cold might highlight the existing issues.

There are 1000s of properly maintained & insulated holiday homes all over Ireland that has not heating at all during the winter as they aren't lived in. This does them no harm.
You can not force someone to heat a home that they are renting. Even if op offered to pay for the heat the tenant can refuse.

It does sound cheeky, what makes your opinion fact?