my observations for today - people on low/no income

Andy From Sligo

ok heres my observations:

A load of people on low or hardly any income have something like pre-pay electric where they "top-up" their payments ... but the standing charge or Tarrif for this equipment is higher (a lot higher I think) than standard standing charge or tarrif, surely if the people are on low income this should not be in an ideal world?

People who have taken out loans when they are in work - if they happen to have lost their jobs should have the interest on the loans from the financial institutions (whether it be banks/credit card insitutions or whoever) paid by the government (or if you want to look at it, paid by people in Ireland in employment in the form of taxes because we all know its not the governments money) for the duration the person being unemployed?

Should people be able to go to Bank or other properly run institution to get a loan, if they are forced in some way to use a 'loan shark' or some place that charges excessive interest rates instead of being turned away?

Pick this posts logics to bits if you want ... or if you think they are do-able logics that could be put into place please say so. - i am open to all opinions (please attack the post - not the poster )

Grayson

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

ok heres my observations:

A load of people on low or hardly any income have something like pre-pay electric where they "top-up" their payments ... but the standing charge or Tarrif for this equipment is higher (a lot higher I think) than standard standing charge or tarrif, surely if the people are on low income this should not be in an ideal world?

I actually wrote a 40k word dissertation on that. Well, it was on prepaid utilities in Ireland.

To sum up the social aspect of it. You're right (How the fcuk did I get 40k words out of that).

endacl

It's a subtle poverty trap. Like not being able to avail of a tiny discount for paying motor tax in ine lump sum.

Grayson

endacl wrote: »

It's a subtle poverty trap. Like not being able to avail of a tiny discount for paying motor tax in ine lump sum.

One of the things I read about in the UK is how banks don't put ATM's in poorer neighbourhoods. Private companies do but there's a charge for using them. Since poorer people withdraw less cash at a time then they pay more to use these machines than better off people.

martinedwards

Also local supermarkets don't have the super cheap ranges in stock. 24c beans? Nope just the 90c ones. How is that fair?

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Should people be able to go to Bank or other properly run institution to get a loan, if they are forced in some way to use a 'loan shark' or some place that charges excessive interest rates instead of being turned away?

They can. My ex went to the credit union when she was financially crippled with a Provident loan, and they lent her the money to pay it off over a longer period, with much lower repayments. No savings history, just a guarantor. They accepted the Provident loan book as proof of ability to repay.

emo72

So yeah. The poor get screwed. And get even poorer. And the rich get richer. It seems to be getting more polarised currently. Strange things are happening.

Disenfranchised people.... Nothing to lose.... You know where this ends up!

K-9

Grayson wrote: »

I actually wrote a 40k word dissertation on that. Well, it was on prepaid utilities in Ireland.

To sum up the social aspect of it. You're right (How the fcuk did I get 40k words out of that).

Might suit some people more. Some wouldn't bother much about what appliances are eating up electricity otherwise, plus some might have to budget on a week by week basis.

Andy From Sligo

emo72 wrote: »

So yeah. The poor get screwed. And get even poorer. And the rich get richer. It seems to be getting more polarised currently. Strange things are happening.

Disenfranchised people.... Nothing to lose.... You know where this ends up!

maybe all the poor people should be eradicated from this world (sounds like Dickensian scrooge) and just let the rich, successful people live/thrive - (not being sarcastic about your post at all - just tongue in cheek sarcasm about the situation this world is in)

K-9

But we can make money from poor people!

Widdershins

Those pre pay meters are meant to be more economical these days I think there used to be a stigma to them but I know a few people who chose to get one. I thought one of the companies was advertising theirs as the cheapest in Ireland?

And yes as someone said these things are examples of the poverty trap. A vicious circle.

pure.conya

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

ok heres my observations:

A load of people on low or hardly any income have something like pre-pay electric where they "top-up" their payments ... but the standing charge or Tarrif for this equipment is higher (a lot higher I think) than standard standing charge or tarrif, surely if the people are on low income this should not be in an ideal world?

it was the same with mobile phones until recently, billed tarriffs were way cheaper but then people could run up a hige bill and not be in a position to pay, if you pre-paid they just fleeced you

Grayson

K-9 wrote: »

Might suit some people more. Some wouldn't bother much about what appliances are eating up electricity otherwise, plus some might have to budget on a week by week basis.

The biggest problem with it is the deposits. Poorer people can't afford the deposit even though they might be able to afford the bills. So they opt to go with prepaid. (As a side note, in my studies I found a hotel that did this. A guy bought a small hotel and electric ireland etc wanted well over 10k as a deposit. The guy couldn't afford it so he got a prepaid meter and threw 1k in credit on it). When you're poor and have a history of arrears the deposits can be larger. Plus there's the re-connection fee every time you get disconnected.

Plus poorer families live in poorer housing. There's no financial incentive for a landlord to upgrade the house to make it more energy efficient. A MABs survey found that something like 30% of rented accommodation didn't have adequate lagging on their boiler. Many don't have insulation in the roof.

The other big problem with it is that a lot of poorer people have found themselves in positions where they have chosen to buy food for their kids rather than top up a prepaid electric or gas meter. Something like 10% of poor people report regular intervals during the winter where they go without heat.

It's a strange catch 22. Poorer people pay more for energy than more well off people. And since they pay more it's a greater proportion of their income

On page 33-34 here they talk about fuel poverty.
https://www.svp.ie/getattachment/0dfc3b0e-9165-4792-946e-43f84199eb57/It-s-The-Hardest-Job-in-The-World.aspx

The whole paper is really depressing.

jester77

It is an unfair world. Look at energy saving, if you want energy efficient appliances then you pay a lot more, the initial outlay is always bigger but you save in the long run. Low income people cannot afford that initial large outlay. Even just simple things like your kettle and light bulbs are costing a lot more.

Grayson

jester77 wrote: »

It is an unfair world. Look at energy saving, if you want energy efficient appliances then you pay a lot more, the initial outlay is always bigger but you save in the long run. Low income people cannot afford that initial large outlay. Even just simple things like your kettle and light bulbs are costing a lot more.

In the Uk they have a product called the hive (It really sounds like where they develop the T-Virus).

The Hive is amazing. It regulates heat throughout the house. You can set the heating on a room by room basis. So if you know you won't be in the bedroom all day, switch off the heating in the bedroom. And you can do it on your phone. You can set timers per room etc and all from the app. It will even generate recommended plans based on your usage. Thing is it costs something like £600. The savings made mean that the system pays for itself within 18 months to two years. But it's too expensive for poor people.

The CER had plans to roll out a smart metering system in Ireland. It hasn't happened. Smart metering means that you can buy your electricity at the cheapest times. So when it's windy and all the turbines are producing loads of energy there will be a drop in price. Using apps and stuff you can actually save loads of money but it's still not here.

And as you said it's expensive to go energy efficient. It's even more expensive or even impossible in rented accommodation. Private landlords have very little incentive to do anything.

MilesMorales1

****ing providence scumbags. Hate loan sharks like that.

Donal55

Older cars=High car tax and loaded for insurance.
Yep, the low paid get screwed.

Grayson

MilesMorales1 wrote: »

****ing providence scumbags. Hate loan sharks like that.

Payday loans.... Scum of the earth.

Andy From Sligo

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy wrote: »

They can. My ex went to the credit union when she was financially crippled with a Provident loan, ..

is it still requirement though you have to have money in the credit union to get a loan though? - if you really poor, your more than likely have no money saved in CU

mikeym

Grayson wrote: »

Payday loans.... Scum of the earth.

Lucky for us those payday loan sharks like Wonga cant operate here.

Widdershins

Donal55 wrote: »

Older cars=High car tax and loaded for insurance.
Yep, the low paid get screwed.

Supposedly an environment-related incentive yet replacing your car every year or so bolsters the dirty, polluting business of manufacturing new cars.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

is it still requirement though you have to have money in the credit union to get a loan though? - if you really poor, your more than likely have no money saved in CU

It was years ago, so I forget. She only opened the account to get the loan, so there was no savings history. I can't remember if I gave her €50 or something like that just as a deposit for the loan, but I went as guarantor.

Each credit union is different though, so you'd have to check. But my point is it can be done.

Grayson

mikeym wrote: »

Lucky for us those payday loan sharks like Wonga cant operate here.

They do kinda... They have offices here. I know a few people I used to work with who moved to them. They get paid well and apparently it's a good place to work but I couldn't do it. Their business model is based on milking human misery.

The same is true for online gambling. Paddy Power themselves estimate that about 1/3 of people who gamble online have an addiction. But they have very little to stop these people from throwing away their money.

maudgonner

The credit unions are bringing in (or maybe it's already in place at this stage, it was announced a while ago) a new scheme for giving loans as an alternative to money lenders.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0726/805028-loan-scheme/

Hope it works, it's badly needed.

Colser

Bank charges on accounts that people can't afford to keep above a certain amount.

Widdershins

The credit union loan that was mentioned seems to be in operation now but is only available for social welfare recipients. While I think it's a fantastic idea, it ignores the working poor.

emo72

doesnt islamic banks have some system that means they cant charge interest? if so *adapts joan burton tone* "can i just say, thats one good thing islam has done".

also..also... i read that michael collins had an idea for irsh banks at the foundation of the state to not charge interest or something fair like that. but then those bastids fianna fail got control, and shot that plan down. maybe denis o brien made a donation or something. anyway we got screwed then also.

anyway i have my leccy bill for say 20 years then one month i was late paying and lo and behold, they were straight on the blower asking if i wanted to go to prepay! the neck on them.

K-9

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

is it still requirement though you have to have money in the credit union to get a loan though? - if you really poor, your more than likely have no money saved in CU

There's a new Government encouraged scheme for Credit union loans to replace money lenders, don't know if it is nationwide though.

K-9

Grayson wrote: »

The biggest problem with it is the deposits. Poorer people can't afford the deposit even though they might be able to afford the bills. So they opt to go with prepaid. (As a side note, in my studies I found a hotel that did this. A guy bought a small hotel and electric ireland etc wanted well over 10k as a deposit. The guy couldn't afford it so he got a prepaid meter and threw 1k in credit on it). When you're poor and have a history of arrears the deposits can be larger. Plus there's the re-connection fee every time you get disconnected.

Plus poorer families live in poorer housing. There's no financial incentive for a landlord to upgrade the house to make it more energy efficient. A MABs survey found that something like 30% of rented accommodation didn't have adequate lagging on their boiler. Many don't have insulation in the roof.

The other big problem with it is that a lot of poorer people have found themselves in positions where they have chosen to buy food for their kids rather than top up a prepaid electric or gas meter. Something like 10% of poor people report regular intervals during the winter where they go without heat.

It's a strange catch 22. Poorer people pay more for energy than more well off people. And since they pay more it's a greater proportion of their income

On page 33-34 here they talk about fuel poverty.
https://www.svp.ie/getattachment/0dfc3b0e-9165-4792-946e-43f84199eb57/It-s-The-Hardest-Job-in-The-World.aspx

The whole paper is really depressing.

I suppose the argument is, if people are struggling to pay their bill on a bimonthly or monthly basis and getting cut off, topping up weekly should be easier to manage. Even if you run out of credit you can top up when you get paid or the social comes in, so less time with no electricity if things are that bad.

I think there was a budgeting service provided by the SW and MABS, don't know if it's still going. I assume they'd take so much out to go towards utility bills so that might help.

cbyrd

Andy From Sligo wrote:

Should people be able to go to Bank or other properly run institution to get a loan, if they are forced in some way to use a 'loan shark' or some place that charges excessive interest rates instead of being turned away?

Some credit unions now have a loan linked to your pps number, it allows for repayment to be taken directly from your social welfare payment. Say E500 over 6 months at E25 per week. Gets deducted at the post office so it's guaranteed. There's 1 or 2 in every county I think, it's to stamp out loan sharks.

ahnowbrowncow

SSIA. Basically free money for people with money, poorer people couldn't avail of it. You could increase your return to more than 30% just from banks paying interest on the amount you saved.

Not huge money but I'm sure there were a lot of people who could have done with €4,000 or so after the 5 years but just didn't have the money to avail of it.

Grayson

K-9 wrote: »

I suppose the argument is, if people are struggling to pay their bill on a bimonthly or monthly basis and getting cut off, topping up weekly should be easier to manage. Even if you run out of credit you can top up when you get paid or the social comes in, so less time with no electricity if things are that bad.

I think there was a budgeting service provided by the SW and MABS, don't know if it's still going. I assume they'd take so much out to go towards utility bills so that might help.

Most people living in poverty say that prepay allows them to budget better it's just that for some budgeting isn't workable because they're just too poor. And MAB's still have the service as far as I know (It's been three years since I studied that).

emo72 wrote: »

doesnt islamic banks have some system that means they cant charge interest? if so *adapts joan burton tone* "can i just say, thats one good thing islam has done".

also..also... i read that michael collins had an idea for irsh banks at the foundation of the state to not charge interest or something fair like that. but then those bastids fianna fail got control, and shot that plan down. maybe denis o brien made a donation or something. anyway we got screwed then also.

anyway i have my leccy bill for say 20 years then one month i was late paying and lo and behold, they were straight on the blower asking if i wanted to go to prepay! the neck on them.

Pinergy and companies like that charge a standard rate for the electricity but also charge a "rental" for the pre paid meter. That's where they make their money.

Electric Ireland etc do something similar but they make their margin by charging a slightly higher rate for electricity. They also charge a fixed service charge per year.

All companies make more money off prepaid power than off bill pay.

And Islamic banks can't charge interest to muslims. They can to others because the others will charge them interest too.

old boy

some thing to make people really think
http://www.euroweeklynews.com/3.0.15/news/on-euro-weekly-news/spain-news-in-english/142002-spanish-grandmother-forced-to-use-candles-for-light-dies-after-mattress-catches-fire?utm_source=newsletter_8139&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ewn-alerts-spain-news

ChikiChiki

Swear I'll never get a car/personal loan again, not even a mortgage if I can avoid. Worked in the bank in my 20s and they threw a heap of money at me which I spent on cars and holidays and generally having a good time. One time I emailed staff business and €10k was in my account a couple of hours later. Idiotic stuff altogether. I've only about €6k left thank god but it crushed me making them repayments through the recession.

Never again! Lesson learned.

gctest50

old boy wrote: »

some thing to make people really think
http://www.euroweeklynews.com/3.0.15/news/on-euro-weekly-news/spain-news-in-english/142002-spanish-grandmother-forced-to-use-candles-for-light-dies-after-mattress-catches-fire?utm_source=newsletter_8139&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ewn-alerts-spain-news

Live prices of electricity in Spain : ( i think )

http://tarifaluzhora.es/

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Donal55

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

SSIA. Basically free money for people with money, poorer people couldn't avail of it. You could increase your return to more than 30% just from banks paying interest on the amount you saved.

Not huge money but I'm sure there were a lot of people who could have done with €4,000 or so after the 5 years but just didn't have the money to avail of it.

Forgot that one. My sister, married to an Army officer, had their childrens allowance diverted straight into that account. Money for old rope, if you could afford it.