CrewCab tax gone

Theanswers

Lads, there has been a change in the last few days regarding CrewCab tax. Apparently alot of vehicles no longer making it through, including the L322 RR, Discovery and Landcruiser.

Does anyone know anything about it?

Ireland... What a great country to live in, nothing is ever easy here.

166man

This whole ''welcome to Ireland'' is a load of rubbish.

It was a loophole in the system and people were exploiting it.

If you want to fork out €50-€60k for a Land Rover Discovery you can afford to pay more road tax on it.

Theanswers

There was no loophole. It was the definitions as laid down by the EU.

I actually have one old Land Cruiser, which now cannot be taxed, not a wiff of 50,000 grand about it.

Typical smart reply.

Ever wonder why all my generation leave this country and don't come back.

screamer

I hate unhelpful answers so maybe this will help OP:
Proposal to Convert from EU Category M1 to N1
Where it is proposed to change a vehicle’s EU category from M1 to N1, the masses and dimensions must be confirmed by a National Standards Authority of Ireland (NSAI) Approved Test Centre whose scope covers - 'Test: 48. Masses and Dimensions (not passenger cars)'.External linkThe dimensions must be measured by the laser measuring device and computed by the software approved by the NSAI for the taking of such measurements. From 1 November 2016 this must be confirmed in the declaration of conversion documents. Vehicles that do not meet the criteria for EU Category N1 will be deemed to be M1 vehicles.

Please note that no vehicle will be registered or recorded as N1 from 1 November 2016 unless there is a suitable confirmation from an Approved Test Centre

and more info on:http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/vehicle-conversions.html

hth

Gumbo

So I can continue to tax my current crew cab next year as it's converted over 2 years?

It was certified by an NSAI Certified Company here in Dublin.

Special Circumstances

screamer wrote: »

I hate unhelpful answers so maybe this will help OP:
Proposal to Convert from EU Category M1 to N1
Where it is proposed to change a vehicle’s EU category from M1 to N1, the masses and dimensions must be confirmed by a National Standards Authority of Ireland (NSAI) Approved Test Centre whose scope covers - 'Test: 48. Masses and Dimensions (not passenger cars)'.External linkThe dimensions must be measured by the laser measuring device and computed by the software approved by the NSAI for the taking of such measurements. From 1 November 2016 this must be confirmed in the declaration of conversion documents. Vehicles that do not meet the criteria for EU Category N1 will be deemed to be M1 vehicles.

Please note that no vehicle will be registered or recorded as N1 from 1 November 2016 unless there is a suitable confirmation from an Approved Test Centre

and more info on:http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/vehicle-conversions.html

hth

So have the measurements changed or is a higher standard of accountability now required of those signing off on these?

Gumbo

screamer wrote: »

I hate unhelpful answers so maybe this will help OP:
Proposal to Convert from EU Category M1 to N1
Where it is proposed to change a vehicle’s EU category from M1 to N1, the masses and dimensions must be confirmed by a National Standards Authority of Ireland (NSAI) Approved Test Centre whose scope covers - 'Test: 48. Masses and Dimensions (not passenger cars)'.External linkThe dimensions must be measured by the laser measuring device and computed by the software approved by the NSAI for the taking of such measurements. From 1 November 2016 this must be confirmed in the declaration of conversion documents. Vehicles that do not meet the criteria for EU Category N1 will be deemed to be M1 vehicles.

Please note that no vehicle will be registered or recorded as N1 from 1 November 2016 unless there is a suitable confirmation from an Approved Test Centre

and more info on:http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/vehicle-conversions.html

hth

So they have simply removed the human measurement from the equation and made the test more strict by having to use laser guided equipment?

This is how a lot of E53 X5's got through in the early days as the human could write what they wanted on a piece of paper.

screamer

I'd give revenue a call but from what I read on that website your vehicle must have a test 48 from an approved centre (of which there are less than 40 in the country), to state that your vehicle is class N compliant. here are the centres: http://www.nsai.ie/Our-Services/Certification/Automotive-Certification/Type-Approval/Approved-Test-Centers.aspx

I also know that some councils are looking for proof that you need a crew cab for your work, before they will tax them as class N also. I'd imagine they've lost a fortune when vehicles once costing 1K plus to tax are now just 333 euro and are desperately trying to claw it back.

Eric Cartman

kceire wrote: »

So they have simply removed the human measurement from the equation and made the test more strict by having to use laser guided equipment?

This is how a lot of E53 X5's got through in the early days as the human could write what they wanted on a piece of paper.

a lot of inaccurate measuring tapes have been knocking about for the last year :pac:


So to qualify, for anyone who had a heart attack reading the title of this thread (like me)

1. If you have a registered crew cab at present , you're grand, continue on as normal.

2. Registering a vehicle as a crew cab now requires testing at one of the very few centres listed in that NSAI link, this testing is done with precise laser equipment so theres no tricks to be pulled.


For some the conversion might be about the tax, as everyone seems to think, but many of these conversions (like mine) are legitimately used for business. The biggest issue is, there are very few comfortable, nice driving commercial vehicles for sale, especially if you don't have new vehicle money. Sometimes you require seats (especially in IT it seems , where engineers with driving licences are actually hard to find)

the other benefits of an N1 commercial conversion aside from saving a grand in tax are :

VRT Discounts
Loading bay use
Cheaper insurance for a lot of demographics
Diesel VAT reclaim
Capitol write-offs for depreciation, repairs etc..

Eric Cartman

Eric Cartman wrote: »

........

the other benefits of an N1 commercial conversion aside from saving a grand in tax are :

VRT Discounts
Loading bay use
Cheaper insurance for a lot of demographics
Diesel VAT reclaim
Capitol write-offs for depreciation, repairs etc..

Someone should be paying quite a bit in BIK unless their doing significant business miles if a crewcab is company owned.
Even the Korean things be €40k ish new.

Eric Cartman

Augeo wrote: »

Someone should be paying quite a bit in BIK unless their doing significant business miles if a crewcab is company owned.
Even the Korean things be €40k ish new.

All business miles. I have a private car for private use

Apologies........ wasn't at all referring to yourself, the generic "someone"

As travel to and from work is private use revenue don't often swallow the all business miles view though as people take the P a bit with it. The car pool, kept at business address which is also home stuff etc etc is really subjective.

Again not at all referring to yourself, just people taking the P

Atlantic Dawn

I can see this increasing the price of those already designated as crew cabs.

Out of interest why do they need to be individually measured at all, surely the manufacturers would have all the official figures they need for each vehicle?

Gumbo

screamer wrote: »

I'd give revenue a call but from what I read on that website your vehicle must have a test 48 from an approved centre (of which there are less than 40 in the country), to state that your vehicle is class N compliant. here are the centres: http://www.nsai.ie/Our-Services/Certification/Automotive-Certification/Type-Approval/Approved-Test-Centers.aspx

I also know that some councils are looking for proof that you need a crew cab for your work, before they will tax them as class N also. I'd imagine they've lost a fortune when vehicles once costing 1K plus to tax are now just 333 euro and are desperately trying to claw it back.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

a lot of inaccurate measuring tapes have been knocking about for the last year :pac:


So to qualify, for anyone who had a heart attack reading the title of this thread (like me)

1. If you have a registered crew cab at present , you're grand, continue on as normal.

2. Registering a vehicle as a crew cab now requires testing at one of the very few centres listed in that NSAI link, this testing is done with precise laser equipment so theres no tricks to be pulled.


For some the conversion might be about the tax, as everyone seems to think, but many of these conversions (like mine) are legitimately used for business. The biggest issue is, there are very few comfortable, nice driving commercial vehicles for sale, especially if you don't have new vehicle money. Sometimes you require seats (especially in IT it seems , where engineers with driving licences are actually hard to find)

the other benefits of an N1 commercial conversion aside from saving a grand in tax are :

VRT Discounts
Loading bay use
Cheaper insurance for a lot of demographics
Diesel VAT reclaim
Capitol write-offs for depreciation, repairs etc..

Nothing to worry about here then. Mine was done by Argent which are on the NSAO list. All my certificates have NSAI stamps on them too.

Atlantic Dawn

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

......

Out of interest why do they need to be individually measured at all, surely the manufacturers would have all the official figures they need for each vehicle?

Manufacturers would have figures for new Discovery and the landcruisers but I'm thinking X5s etc were never manufacturer sold as commercial.

I would assume most will still pass and this will just effect dodgy one that probably shouldn't have been passing anyway. Land cruisers, pajeros, discoverys etc which are sold new as crew cabs and are quite big should still be converted no problem.

Yara Famous Statute

Yara Famous Statute wrote: »

I would assume most will still pass and this will just effect dodgy one that probably shouldn't have been passing anyway........

Indeed

mikeecho

So...

The crew cab tax rate remains.
And there is no change to the system, other than removing the ability for it to be cheated by unscrupulous people.

mikeecho

mikeecho wrote: »

So...

The crew cab tax rate remains.
And there is no change to the system, other than removing the ability for it to be cheated by unscrupulous people.

Pretty much spot on.

Gumbo

Augeo wrote: »

Manufacturers would have figures for new Discovery and the landcruisers but I'm thinking X5s etc were never manufacturer sold as commercial.

This is irrelevant as the crew cab measurement allows the car to keep its standard 5 seats so the private vehicle which BMW produced in Germany is simply re-classed as N1 (admin/paper exercise).

kceire

kceire wrote: »

This is irrelevant as the crew cab measurement allows the car to keep its standard 5 seats so the private vehicle which BMW produced in Germany is simply re-classed as N1 (admin/paper exercise).

If so and it's a case of simply re-classifying as N1 why does "Registering a vehicle as a crew cab now requires testing at one of the very few centres listed in that NSAI link, this testing is done with precise laser equipment so theres no tricks to be pulled. "

I'm referring to 5 seat crew cabs as commercials in my post that you have labelled irrelevant.

Augeo

Augeo wrote: »

If so and it's a case of simply re-classifying as N1 why does "Registering a vehicle as a crew cab now requires testing at one of the very few centres listed in that NSAI link, this testing is done with precise laser equipment so theres no tricks to be pulled. "

I'm referring to 5 seat crew cabs as commercials in my post that you have labelled irrelevant.

Because if the factory certify it as crewcab then it doesn't need to be measured, the factory is essentially trusted to be only certifying vechicles that meet the requirements. If you are converting then they don't have a a factory certification so it needs to pass the required regulations regardless if it's known that it will pass.

Things like ensuring there aren't 7 seats etc would be good reasons to be checked over and certified.

I don't even know why Toyota, Mitsubishi etc would even bother selling anything but 5 seat commercials now (unless someone wants a 7 seater) as the price difference is very large between a 5 seater passenger and a 5 seater commercial and I don't think anyone in their right mind would pay the price difference.

Gumbo

Augeo wrote: »

If so and it's a case of simply re-classifying as N1 why does "Registering a vehicle as a crew cab now requires testing at one of the very few centres listed in that NSAI link, this testing is done with precise laser equipment so theres no tricks to be pulled. "

I'm referring to 5 seat crew cabs as commercials in my post that you have labelled irrelevant.

it was in response to the comment that the data is available for other cars but not X5's as they were never sold as commercial, which is 100% correct and they still don't to this day but I was only pointing out that the same data is already there for the X5 as no physical modification is required.

The government just want a second layer of protection and checking as up until recently we had very large scams of commercial stuff coming down and reclassed as private after commercial vrt been paid (just one of the many scams).

Theanswers

I was told today that neither the L322 Range Rover or Standard Land Cruiser will qualify and is not on the 'list'?

Hence my anger and disappointment.

hannible the cannible

Theanswers wrote: »

I was told today that neither the L322 Range Rover or Standard Land Cruiser will qualify and is not on the 'list'?

Hence my anger and disappointment.

Are you talking about new models only ?

BorneTobyWilde

Land Cruiser won't qualify . What about those farmers?

The landcruiser will qualify, they are being sold new as 5 seat commercials.

A lot of misinformation in this thread.

Atlantic Dawn

If the councils in each area revert back to insist on actual measuring as per new spec it will mean a lot of metal hitting the market.

BorneTobyWilde

What exactly are the measurements and can you alter a vehicle if it needed to be so it could meet the spec ?

KwackerJack

screamer wrote: »

I'd give revenue a call but from what I read on that website your vehicle must have a test 48 from an approved centre (of which there are less than 40 in the country), to state that your vehicle is class N compliant. here are the centres: http://www.nsai.ie/Our-Services/Certification/Automotive-Certification/Type-Approval/Approved-Test-Centers.aspx

I also know that some councils are looking for proof that you need a crew cab for your work, before they will tax them as class N also. I'd imagine they've lost a fortune when vehicles once costing 1K plus to tax are now just 333 euro and are desperately trying to claw it back.

If the tax rates were reasonable more people would pay and they would probably make more money!!

As usual its greed greed greed

KwackerJack

Yara Famous Statute wrote: »

The landcruiser will qualify, they are being sold new as 5 seat commercials.

A lot of misinformation in this thread.[/quote


What you are saying is only new Landcruisers will qualify.......I can see why a person why buys a cheap landcruiser or jeep would want the cheaper tax, however should you be in a position to pay 40+k then your well capable of paying the standard tax.

Cookie_Monster

Every time a thread like this appears I try and think why Ireland needs such a ludicrous system of commercial separation, it really just doesn't make any sense.

Hilux and Ranger are top 2 selling cars over here and make up nearly 50% of the market between them IIRC. They would do well in Ire too IMO if it wasn't for the ridiculous restrictions!

J.pilkington

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

If the councils in each area revert back to insist on actual measuring as per new spec it will mean a lot of metal hitting the market.

What have councils got to do with it?

Cookie_Monster

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Every time a thread like this appears I try and think why Ireland needs such a ludicrous system of commercial separation, it really just doesn't make any sense.

Hilux and Ranger are top 2 selling cars over here and make up nearly 50% of the market between them IIRC. They would do well in Ire too IMO if it wasn't for the ridiculous restrictions!

New passenger X5s and XC90 diesels are €390/annum to tax.
For most folks a qashqai or similar is more than adequate and costs less than half to buy new.

A double cab Hilux is €37k ish and not really as suitable for family life as a qashqai or similar

Theanswers

Yara Famous Statute wrote: »

The landcruiser will qualify, they are being sold new as 5 seat commercials.

A lot of misinformation in this thread.

I'm trying to get mine one inspected. Currently there is a freeze on all inspection and I quote, it is not on the list!!

I rang three different companies.

KwackerJack

KwackerJack wrote: »

What you are saying is only new Landcruisers will qualify.......I can see why a person why buys a cheap landcruiser or jeep would want the cheaper tax, however should you be in a position to pay 40+k then your well capable of paying the standard tax.

No what I'm saying is if a new one qualifies then older ones will too, the same model has to qualify and the landcruiser hasn't changed much in years so I can't see them all not qualifying.

The rest of your post is total nonsense, you are just entitled to the cheap tax and lower vrt if buying new than buying an older one. Also paying 40k for a new one does not mean you have money to be throwing 1500 euro at tax every year. Buying new on pcp etc makes buying something for 40k affordable.

It's also primarily aimed at business users and they should be able to conduct their buisiness without having to pay stupid rates of tax. I suppose you should only be able to claim back the vat on diesel on older ones too sure if you can buy one you can afford the diesel....absolute and utter horse sh*t.

Av8or

Have any of the approved NSAI centres provided a current list of which vehicles do now qualify?

Whilst it was obvious that the previous system was abused i.e. crew cab Cayennes* / Touaregs* and certain conversion companies who would crewcab 'anything' (* - some companies would convert these, others wouldn't). There was also mention that some county authorities held differing views on what qualified and what didn't.

Maybe they are trying to introduce some consistency to the whole scheme? Anyway, the Irish government have got away breaching EU rules with things like VRT on imported EU vehicles (double taxation) so why can't they make up their own rules re N1 vehicles? For the record, I have to pay over a grand private motor tax on a vehicle that is used exclusively for commercial use as the vehicle doesn't fit into one of the neat EU classification boxes (minibus for customers (non-PSV) use).

Theanswers

I rang the NSAI today. Currently nothing that they have tested qualifies.

Including L322 RR and LCs etc.

Av8or

Does this mean they haven't tested the likes of the Land Cruiser Amazon etc?

Theanswers

Theanswers wrote: »

I rang the NSAI today. Currently nothing that they have tested qualifies.

Including L322 RR and LCs etc.

But how can they not qualify, the regulations have not changed. If they were properly measured last week and passed then they will pass today.

Horse1920

Yara Famous Statute wrote: »

But how can they not qualify, the regulations have not changed. If they were properly measured last week and passed then they will pass today.

Nothing seems to comply since 1 Nov.. Rang and talked to several centers that used to do it. Was inquiring specifically for a lr4 discovery.. Not good

Horse1920

Theanswers wrote: »

I rang the NSAI today. Currently nothing that they have tested qualifies.

Including L322 RR and LCs etc.

This is unfortunately 100% correct

Casey78

I have a Ford Kuga 4 seat Commercial. Anyone know if that qualifies? I use it for work mainly. I'm a self employed Electrician.

Horse1920

Casey78 wrote: »

I have a Ford Kuga 4 seat Commercial. Anyone know if that qualifies? I use it for work mainly. I'm a self employed Electrician.

Think if it's done already it's OK.

Horse1920

Horse1920 wrote: »

Nothing seems to comply since 1 Nov.. Rang and talked to several centers that used to do it. Was inquiring specifically for a lr4 discovery.. Not good

I find this very hard to believe considering many of these vehicles are sold new as 5 seat commercials and officially certified as being compliant.

Again the dimensions have not changed and unless every conversion in the country was dodgy (which the vast majority were not) then these conversions had to meet the rules. Are you really saying that every person doing conversions was unable to measure correctly?

I have seen people just miss out and others just qualify for a conversion going by the exact dimension rules so they are obviously being compliant with the rules.

tedimc

Augeo wrote: »

New passenger X5s and XC90 diesels are €390/annum to tax.
For most folks a qashqai or similar is more than adequate and costs less than half to buy new.

A double cab Hilux is €37k ish and not really as suitable for family life as a qashqai or similar

I suspect the reason many people need one is the ability to tow, maybe not every day but a few times a month. I'm changing from a Toyota RAV to an LC - because the RAV is just dangerous with a trailer on it. My experience of the Qashqai is even worse.

What about a new LC/business models? I presume they should still be ok?
Whatever about the road tax, the VRT would be the killer.....

Horse1920

Yara Famous Statute wrote: »

I find this very hard to believe considering many of these vehicles are sold new as 5 seat commercials and officially certified as being compliant.

Again the dimensions have not changed and unless every conversion in the country was dodgy (which the vast majority were not) then these conversions had to meet the rules. Are you really saying that every person doing conversions was unable to measure correctly?

I have seen people just miss out and others just qualify for a conversion going by the exact dimension rules so they are obviously being compliant with the rules.

I was of the same opinion until I tried booking in a discovery (which was previously compliant) but now is not. I know this for a fact. If you don't believe it just call any center that used to do it... Don't take my word.

Horse1920

tedimc wrote: »

I suspect the reason many people need one is the ability to tow, maybe not every day but a few times a month. I'm changing from a Toyota RAV to an LC - because the RAV is just dangerous with a trailer on it. My experience of the Qashqai is even worse.

What about a new LC/business models? I presume they should still be ok?
Whatever about the road tax, the VRT would be the killer.....

You can still get a commercial LC or Disco or whatever just not a 5 seat.

Theanswers

Is there anything we can do to lobby our TDs. We cannot take this lying down.

Seriously, it's the only way. I imagine alot of people won't be happy.

tom_k

Is there a reason why so many people need crew cab conversions? Especially to vehicles that are not normally considered true commercials i.e. smaller ones.

Am I right in suggesting that the 5 seats are required for transporting work crews for employers who can't consider the cost of purpose built crewcabs and for whom the two/three seat commercial options are of no use?

tom_k

tom_k wrote: »

Is there a reason why so many people need crew cab conversions? Especially to vehicles that are not normally considered true commercials i.e. smaller ones.
....

Cheap tax