Rosslare-Gorey Rail marked for closure

JMT2016

So on last night's prime time this line was one of 4 targeted for closure.

What do you think? Is this important to you?

I was on the service a few times before, always interesting chugging along the quay in wexford town!

I suppose numbers are under pressure from wexford bus and the expanding motorway.

If the M11 motorway was completed, would the railway be major loss?

Have any politicians commented on the impending closure?

Del.Monte

JMT2016 wrote: »

So on last night's prime time this line was one of 4 targeted for closure.

What do you think? Is this important to you?

I was on the service a few times before, always interesting chugging along the quay in wexford town!

I suppose numbers are under pressure from wexford bus and the expanding motorway.

If the M11 motorway was completed, would the railway be major loss?

Have any politicians commented on the impending closure?

Of course it would be a major loss and despite CIE doing their best to run the service into the ground there's still plenty of business south of Gorey. As for buses being an alternative....tell that to people who wait for the constantly late buses on the quay in Enniscorthy.

Cantona's Collars

The puzzling thing is the train leaves Rosslare port about 10 minutes before the ferry docks,now that is stupid.Go to Fishguard and the train leaves the station after the ferry docks.

Another thought is once Enniscorthy is bypassed we could see an influx of new commuters move South to avail of cheaper housing.Many won't want to drive to Dublin and back every day so the train is handy,saves on fuel,the hassle of driving and depreciation of their cars.

Sue Pa Key Pa

People want the thought of having the train, but don't actually want to use it. It's a (very expensive) thing of the past, let it go

vicwatson

zerks wrote: »

The puzzling thing is the train leaves Rosslare port about 10 minutes before the ferry docks,now that is stupid.Go to Fishguard and the train leaves the station after the ferry docks.

Another thought is once Enniscorthy is bypassed we could see an influx of new commuters move South to avail of cheaper housing.Many won't want to drive to Dublin and back every day so the train is handy,saves on fuel,the hassle of driving and depreciation of their cars.

I thought they had changed that?

Id use it a bit to Rosslare if it wasnt as expensive, pisses me off that those using it predominantly is the "bus pass" user - paying absolutely nothing but costing the worker a bomb in subsidies

Del.Monte

Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »

People want the thought of having the train, but don't actually want to use it. It's a (very expensive) thing of the past, let it go

What a ridiculous statement. The trains are busy - you should try one sometime.

Del.Monte

vicwatson wrote: »

I thought they had changed that?

Id use it a bit to Rosslare if it wasnt as expensive, pisses me off that those using it predominantly is the "bus pass" user - paying absolutely nothing but costing the worker a bomb in subsidies

There are plenty of full fare paying passengers. Businesses like Anton Treacy's hotel in Enniscorthy get plenty of people coming down on the train and they sure as hell aren't OAPs. 'Bus pass' users - if you mean OAPs - are entitled to FREE travel as they paid for it during their working years.

Sue Pa Key Pa

Del.Monte wrote: »

What a ridiculous statement. The trains are busy - you should try one sometime.

If they were busy, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I'd never dream of using the train because of the inflexible timetable. You would spend half the day hanging around. Compare these details if you want to travel to Dublin City tomorrow

Irish Rail = €18 = 3 departures = duration 2hrs 25 minutes
Wexford Bus = €17 =17 departures = duration 2hrs 20 minutes
Bus Eireann = €19 = 21 departures = duration 2hrs 15 minutes

I have a car and drive to Sandyford, park & ride and get the LUAS. =duration 1hr 50 minutes & costs around €20. You can divide this by the number of people in the car

3 departures a day is from a bygone era and the running costs are unsustainable. Basically, you can rock up to Redmond Square at anytime and the will be a bus waiting for you

Del.Monte

Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »

If they were busy, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I'd never dream of using the train because of the inflexible timetable. You would spend half the day hanging around. Compare these details if you want to travel to Dublin City tomorrow

Irish Rail = €18 = 3 departures = duration 2hrs 25 minutes
Wexford Bus = €17 =17 departures = duration 2hrs 20 minutes
Bus Eireann = €19 = 21 departures = duration 2hrs 15 minutes

I have a car and drive to Sandyford, park & ride and get the LUAS. =duration 1hr 50 minutes & costs around €20. You can divide this by the number of people in the car

3 departures a day is from a bygone era and the running costs are unsustainable. Basically, you can rock up to Redmond Square at anytime and the will be a bus waiting for you

Where are you getting those fares from? As for the timings - you obviously haven't used the bus service recently - a byword for lateness especially coming from Dublin.

Sue Pa Key Pa

Del.Monte wrote: »

Where are you getting those fares from?.

I looked up the various websites, something which you can do on Wexford Bus

Look, I appreciate people like the train and it can be more pleasant than the bus, but it's not paying it's way and the timetable does not encourage enough people to make it viable

Marhay70

I get the train from Gorey sometimes and there's usually a good few on it before it gets there. Part of the problem is the time it takes to make the journey to Dublin. There's a mile marker outside Gorey station which says 58 miles and that journey can take over two hours, that's an average of less than 30mph which is ridiculous in 2016. Also the scheduling doesn't really suit the shopper, the train at 8.20 is too early for most mothers who have school going children and the next one is not until 2pm, which is too late.
Maybe the solution would be to terminate trains from Wexford at Greystones and increase the frequency so they can connect with Darts. Part of the problem with the timing is trying to fit in with the Dart timetable and I've often sat on a train for five and more minutes outside Greystones, waiting for a late running Dart. I'm sure more people would use the train if the timetable was more user friendly and more passengers could mean lower fares.

WicklowTiger

Marhay70 wrote: »

Maybe the solution would be to terminate trains from Wexford at Greystones and increase the frequency so they can connect with Darts. Part of the problem with the timing is trying to fit in with the Dart timetable and I've often sat on a train for five and more minutes outside Greystones, waiting for a late running Dart. I'm sure more people would use the train if the timetable was more user friendly and more passengers could mean lower fares.

Yes I've often wondered about this. It works from either side - because there is a single track all the way between Rosslare and Greystones (well Bray actually) any delay at all in Dublin for a southbound train causes delays for trains going the other way as the only opportunity for them to pass each other is in stations. Conversely the delay in the Northbound train disrupts the DART schedule and other commuter services as everything else now has to fit around the Rosslare train. Thus any delay either direction has a domino effect that may not resolve itself fully until the next day.

Terminating the Rosslare line at Greystones, or perhaps Bray resolves this - if there's a delay the DART waits or it meets the next one. It would also mean much more scope for expansion if demand increases over time, and surely a more flexible timetable could be adopted. I think if it were put to the people of Wexford they would gladly accept this as a compromise to losing the service altogether.

Del.Monte

No they wouldn't. Messing about and terminating Rosslare trains at Bray would be a disaster. Why not stop the Enterprise at Malahide and force people to change onto the DART there while you're at it?

Sue Pa Key Pa

How would you make it pay or attract sufficient users?

WicklowTiger

Del.Monte wrote: »

No they wouldn't. Messing about and terminating Rosslare trains at Bray would be a disaster. Why not stop the Enterprise at Malahide and force people to change onto the DART there while you're at it?

Suggested as an alternative to removing the service altogether, don't think there's a question over the Belfast line at the moment. Don't see how it's much different to, say, Limerick trains having to change at Limerick Junction.

WicklowTiger

Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »

How would you make it pay or attract sufficient users?

Not sure if that question was directed at me, but if so - I've no idea. Presumably an improved timetable would help. But I don't think there is a railway line in this country (or most for that matter) that could exist without subsidy, so in that respect none of the services pay their way.

Del.Monte

WicklowTiger wrote: »

Suggested as an alternative to removing the service altogether, don't think there's a question over the Belfast line at the moment. Don't see how it's much different to, say, Limerick trains having to change at Limerick Junction.

Because most people, apart from train spotters, prefer not to have to change trains - especially if they have luggage - and then have to fight for space on a DART with no tables or luggage racks. Not an inter-city experience. That said, the Rosslare train is already overused by commuters between Bray and Connolly which diminishes the comfort of the long distance inter-city traveller.

WicklowTiger

Del.Monte wrote: »

Because most people, apart from train spotters, prefer not to have to change trains - especially if they have luggage - and then have to fight for space on a DART with no tables or luggage racks. Not an inter-city experience. That said, the Rosslare train is already overused by commuters between Bray and Connolly which diminishes the comfort of the long distance inter-city traveller.

A fair point, if it were the case that most users of the Dublin - Rosslare service were actually inter-city travellers. I'm not certain that is in fact correct though, anecdotally I would have thought given the distance between the two there's more commuters and day-trippers than anything else. Rarely is there more than a handful of passengers between Wexford and Rosslare so they're certainly not using it in any numbers to connect to the ferries (more often than not a taxi/minibus would suffice from Wexford on!)

Sue Pa Key Pa

Del.Monte wrote: »

Because most people, apart from train spotters, prefer not to have to change trains - especially if they have luggage - and then have to fight for space on a DART with no tables or luggage racks. Not an inter-city experience. That said, the Rosslare train is already overused by commuters between Bray and Connolly which diminishes the comfort of the long distance inter-city traveller.

Pretend you have a blank canvas and are looking for a service (excluding having your own car). Key factors would be flexibility, cost, speed, environmentally friendly & sustainable. The Wexford - Gorey stretch of the line will never be any of those things. It doesn't meet the criteria now and the modern world is leaving it behind

vicwatson

Del.Monte wrote: »

There are plenty of full fare paying passengers. Businesses like Anton Treacy's hotel in Enniscorthy get plenty of people coming down on the train and they sure as hell aren't OAPs. 'Bus pass' users - if you mean OAPs - are entitled to FREE travel as they paid for it during their working years.

Oh go away with your "entitled" would ya;):)

And whats more is that all that money they "paid in" is gone, gone, gone, gone unfortunately, ask a German speculator where it is. We owe 60 BILLION EURO

JMT2016

Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »

Key factors would be flexibility, cost, speed, environmentally friendly & sustainable. The Wexford - Gorey stretch of the line will never be any of those things.

Spot on. It's a pity but at the end of the day you need high density population centres to make railway sustainable. Most of Ireland doesn't fit the bill and never will.

Del.Monte

JMT2016 wrote: »

Spot on. It's a pity but at the end of the day you need high density population centres to make railway sustainable. Most of Ireland doesn't fit the bill and never will.

What's your agenda? You seem to be posting the same anti-rail stuff on numerous different threads.

JMT2016

Del.Monte wrote: »

What's your agenda? You seem to be posting the same anti-rail stuff on numerous different threads.

Not anti-rail, and certainly not anti-public transport.

I'm interested because of articles like this -
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/stormy-times-ahead-seven-issues-down-the-track-for-irish-rail-35228156.html

For those of us living outside of Dublin we need proper infrastructure, emergency hospital care etc... and it's not happening!

Having an ailing train service running through Wexford which is being wound down on the quiet serves no-one!

Edups

JMT2016 wrote: »

Having an ailing train service running through Wexford which is being wound down on the quiet serves no-one!

Fúcking serves me when the bus can't be on time to Enniscorthy.

JMT2016

Edups wrote: »

Fúcking serves me when the bus can't be on time to Enniscorthy.

I count 19 bus eireann buses each way between wexford and enniscorthy per day and 4 trains @ 6:00, 7:45, 13:20, 18:20.

If I want to travel to Clonmel by train I have a choice of 07:20 and 16:25. This is a non-service and this is where the wexford train service is going too by the looks of things.

I think the effort being put into preserving train non-services should be converted into a push for proper roads, then maybe the enniscorthy bus would be on time....

Edups

JMT2016 wrote: »

I count 19 bus eireann buses each way between wexford and enniscorthy per day and 4 trains @ 6:00, 7:45, 13:20, 18:20.

If I want to travel to Clonmel by train I have a choice of 07:20 and 16:25. This is a non-service and this is where the wexford train service is going too by the looks of things.

I think the effort being put into preserving train non-services should be converted into a push for proper roads, then maybe the enniscorthy bus would be on time....

I like the train. Buses are cramped, they have no toilets and they don't serve food. And the ban food on the bus. If I'm travelling to dublin on the bus which takes a good 2.5 hours I better not need to go to the bathroom or get thirsty, no sir. The train is not an outdated mode of transport.

man98

As a regular bus and train user, I laugh at the implication that a bus is even somewhat of an adequate replacement for the train. I'm around 1.8 metres tall and I struggle to fit into most intercity bus seats, let alone take my laptop out - the train is considerably more comfortable. I pay €22 RTN from Wexford to Connolly - quite a reasonable price. If Iarnród Éireann were to remove the 29000 Class "Headache Machine" from the route and maybe looked at a slight re-timetabling then they would be on to a winner. The killer for the line is the DART which edges along - that issue can be partially fixed with some level of investment however. Cutting out the stops at Bray; Dun Laoghaire and Tara Street should also be looked at.

Marhay70

man98 wrote: »

As a regular bus and train user, I laugh at the implication that a bus is even somewhat of an adequate replacement for the train. I'm around 1.8 metres tall and I struggle to fit into most intercity bus seats, let alone take my laptop out - the train is considerably more comfortable. I pay €22 RTN from Wexford to Connolly - quite a reasonable price. If Iarnród Éireann were to remove the 29000 Class "Headache Machine" from the route and maybe looked at a slight re-timetabling then they would be on to a winner. The killer for the line is the DART which edges along - that issue can be partially fixed with some level of investment however. Cutting out the stops at Bray; Dun Laoghaire and Tara Street should also be looked at.

I don't think anybody is trying to say the bus is a better option than the train but the facts speak for themselves. The Dublin-Wexford bus route currently supports two major operators and full distance bus passengers outnumber train passengers by several multiples, in fact to remove the stops at Bray, Dun Laoghaire and Tara St would only serve to deplete passenger numbers to unsustainable levels. Trains on the line only approach capacity when they reach the outer suburban area of Dublin.
I can't see Irish Rail or the current government investing any money in infrastructure for the Wexford line, all we can hope for is that they will listen to the people and produce a more user friendly service.

Del.Monte

man98 wrote: »

As a regular bus and train user, I laugh at the implication that a bus is even somewhat of an adequate replacement for the train. I'm around 1.8 metres tall and I struggle to fit into most intercity bus seats, let alone take my laptop out - the train is considerably more comfortable. I pay €22 RTN from Wexford to Connolly - quite a reasonable price. If Iarnród Éireann were to remove the 29000 Class "Headache Machine" from the route and maybe looked at a slight re-timetabling then they would be on to a winner. The killer for the line is the DART which edges along - that issue can be partially fixed with some level of investment however. Cutting out the stops at Bray; Dun Laoghaire and Tara Street should also be looked at.

Don't agree on Bray and Dun Laoghaire being dropped but certainly Tara Street as it would reduce the discomfort caused by commuters piling in on top of everybody. If the Rosslare trains reverted to starting from Platform 1 (?) in Connolly as they used to back in the late 1970s it would also reduce the number of commuters using the service and perphaps Rosslare line passengers would be able to share the Enterprise waiting room. Never happen though as it would require innovative thinking - ie something not in CIE's toolbox.

man98

Marhay70 wrote: »

I don't think anybody is trying to say the bus is a better option than the train but the facts speak for themselves. The Dublin-Wexford bus route currently supports two major operators and full distance bus passengers outnumber train passengers by several multiples, in fact to remove the stops at Bray, Dun Laoghaire and Tara St would only serve to deplete passenger numbers to unsustainable levels. Trains on the line only approach capacity when they reach the outer suburban area of Dublin.
I can't see Irish Rail or the current government investing any money in infrastructure for the Wexford line, all we can hope for is that they will listen to the people and produce a more user friendly service.

Cutting those stops would put commuters back on to the Dart. Greystones makes for a good place to connect on to the Dart services and it could cut 5 minutes off journey times. Arguably stopping the service in all Dublin suburbs would increase ridership but it's just unfeasible - which is what I believe many of these stops are.

the kelt

All thats needed is a little bit of thought.

First off the timetable is out of sync with what people need, ferries etc.

Secondly im not sure if theres a disused train line between Arklow and Wicklow, the fact is the diversion of the northern bound train line into Rathdrum adds significant time to the train journey. I dont know the answer to be honest but if there was an opportunity to run straight along the coast from Arklow to Wicklow rather than the current diversion it would cut significant time and surely a connector commuter train from Rathdrum to Arklow/Wicklow could be used if required. Again ive no idea if thats feasible but it always struck me the amount of time used diverting to rathdrum added to the journey.

Again why does the commuter train need to stop at the likes of Greystones and Bray, these are already connected by the Dart? It should be a city centre service and nothing else. Ive seen it first hand in London where trains were city centre trains, no suburb stops, got you the city centre in good time and make your way from there.

The issue with the train at the moment is 3 things:

1.Speed
2.Timetable
3.Cost

Im convinced if it was a quicker service with a better timetable it would be used more. Surely it would be worth trying rather than shutting down the service.

But then again that means putting Iarnroad Eireann and a bit of thought into the same sentence.

vicwatson

I agree, first stop should be pearse station in town, not greystones already served

Del.Monte

Agree with the need for innovation but talk of building a new direct line between Arklow and Wicklow is nonsense and there is no disused line. What is there is all that can be used/developed and that's where imagination is required.

The existing route is probably the most scenic on the Irish raiway system but nothing is made of it. Alongside the speeding up of trains there should be station reopenings at Avoca, Woodenbridge and Ferns. Nothing expensive just bare platforms and bus shelters to start with - even make them request stops if needs be. This was always the reasoning behind the development of railcars - cheaper to operate and flexible - both things which CIE choose to ignore. How many visitors do CIE/IE bring to Ballykissangel?

McLoughlin

The amount of Irish railways and stations that has being closed down in the past 100 years is what around 50 % ?

irish government never really invested in the railways outside Dublin area and the decline will probably continue

Marhay70

the kelt wrote: »

All thats needed is a little bit of thought.

First off the timetable is out of sync with what people need, ferries etc.

Secondly im not sure if theres a disused train line between Arklow and Wicklow, the fact is the diversion of the northern bound train line into Rathdrum adds significant time to the train journey. I dont know the answer to be honest but if there was an opportunity to run straight along the coast from Arklow to Wicklow rather than the current diversion it would cut significant time and surely a connector commuter train from Rathdrum to Arklow/Wicklow could be used if required. Again ive no idea if thats feasible but it always struck me the amount of time used diverting to rathdrum added to the journey.

Again why does the commuter train need to stop at the likes of Greystones and Bray, these are already connected by the Dart? It should be a city centre service and nothing else. Ive seen it first hand in London where trains were city centre trains, no suburb stops, got you the city centre in good time and make your way from there.

The issue with the train at the moment is 3 things:

1.Speed
2.Timetable
3.Cost

Im convinced if it was a quicker service with a better timetable it would be used more. Surely it would be worth trying rather than shutting down the service.

But then again that means putting Iarnroad Eireann and a bit of thought into the same sentence.

Irish rail will argue that it's all about bums on seats and my experience is that quite a substantial number of passengers board and alight at Bray and Dun Laoghaire in particular, these would be passengers travelling to or from points south of Greystones. It would make sense, if the intention was to retain a through service to Dublin, to maintain these stops. I also agree that stations at Ferns, Avoca and Glenealy could be reopened as halts, there has been quite a lot of development in and around these areas and, for Avoca and Glenealy, there is virtually no public transport service which is ridiculous when a train is running through their town. I think there was a review of the situation in the mid 2000s but the crash put an end to that. As for meeting the ferries at Rosslare, Irish Rail have stated that altering the schedule during the summer months has not led to any significant increase in foot passengers. This, of course may be a case of a self fulfilling prophecy coming to pass as people have got used to the idea of there not being a train to meet the ferry and so have tailored their journey to suit that.
Railcars are not unknown on Irish railways, I remember well, in my youth, the old GNR railway ran a railcar between Connolly and Howth. A railcar for the distance between Greystones and Rosslare might not be the most comfortable method of transport but certainly a two car set of the current or even the previous train model would be suitable. The train runs via Rathdrum because it was a major source of goods traffic at the time the railway was built, some also say that C.S. Parnell had an input in ensuring the train delivered him to his home but how true this is I don't know.
Really the main problem with speed on the line is the need to fit into the DART schedule, I don't see any way to relieve this and it will only get worse if and when Irish Rail manage to increase frequency on the DART. The only real solution is to increase the carrying capacity of the line by increasing the number of tracks out of Connolly and this is not feasible or cost beneficial, just to suit the Dublin-Wexford line.

purplepanda

Seems to me that more travel options are needed to increase rail passenger numbers. The buses are proof that there is a potential market & they have their own problems with timing delays.

Whilst there probably isn't the extra slots in between DART services to allow more direct services to Dublin from Wexford stations, there should at least be able to consider running more daily return services to Greystones or even Bray to connect to central Dublin via the DART.

Start with one or two extra return off peak services connected to met the DART at Greystones / Bray. Even at weekends or summer months.

More journey options could attract passengers who wish to travel onward to the Greater Dublin region & beyond who can't currently use the line outside the current available connections south of Greystones.