Why do parents accept education for their kids "as is"?

Zynks

I am legally required to place my daughter under the unsupervised supervision of strangers in a place for almost six hours per day. For generations this has been done with blind trust and to a large extent it still is. There are horror stories from the past about breaches of this trust, but somehow this doesn’t stop us from continuing to do it with almost complete faith in the system - or is it just that we feel powerless?

This system is funded by taxpaying citizens of this country, but there is a twist: this system is mainly controlled by a certain religious faith, which was the origin of almost all horror stories of abuses against children in the past, but somehow they are still trusted by us and the state as to know what’s best for our children and their education.

Today, when picking my 8 y.o. daughter up from school I heard the whole class saying something. I asked her what it was, she explained they were praying as they do everyday. I asked if they did it any more times as she confirmed that they pray at the start of the day, once before each break and once before leaving school, everyday, four times.

I was livid. Why is this still happening? Do people really think this is OK?

Sure, you may argue that I “put my child in a catholic school, what do I expect?”. True, I expected some unwanted indoctrination, which I am happy to ridicule when my kids arrive home, but seriously, how many religious adults pray four times before 9 am and 2.30 pm? So why is it OK to force five year olds to do it?

Are children not entitled to freedom of religion? How about freedom from religion? We really are just turning a blind eye to what’s happening. We have a government refusing to take responsibility by relying on a heavily tarnished organisation that is just doing the best they can to brainwash our kids into their faith.

Yeah, I can see it coming “we all went through that system and we survived”. Seriously, what happened to you was wrong. What’s happening to our kids is wrong, and by turning a blind eye, we are complicit with this big lie.

I want the state to take full responsibility for primary and secondary education removing all religions from the classroom.

Can someone help me understand why doesn’t the majority of people want this separation?

D0NNELLY

My kids even at 3 know it's just another nice story.. along with the other nice stories.. nothing to get worked up over.

otwb1

Zynks wrote:

I am legally required to place my daughter under the unsupervised supervision of strangers in a place for almost six hours per day.

As far as I know you're not actually legally obliged to have your child educated in a school. Have you looked at home schooling options?

If you want your child educated in a nondenominational school then you could get involved with Educate Together to see if there is demand in your area.

Zynks

otwb1 wrote: »

As far as I know you're not actually legally obliged to have your child educated in a school. Have you looked at home schooling options?

But I do want my child to go to a school.

otwb1 wrote: »

If you want your child educated in a nondenominational school then you could get involved with Educate Together to see if there is demand in your area.

There is one not too far, we have been in waiting list for a while.

I had predicted the implied "you have alternatives, take it or leave it", even if it is not your intention. But that is more of a distraction from the real issue: are the majority of parents really OK with this going on in 90% of tax funded schools or are they just being lazy and conformists?

Zynks

D0NNELLY wrote: »

.. nothing to get worked up over.

That is where the problem lies. At what stage does it become something to be worked over? Is it that it really doesn't matter, or that we are taking the easy way out and prefer not to "rock the boat"?

D0NNELLY

Zynks wrote: »

But But that is more of a distraction from the real issue: are the majority of parents really OK with this going on in 90% of tax funded schools or are they just being lazy and conformists?

Talk to your kids.. don't just leave it to the schools.

D0NNELLY

Zynks wrote: »

That is where the problem lies. At what stage does it become something to be worked over? Is it that it really doesn't matter, or that we are taking the easy way out and prefer not to "rock the boat"?

Nothing easy about parents educating the kids on all aspects of the world they live in. My kids go to a catholic school. They know the religious part is nonsense. But we have a crib at Christmas. They know Buddhism is nonsense, but we have a little buddah in the sun room. They know Islam is nonsense, but they respect that others take it seriously..

Zynks

D0NNELLY wrote: »

Talk to your kids.. don't just leave it to the schools.

Of course, I do. But I want to be able to tell my kids that I tried to stop the attempts of indoctrination and get them to do more sport or philosophy.

It just isn't OK to expose kids to forced religion (I wasn't allowed to reply "the child hasn't decided yet" to the registration's question "child's religion") and have it funded with tax money, is it?

Zynks

D0NNELLY wrote: »

Nothing easy about parents educating the kids on all aspects of the world they live in. My kids go to a catholic school. They know the religious part is nonsense. But we have a crib at Christmas. They know Buddhism is nonsense, but we have a little buddah in the sun room. They know Islam is nonsense, but they respect that others take it seriously..

...and for that reason we leave things as they are in schools?

kippy

Zynks wrote: »

I am legally required to place my daughter under the unsupervised supervision of strangers in a place for almost six hours per day. For generations this has been done with blind trust and to a large extent it still is. There are horror stories from the past about breaches of this trust, but somehow this doesn’t stop us from continuing to do it with almost complete faith in the system - or is it just that we feel powerless?

This system is funded by taxpaying citizens of this country, but there is a twist: this system is mainly controlled by a certain religious faith, which was the origin of almost all horror stories of abuses against children in the past, but somehow they are still trusted by us and the state as to know what’s best for our children and their education.

Today, when picking my 8 y.o. daughter up from school I heard the whole class saying something. I asked her what it was, she explained they were praying as they do everyday. I asked if they did it any more times as she confirmed that they pray at the start of the day, once before each break and once before leaving school, everyday, four times.

I was livid. Why is this still happening? Do people really think this is OK?

Sure, you may argue that I “put my child in a catholic school, what do I expect?”. True, I expected some unwanted indoctrination, which I am happy to ridicule when my kids arrive home, but seriously, how many religious adults pray four times before 9 am and 2.30 pm? So why is it OK to force five year olds to do it?

Are children not entitled to freedom of religion? How about freedom from religion? We really are just turning a blind eye to what’s happening. We have a government refusing to take responsibility by relying on a heavily tarnished organisation that is just doing the best they can to brainwash our kids into their faith.

Yeah, I can see it coming “we all went through that system and we survived”. Seriously, what happened to you was wrong. What’s happening to our kids is wrong, and by turning a blind eye, we are complicit with this big lie.

I want the state to take full responsibility for primary and secondary education removing all religions from the classroom.

Can someone help me understand why doesn’t the majority of people want this separation?

Probably because the majority of the people are happy with the system the way it is.
Why would depend on the person.
For me, I am okay with sending my kids to a "standard" school. Sure they get taught religion - so did I - but the reality is, its' generally a very small part of the curriculum and in general people are happy with the way their kids are taught.
If kids are easily brainwashed into faith, none of us here would have the opinions we currently have (as an aside)

otwb1

Zynks wrote:

I had predicted the implied "you have alternatives, take it or leave it", even if it is not your intention. But that is more of a distraction from the real issue: are the majority of parents really OK with this going on in 90% of tax funded schools or are they just being lazy and conformists?

I suspect that the majority of parents who have an issue with religion being taught in school try to register their children in the new community schools or in educate together schools.

The more people who register an interest which allows organisations to prove demand in an area the more schools will be established without religious connections.

On your own issue- Have you raised your problem with the school? I'd be surprised if they don't allow you to opt out of religious classes.

Zynks

kippy wrote: »

Probably because the majority of the people are happy with the system the way it is.
Why would depend on the person.
For me, I am okay with sending my kids to a "standard" school. Sure they get taught religion - so did I - but the reality is, its' generally a very small part of the curriculum and in general people are happy with the way their kids are taught.

It is 30 minutes plus the four prayers (in my daughters case) everyday. They do far less PE than that. Not that small in my view, though the issue is not the time, but what is done with that time. I agree with religion as a sociological and history subject, not as a time for indoctrination.

Isn't accepting it as a "hidden" thing in a generally OK curriculum just a poor excuse? Lets put it another way: if there was no religion classes and the multiple compulsory prayers, would you ask them to be added to the daily routine?

PolaroidPizza

Any parents I know would much rather their kids learnt maths instead of preparation for communion/confession/ confirmation.

kippy wrote: »

Probably because the majority of the people are happy with the system the way it is.
Why would depend on the person.
For me, I am okay with sending my kids to a "standard" school. Sure they get taught religion - so did I - but the reality is, its' generally a very small part of the curriculum and in general people are happy with the way their kids are taught.
If kids are easily brainwashed into faith, none of us here would have the opinions we currently have (as an aside)

vicwatson

kippy wrote: »

Probably because the majority of the people are happy with the system the way it is.

I disagree with this statement. Not sure they've ever been asked for starters.

kippy

vicwatson wrote: »

I disagree with this statement. Not sure they've ever been asked for starters.

Surely if there were enough people with issues, there would be a demand for wholescale change.....

kippy

PolaroidPizza wrote: »

Any parents I know would much rather their kids learnt maths instead of preparation for communion/confession/ confirmation.

I don't disagree, but again, I dont see any evidence that they feel strongly enough about it, to start to effect change.

kippy

Zynks wrote: »

It is 30 minutes plus the four prayers (in my daughters case) everyday. They do far less PE than that. Not that small in my view, though the issue is not the time, but what is done with that time. I agree with religion as a sociological and history subject, not as a time for indoctrination.

Isn't accepting it as a "hidden" thing in a generally OK curriculum just a poor excuse? Lets put it another way: if there was no religion classes and the multiple compulsory prayers, would you ask them to be added to the daily routine?

I wouldn't. But that's not the reality we live in. I'd have the same thoughts on Irish and History but I just get on with it. If I felt strongly enough about any of it, I might try do something about it, but there are only so many hours in the day.

The_Valeyard

Yawn OP.


Any parent I chat to is all about changing the system, but just not their school.

Happy for my child to have that education along with a broad curriculum.

Zynks

otwb1 wrote: »

I suspect that the majority of parents who have an issue with religion being taught in school try to register their children in the new community schools or in educate together schools.

The more people who register an interest which allows organisations to prove demand in an area the more schools will be established without religious connections.

On your own issue- Have you raised your problem with the school? I'd be surprised if they don't allow you to opt out of religious classes.

Opt out? It is a joke, kid stays in the classroom listening to the whole thing. Why not opt-in? Why not as an after school optional subject paid by parents?

I agree, we need to document interest for change somehow, if it does exist at all - I am not sure it does. That's why I am asking these questions.

kippy

Zynks wrote: »

Opt out? It is a joke, kid stays in the classroom listening to the whole thing. Why not opt-in? Why not as an after school optional subject paid by parents?

I agree, we need to document interest for change somehow, if it does exist at all - I am not sure it does. That's why I am asking these questions.

Again, thats the deal with the type of school - unfortunately there are not enough Educate Together etc schools in areas to satisfy the alleged demand however if people really did feel strongly enough about it they COULD move their kids although I appreciate that is not always practical.
Start here I would suggest. (register interest etc)
https://www.educatetogether.ie/

Zynks

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Yawn OP.


Any parent I chat to is all about changing the system, but just not their school.

Happy for my child to have that education along with a broad curriculum.

So every parent you 'chat to' is a hypocrite? OK, fine, but unless you are suggesting every other parent also is, your point doesn't add much to the discussion.

I take note though of your preference for keeping things as they are, thanks.

vicwatson

kippy wrote: »

Surely if there were enough people with issues, there would be a demand for wholescale change.....

The government wont even change the damn census form in relation to the question on religion, so we are decades away from any sort of politically led change, they don't want to believe

Zynks

@Kippy, again, I have my kids in waiting lists at the local ET school.

The Muppet

Zynks wrote: »

But I do want my child to go to a school.



There is one not too far, we have been in waiting list for a while.

I had predicted the implied "you have alternatives, take it or leave it", even if it is not your intention. But that is more of a distraction from the real issue: are the majority of parents really OK with this going on in 90% of tax funded schools or are they just being lazy and conformists?

The majority of parents were educated in the same way and were not let down by the system and are happy enough for their children to do likewise.

endacl

Zynks wrote: »

That is where the problem lies. At what stage does it become something to be worked over? Is it that it really doesn't matter, or that we are taking the easy way out and prefer not to "rock the boat"?

We've all been through that system. Most of us are, by and large, grand.

vicwatson

kippy wrote: »

Again, thats the deal with the type of school - unfortunately there are not enough Educate Together non denominational etc schools in areas to satisfy the alleged demand however if people really did feel strongly enough about it they COULD move their kids although I appreciate that is not always practical.
Start here I would suggest. (register interest etc)
https://www.educatetogether.ie/

FYP:)

kippy

PolaroidPizza wrote: »

Any parents I know would much rather their kids learnt maths instead of preparation for communion/confession/ confirmation.

Kids learn maths also - more time spent at maths does not equal kids who are better at maths either - but that is an entirely different argument.

You can look at the ceremonies themselves as religious hockus pockus or you can look at them as an opportunity for your kids to gain some confidence, social skills, public speaking etc etc.
If its all hocus pocus to you - whats the difference?

kippy

vicwatson wrote: »

The government wont even change the damn census form in relation to the question on religion, so we are decades away from any sort of politically led change, they don't want to believe

And again, that's down to not enough ordinary joe soaps voicing their opinions to their elected reps.

kippy

vicwatson wrote: »

FYP:)

Thanks for the correction.

Zynks

vicwatson wrote: »

The government wont even change the damn census form in relation to the question on religion, so we are decades away from any sort of politically led change, they don't want to believe

If you look at the pressure and lobbying from religious groups over the government and press during discussions about marriage equality and reproductive rights, you can only imagine what goes on in the background about education reform. I think change will have to start from parents.

kippy

Zynks wrote: »

@Kippy, again, I have my kids in waiting lists at the local ET school.

Then, theres' not much more within your power that you can do.

kippy

Zynks wrote: »

If you look at the pressure and lobbying from religious groups over the government and press during discussions about marriage equality and reproductive rights, you can only imagine what goes on in the background about education reform. I think change will have to start from parents.

That's what I've been saying - however not enough parents care strongly enough about it, for multiple reasons, to kick that off in any meaningful way.

The_Valeyard

Zynks wrote: »

If you look at the pressure and lobbying from religious groups over the government and press during discussions about marriage equality and reproductive rights, you can only imagine what goes on in the background about education reform. I think change will have to start from parents.

Same lobbying happen by atheist and humanist groups.

eviltwin

Most parents aren't bothered OP. They are happy for their child to have their day doing the FHC fashion show and piss up without having to do any of the donkey work themselves. All you can do this is join the ET community and lobby for a school in your area.

vicwatson

kippy wrote: »

And again, that's down to not enough ordinary joe soaps voicing their opinions to their elected reps.

There was a sizeable amount of lobbying done for last census on this matter yet gov turned on their heels.

The governments we have had are not in the mood to change/force change, the RC church still very much in the driving seat.

We still have the angelus FFS

We still also have situation whereas brand new schools are being built, paid for by the taxpayer yet the government are NOT insisting these new schools become non denominational, instead where new schools/extensions are being built and paid for by the taxpayer the existing church board of management get to effectively keep this property, though not having paid a cent towards it. It's a joke (alongside their charitable status).

That said though, Irish Governments since the inception of the state have happily let the RC church take control of education as they all washed their hands of it. Ultimately the Irish people are to blame for letting all this happen.

Zynks

The Muppet wrote: »

The majority of parents were educated in the same way and were not let down by the system and are happy enough for their children to do likewise.

endacl wrote: »

We've all been through that system. Most of us are, by and large, grand.

I thought I had pre-empted the 'been there and I survived' argument at the start. That is not responsible parenting in my opinion. I survived a parent smoking in the house, I know many people who survived beatings by parents or teachers. So what?!?

Anyway, if there is space for improvement (assuming one agrees), why use the past as justification for the present and future way of educating our children?

kippy

vicwatson wrote: »

There was a sizeable amount of lobbying done for last census on this matter yet gov turned on their heels.

The governments we have had are not in the mood to change/force change, the RC church still very much in the driving seat.

We still have the angelus FFS

We still also have situation whereas brand new schools are being built, paid for by the taxpayer yet the government are NOT insisting these new schools become non denominational, instead where new schools/extensions are being built and paid for by the taxpayer the existing church board of management get to effectively keep this property, though not having paid a cent towards it. It's a joke (alongside their charitable status).

That said though, Irish Governments since the inception of the state have happily let the RC church take control of education as they all washed their hands of it. Ultimately the Irish people are to blame for letting all this happen.

Exactly what I have been saying.

kippy

Zynks wrote: »

I thought I had pre-empted the 'been there and I survived' argument at the start. That is not responsible parenting in my opinion. I survived a parent smoking in the house, I know many people who survived beatings by parents or teachers. So what?!?

Anyway, if there is space for improvement (assuming one agrees), why use the past as justification for the present and future way of educating our children?

It's not exactly the same comparison you are making though - is it?

There's always space for improvement in every facet of life depending on your viewpoint.
Again, there don't seem to be enough people out there that view the religious side of education as a big enough issue to commit their time to resolving - which is unfortunate for you and those of a similar mindset - that may not always be the way though.

Zynks

eviltwin wrote: »

Most parents aren't bothered OP. They are happy for their child to have their day doing the FHC fashion show and piss up without having to do any of the donkey work themselves. All you can do this is join the ET community and lobby for a school in your area.

It scares me to think that you are right. Surely people care more about the education of their kids than water charges or the premier league, but somehow the evidence is not there.

kippy

Zynks wrote: »

It scares me to think that you are right. Surely people care more about the education of their kids than water charges or the premier league, but somehow the evidence is not there.

Of course people care about the education of their kids.
They just have a different viewpoint to that of your own.

mdwexford

4 times would be obviously excessive but I don't believe you about that.

The_Valeyard

Zynks wrote: »

It scares me to think that you are right. Surely people care more about the education of their kids than water charges or the premier league, but somehow the evidence is not there.

Of course they do! Very wrong to think they do not, Just because they do not seem to want change to the primary system. Maybe your vision is too blinkered. Perhaps people are happy the education system.

eviltwin

Religion in school didn't do harm to most people but I don't think that's the point. It's a large chunk of time that could be better spent on learning something useful such as a language or on something for personal development such as music, sport etc. I had one in a Catholic school and between masses, fhc preparation, religious study etc a lot of time was lost that could have been put to better use. The real scandal is not what children are forced to learn but what they miss out on as a result.

Zynks

kippy wrote: »

...there don't seem to be enough people out there that view the religious side of education as a big enough issue to commit their time to resolving...

That is what I am trying to find out. Is it really that people don't care enough as you suggest, or that they are 'shushed', made feel bad, the issue trivialised by covert opponents or even that it feels like mission impossible?

The Muppet

Zynks wrote: »

I thought I had pre-empted the 'been there and I survived' argument at the start. That is not responsible parenting in my opinion. I survived a parent smoking in the house, I know many people who survived beatings by parents or teachers. So what?!?

Anyway, if there is space for improvement (assuming one agrees), why use the past as justification for the present and future way of educating our children?

You are entitled to your opinion once you don't try force it on people who dont share that opinion.

There is choice now so there is no need to force change , most people are happy enough with Catholic schooling for their children those that are not send them elsewhere.

kippy

Zynks wrote: »

That is what I am trying to find out. Is it really that people don't care enough as you suggest, or that they are 'shushed', made feel bad, the issue trivialised by covert opponents or even that it feels like mission impossible?

There are plenty of reasons, already noted in this thread, why people aren't of the same viewpoint as yourself. If you chose to ignore them because they don't line up with your way of thinking, this thread is pointless and the questions posed in the initial post are purely rhetorical.

The_Valeyard

Zynks wrote: »

That is what I am trying to find out. Is it really that people don't care enough as you suggest, or that they are 'shushed', made feel bad, the issue trivialised by covert opponents or even that it feels like mission impossible?

Probably the opposite actually. A very vocal organised atheist group with media support tend to shout down those who disagree.

Actually you will find people who agree with you on the A&A forums, they have a thread dedicated to this.

kippy

eviltwin wrote: »

Religion in school didn't do harm to most people but I don't think that's the point. It's a large chunk of time that could be better spent on learning something useful such as a language or on something for personal development such as music, sport etc. I had one in a Catholic school and between masses, fhc preparation, religious study etc a lot of time was lost that could have been put to better use. The real scandal is not what children are forced to learn but what they miss out on as a result.

I don't disagree with what you are saying but there are other subjects, that I personally, see no or little value in, but others would see plenty value in - differing viewpoints.

Zynks

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Of course they do! Very wrong to think they do not, Sony because they do not seem to want change to the primary system. Maybe your vision is too blinkered. Perhaps people are happy the education system.

I am questioning the imposition of religion in education, not the entire education system.

Not sure if this applies to all public schools, but my kids only get maths, reading and writing homework. Why is religion hidden from parents at home? Is it so we don't question it? Why is it that none of the parents I met this afternoon after talking to my daughter could tell me whether they prayed everyday in the classroom or how many times? It suits them to keep it out of sight of the 'responsible' adults, I think it suits lazy parents to pretend it is not an issue and just let it be.

eviltwin

kippy wrote: »

I don't disagree with what you are saying but there are other subjects, that I personally, see no or little value in, but others would see plenty value in - differing viewpoints.

I don't necessarily think religion is a useless subject, in fact I think it's important to learn about other faith and cultures but faith formation and all that goes with it is a waste of time and resources and that kind of thing should be best left to parents and places of worship.

vicwatson

The Muppet wrote: »

There is choice now so there is no need to force change , most people are happy enough with Catholic schooling for their children those that are not send them elsewhere.

Drivvle, because, by far, for the majority there is NOT a choice