Rail review and consultation launched

schemingbohemia

Del.Monte wrote: »

And why do you think numbers are so low instead of just parroting the official CIE/Government mantra.

Oh dear.

The numbers are so low because rail works best when transporting significant numbers from one place to another. The population on the Ballybrophy line does not lend itself to that.
Trains need to have timetables, a time that suits one person gets another into work too early or too late, the population isn't there to suit a service every 15 minutes and the congestion between the population centres isn't enough to entice people away from their cars.
So train can't, without massive increase in funding, provide a turn up and go service (10 minute frequency) or beat journey time, without that it just cannot work.
Can you suggest how this service could be made work to attract many more passengers without increasing the subsidy?

eastwest

n97 mini wrote: »

Wexford and Galway have the highest proportion of one-offs in Ireland. I know someone living in Wexford with 150m of road frontage who belly aches about the council not resurfacing "our road". I suggested he do it himself.

If you do it yourself the lawyers will pop out of the bushes with a long string of litigants with claims at the ready. In an ideal world we'd all fix stuff like that, but you wouldn't be thanked if you had to stand in front of a judge while some lad explained how tripping over a stone had ruined his life and that only money would fix it.

n97 mini

eastwest wrote: »

If you do it yourself the lawyers will pop out of the bushes with a long string of litigants with claims at the ready. In an ideal world we'd all fix stuff like that, but you wouldn't be thanked if you had to stand in front of a judge while some lad explained how tripping over a stone had ruined his life and that only money would fix it.

Tounge was firmly in cheek.

marno21

It just shows how ****ed the planning is when the media discussion about fixing Dublin's transport issues is double decking the M50 and widening the M1, N3, M4, M7 and N11 and the solution to transport problems in the west is to reopen Athenry-Collooney.

Dual the N17 and build DART Underground = benefits

Widen the approach roads to Dublin and open the WRC = colossal waste of money for the "benefits" obtained.

eastwest

marno21 wrote: »

It just shows how ****ed the planning is when the media discussion about fixing Dublin's transport issues is double decking the M50 and widening the M1, N3, M4, M7 and N11 and the solution to transport problems in the west is to reopen Athenry-Collooney.

Dual the N17 and build DART Underground = benefits

Widen the approach roads to Dublin and open the WRC = colossal waste of money for the "benefits" obtained.

Who said anything about benefits?
It's all about getting re-elected. 'Benefits' are the things we pay to people who can't get a job locally because the roads are 5hite in the north west.

Del.Monte

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Oh dear.

The numbers are so low because rail works best when transporting significant numbers from one place to another. The population on the Ballybrophy line does not lend itself to that.
Trains need to have timetables, a time that suits one person gets another into work too early or too late, the population isn't there to suit a service every 15 minutes and the congestion between the population centres isn't enough to entice people away from their cars.
So train can't, without massive increase in funding, provide a turn up and go service (10 minute frequency) or beat journey time, without that it just cannot work.
Can you suggest how this service could be made work to attract many more passengers without increasing the subsidy?

Now you're trotting out the perceived railways mantra according to Sean Barret/Colm McCarth and the lazy media.

1960

Weekdays - 3 through trains to Kingsbridge/Heuston each way taking 3hrs 15mins – (1hr 35mins for the branch).

1977

Weekdays – 2 Trains each way taking 1hr 25mins
Sundays – 2 Trains each way.
First departure to Limerick from Ballybrophy was at 11.45am arriving into Limerick 1.10pm!

2004

Weekdays - 2 Trains each way taking 1hr 45mins
First train from Ballybrophy at 9.45am arriving Limerick 11.31am. Only available return journey 3.00pm ex.Limerick.
Sundays – 1 train each way

2016

Weekdays – 2 Trains each way taking 2 hours.
Plus 1 additional morning service from Nenagh to Limerick which arrives in Limerick at 8.45am and has no return working ie. commuters must return on the 16.55 service ex.Limerick.
Sundays – 1 train each way.

So looking back over the decades it’s not obvious who the service was aimed at, certainly not workers or people with business in Limerick. Possibly at those wishing to emigrate via Dun Laoghaire or the North Wall and for returning emigrants at holiday times? The present service is next to useless and bears a striking similarity to the useless service provided on the South Wexford line.

Possible improvements that could be made if the will was there.

1. North facing direct curve at Ballybrophy allowing through running between Dublin/Limerick.

2. Complete the upgrading of track and increase line speed to reduce journey times.

3. Proper marketing with staff and others incentivised to bring in business.

4. Fastrack reintroduced. Obviously dependent on it being reintroduced network wide.

5. All-Ireland printed timetable so that people outside the immediate area can be informed of the line’s existence.

Oh, and most obviously of all, the designation of Nenagh and Roscrea as special growth hubs with grant aid to attract in business. This might even help reduce the ever increasing growth of Dublin to the detriment of its citizens and the country as a whole. Fat chance.

monument

marno21 wrote: »

Dual the N17

North of Tuam most people would settle for the standard of the under construction section between Ballindine and Miltown. Maybe some 2 + 1 sections along the route.

marno21 wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/prime-time-extras-30003379/10650322/

Prime Time piece on this. Some nonsense from Kelly. No one is coming to invest in North Tipp because of the railway line.

The same might have been said about Ballina a few years ago but Coca-Cola and the other companies using the line seem to value the railway now. Larger companies also use passenger services and there's more than Coca-Cola around the town, and, on a smaller scale, I know of international supplies who visited smaller companies in Ballina too, they would not have taken the bus.

I not defending the route as it is, but the state it is in is at least partly because of under-investment and one train in a single direction on a Sunday is madness.

marno21

monument wrote: »

North of Tuam most people would settle for the standard of the under construction section between Ballindine and Miltown. Maybe some 2 + 1 sections along the route.

Dualling it would be good for the future. If Milltown, Ballindine, Charlestown & Tobercurry are to be bypassed with expensive offline schemes it may as well be a 2+2 scheme.

Nermal

Del.Monte wrote: »

Possible improvements that could be made if the will was there.

When you say 'will', what you really mean is 'money', and the fact is that money spent in Dublin returns more benefit than money spent elsewhere, so that's where the limited amount we have should be spent.

Del.Monte

Nermal wrote: »

When you say 'will', what you really mean is 'money', and the fact is that money spent in Dublin returns more benefit than money spent elsewhere, so that's where the limited amount we have should be spent.

No, I mean the 'will' to plan long term rather than the next five years. The way Dublin is going/growing the outer ring road will end up being via Athlone.

Bray Head

Just reading this now. The Roland Berger report on passenger costs by route is really well done and is a model of transparency for when large amounts of public expenditure is involved.

Congratulations on whoever squeezed this information out. I suspect it was a hard battle.

It did not surprise me that the DART requires by far the cheapest per passenger subsidy, but what did surprise me was by how much.

Also great to have the details on the actual cost per passenger on some of the peripheral routes as well. It might wake local interest groups up a little to the relative costs of bus-based rural transport schemes by comparison.

eastwest

'By comparison?'
Unfortunately the only comparison that ever gets an airing in this debate is 'They have DART and LUAS in Dublin, and they run on rails, so we're entitled to the same.'
Figures don't come into it, I'm afraid.

Bray Head

eastwest wrote: »

'By comparison?'
Unfortunately the only comparison that ever gets an airing in this debate is 'They have DART and LUAS in Dublin, and they run on rails, so we're entitled to the same.'
Figures don't come into it, I'm afraid.

Well of course they could not come into it because there was no way of telling what routes actually cost what.

end of the road

Bray Head wrote: »

It might wake local interest groups up a little to the relative costs of bus-based rural transport schemes by comparison.

why would it. they would be wasting their time. where a bus replaces a rail service it is either less used then the rail service or not used at all.

marno21

end of the road wrote: »

why would it. they would be wasting their time. where a bus replaces a rail service it is either less used then the rail service or not used at all.

The rail service is beyond unsustainable. Either a much cheaper bus service is implemented or nothing. The Limerick-Ballybrophy service as is cannot go on with the subventions required. It doesn't matter how willing the locals are to use a bus service, the train service is not viable

Del.Monte

marno21 wrote: »

The rail service is beyond unsustainable. Either a much cheaper bus service is implemented or nothing. The Limerick-Ballybrophy service as is cannot go on with the subventions required. It doesn't matter how willing the locals are to use a bus service, the train service is not viable

Perhaps your attitude will change when the Mallow/Tralee section is targeted with closure - it was on the list a few years back and will be again.

end of the road

marno21 wrote: »

The rail service is beyond unsustainable. Either a much cheaper bus service is implemented or nothing. The Limerick-Ballybrophy service as is cannot go on with the subventions required. It doesn't matter how willing the locals are to use a bus service, the train service is not viable

guess it's nothing then. as the more expensive to the user bus service hasn't a chance of being used. they're are all ready existing bus services for those who do wish to use bus, which will offer those users a better service then something jumping and jolting along the exact route of the line on the so called roads. just like south wexford.

Del.Monte wrote: »

Perhaps your attitude will change when the Mallow/Tralee section is targeted with closure - it was on the list a few years back and will be again.

i doubt it tbh. you are correct the line will be up for closure again though. and no doubt people will believe whatever over inflated figure will be put out to justify it. ireland never learns, ireland will never learn.

Carawaystick

end of the road wrote: »

why would it. they would be wasting their time. where a bus replaces a rail service it is either less used then the rail service or not used at all.

When the enterprise is closes and a bus replaces it, it it less used?

How many people travel from Galway to Limerick by train?
How many by coach?
How many travel to Dublin by train?
How many by coach?


Before Irish rail allowed the viaduct across Broadmeadow fall into the sea, there was 1 33x bus per day, now there's 5 each way, and there's usually no room to board in Lusk

How many people get busses from Galway to Tuam? I presume its less than the last train?

:rolleyes:

what_traffic

Carawaystick wrote: »

How many people get busses from Galway to Tuam? I presume its less than the last train?

Decent bus service to Tuam from Galway
Checkout
http://www.burkesbus.com/times.php?timetableNG=7

marno21

Del.Monte wrote: »

Perhaps your attitude will change when the Mallow/Tralee section is targeted with closure - it was on the list a few years back and will be again.

Nonsense. Mallow-Tralee will not be closed, and you can quote me on that.

There is still no rail service connecting Swords, or the airport, and there is no proper city centre NETWORK, an isolated station serving most of the country and a highly overcapacity 2 track section in the heart of the city. Meanwhile we are highly subsidising 2 criminally underused lines, where a proper bus service would more than suffice.

end of the road

marno21 wrote: »

Nonsense. Mallow-Tralee will not be closed, and you can quote me on that.

not nonsense at all, it has been up for closure before and i have no doubt will be again, so i won't quote you on it. once ballybroaphy, lj waterford, rosslare, sligo are all gone, they're will only be 1 other before they start on the intercity lines, and it won't be ennis athenry. wouldn't surprise me if that out lasted the lot, because (well, just because)

marno21 wrote: »

There is still no rail service connecting Swords, or the airport, and there is no proper city centre NETWORK, an isolated station serving most of the country and a highly overcapacity 2 track section in the heart of the city.

and that needs to be dealt with, but the government do not wish to do anything about it. no amount of closures will change that. the government simply don't wish to put up the money. i no more like it then the next person but like i said before you get what you vote for. you can call for others to lose their services all you like but they're will still be no DU or line to swords, or a plan to deal with the capacity issues.

marno21 wrote: »

Meanwhile we are highly subsidising 2 criminally underused lines, where a proper bus service would more than suffice.

for who. certainly not for the rail users. for those who want bus services they're are plenty existing all ready.

marno21

Tralee and Sligo require less subvention than the Cork line. There's frequently packed trains on the Mallow-Tralee line, what would be the logic in shutting that down?

Are you just completely anti line shutting or can you not see how ludicrous it is that there are rail lines that require €550 per passenger per journey subvention? There's lines closed with decades that would be less waste than that.

Del.Monte

marno21 wrote: »

Tralee and Sligo require less subvention than the Cork line. There's frequently packed trains on the Mallow-Tralee line, what would be the logic in shutting that down?

Are you just completely anti line shutting or can you not see how ludicrous it is that there are rail lines that require €550 per passenger per journey subvention? There's lines closed with decades that would be less waste than that.

Are you denying that both Sligo and Tralee have been previously suggested for closure? Where do you think closures will stop? Every since CIE was established in 1945 it has been in a spiral of continuous retrenchment and look where the company is today.

end of the road

marno21 wrote: »

Tralee and Sligo require less subvention than the Cork line. There's frequently packed trains on the Mallow-Tralee line, what would be the logic in shutting that down?

that is the point. when it comes to the railway in this country they're is no logic in anything. it's what IE/CIE decide on the basis of "reasons"

marno21 wrote: »

Are you just completely anti line shutting or can you not see how ludicrous it is that there are rail lines that require €550 per passenger per journey subvention?

absolutely i am anti-line shutting in 2016. they're is no legitimate reason for it. the only reason for it is complete ////ing incompetents. like i said before, they're is no way in hell i believe they're are any lines requiring €550 per passenger per journey subvention.

Grandeeod

marno21 wrote: »

Tralee and Sligo require less subvention than the Cork line. There's frequently packed trains on the Mallow-Tralee line, what would be the logic in shutting that down?

Are you just completely anti line shutting or can you not see how ludicrous it is that there are rail lines that require €550 per passenger per journey subvention? There's lines closed with decades that would be less waste than that.

Marno, I'm not sure if you are new to the party, but we are now in the zone where 3 particular lines that have been pushed for closure since the 1970s are down to two. Waterford - Rosslare is gone. IE/CIE have been proactive in this as recently as 2002. Ballybrophy - Limerick may get the chop soon and then it will be Waterford - Limerick Junction. Once all 3 routes are closed, the death knell for other routes will sound as Tralee, Sligo, Westport/Ballina and Rosslare have been mentioned by CIE before.

Irish railway history is littered with closures to improve the financial situation. But since the first big raft of closures in 1963, the financial situation keeps on deterioating and once again we are back where it all started.

Del.Monte

I came across this buried in an RTE news bulletin this morning about the Volunteer Ireland awards. I'm in awe of organisations and individuals involved in doing good work for the community, but really is this what should be going on at Clonmel Railway station?

https://www.facebook.com/Clonmel-Soup-Kitchen-1732284763758327/