JC assessment task December

MrJones1973

I know JC dispute is not yet resolved but assuming it is ,can anybody explain what this is about ? I have a vague notion

I'm not ruling out possibility that this section might be abolished.
I'm talking about English

RealJohn

I would think, and I could be wrong on this, that it's probably too late for ASTI members to implement it at this stage since they'd all have to get the training and that seems unlikely to be doable to me. TUI members and non-union should already know (I believe) so I'm guessing you're not in that group.

In summary, either you should know or you probably don't have to worry about it this year, in my opinion.

I stand open to correction on all points. I'm not an english teacher.

MrJones1973

RealJohn wrote: »

I would think, and I could be wrong on this, that it's probably too late for ASTI members to implement it at this stage since they'd all have to get the training and that seems unlikely to be doable to me. TUI members and non-union should already know (I believe) so I'm guessing you're not in that group.

In summary, either you should know or you probably don't have to worry about it this year, in my opinion.

I stand open to correction on all points. I'm not an english teacher.

I think you are probably right but I would have liked more responses. I appreciate yours

Mardy Bum

Well the task itself doesn't require training. Students do 2 questions. One is a reflection on one of the student's collection of texts and the other asks students to write a piece. It takes place over two classes. There is plenty of info online about it. It is marked by the SEC. I'm not sure why the ASTI would be against it.

implausible

The assessment task (AT) must be carried out between the 5th and 9th of December. The booklet will be sent to schools before this.

The students will engage with "a short stimulus in written, audio, audio-visual or multi-modal format" and write a piece. They then will have to write a reflection on the experience of compiling the collection of texts. As far as I know, they will have their two pieces from the Collection of Texts (CBA2) in the exam with them to reflect on.

The booklet here explains a lot of it. There was also a resource booklet given out on the last inservice day. There is an example of an AT provided here.

We are due to have another inservice day in November to go over the AT and CBA2, but that hasn't materialised, not here anyway. As the Collection of Texts has to be completed by December 2nd, it's cutting it a bit tight.

RealJohn, I'd say it is too late for ASTI teachers to be ready for the AT. However, as we are all required to teach the curriculum, getting a Collection of Texts together shouldn't be difficult. The SEC are unlikely to make an exception for the 10% as this would set a precedent for making it optional. What I can see happening is if an agreement is hammered out, that the dates for CBA2 and the AT would be extended out until February or March. The JCT have the staff ready to go, it'd be a logistics job to get everyone through CPD, but it could be done.

feardeas

Would be an intense time frame. Mocks might have to go. Unholy mess, hope the deal on it is workable

implausible

feardeas wrote:

Would be an intense time frame. Mocks might have to go. Unholy mess, hope the deal on it is workable

The AT could be done instead of a mock, think it takes 2 hours. Seeing as the final exam is going to be very unpredictable, I don't know how much of a benefit a mock would be anyway.

MrJones1973

feardeas wrote: »

Would be an intense time frame. Mocks might have to go. Unholy mess, hope the deal on it is workable

I agree. Asti has left English teachers exposed. Given recent climbdown I can't see Asti members holding the line. We will be lumped with a **** load of work around mocks

MrJones1973

implausible wrote: »

The AT could be done instead of a mock, think it takes 2 hours. Seeing as the final exam is going to be very unpredictable, I don't know how much of a benefit a mock would be anyway.

I think you are missing point. Most Asti teachers have had little training. Thus it's the redrafting and assessment element that requires training.
Curriculum is more onerous than last curriculum and a mess
I have heard in non Asti schools teachers are meeting after school because principals can't arrange a meeting time
There needs to be a clear middle management structure for these assessments if they come in. Nothing to stop a teacher writing vast chunks of them or just doing his or her own thing and marking everybody as a pass even if they produce **** . Nothing

MrJones1973

I keep thinking run now from Asti. The members or leadership always give into some bull **** and here we go with JC

MrJones1973

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Well the task itself doesn't require training. Students do 2 questions. One is a reflection on one of the student's collection of texts and the other asks students to write a piece. It takes place over two classes. There is plenty of info online about it. It is marked by the SEC. I'm not sure why the ASTI would be against it.

Have your students done much redrafting? Much reflection? What is their socio demographic ?

MrJones1973

Bottom line is I haven't done a huge amount of redrafting work with students. They are weak. Getting through Shakespeare was tough enough ad they are mixed ability. Getting thtough two novels took time. So did oral. They have attendance problems and are hard to get decent work.
Have I failed them and myself?

siulach

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Bottom line is I haven't done a huge amount of redrafting work with students. They are weak. Getting through Shakespeare was tough enough ad they are mixed ability. Getting thtough two novels took time. So did oral. They have attendance problems and are hard to get decent work.
Have I failed them and myself?

Of course you haven't failed them. The fact that you are researching the syllabus on a Friday evening shows you're not letting your students down. They only need to pick two pieces to redraft, so even if you spent next 2 weeks on a couple of simple genres like letters, diaries,reports and reviews, you'd still have a further week (at least) to let them redraft their two best pieces. I haven't done much on redrafting either but to be honest, once you teach a genre, allow them to practice it, correct it and give feedback, well then its up to them to apply that feedback to a redraft. The students deserve more clarity but it isn't their teacher's fault if the powers that be haven't thought their reforms through properly.

implausible

Mrwhite1970 wrote:

I think you are missing point. Most Asti teachers have had little training. Thus it's the redrafting and assessment element that requires training. Curriculum is more onerous than last curriculum and a mess I have heard in non Asti schools teachers are meeting after school because principals can't arrange a meeting time There needs to be a clear middle management structure for these assessments if they come in. Nothing to stop a teacher writing vast chunks of them or just doing his or her own thing and marking everybody as a pass even if they produce **** . Nothing

I'm aware that ASTI teachers haven't had training and that stinks. However, drafting and redrafting are not new skills to an English teacher, though students might not be too used to taking feedback on board and rewriting their work.

This year's crowd are guinea pigs, as are we, so I'm concentrating on getting as many of the four decent pieces of writing from the work they've done. Realistically, some of mine will only produce two, but we only have to assess two.

In non ASTI schools, teachers have 14 hours of professional time (paid sub cover) to use this year, so why are they meeting outside of school time?

MrJones1973

I want to thank you all for your thoughtful comments. To answer question about why meetings being held outside school time I think it's because principals didn't have people to cover classes. It's one thing giving principals money it's another thing having staff available to supervise.You could have six or more third year teachers. Six classes to supervise on one day besides what normally happens.

My other main issue with the JC is there is nothing to stop a teacher ignoring these meetings and just giving the mark he or she decides? Teachers still effectively have no authority over other teachers and until you give them that ,this idea of us all working together will be theoretical at best in most schools .

judeboy101

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I want to thank you all for your thoughtful comments. To answer question about why meetings being held outside school time I think it's because principals didn't have people to cover classes. It's one thing giving principals money it's another thing having staff available to supervise.You could have six or more third year teachers. Six classes to supervise on one day besides what normally happens.

My other main issue with the JC is there is nothing to stop a teacher ignoring these meetings and just giving the mark he or she decides? Teachers still effectively have no authority over other teachers and until you give them that ,this idea of us all working together will be theoretical at best in most schools .

"authority over other teachers" now that is the kind of statement that makes me fear the new junior cert assessment model.

evolving_doors

judeboy101 wrote: »

"authority over other teachers" now that is the kind of statement that makes me fear the new junior cert assessment model.

It should be driven by the English dept. head though!

judeboy101

Gebgbegb wrote: »

It should be driven by the English dept. head though!

Dept head? I've worked in son schools where dept head is oldest teacher, or teacher who turns up last to first meeting of year, or principals favourite, or rotated among everyone. No where have I heard it is based on an interview process, where the best candidate gets it.

Benicetomonty

Gebgbegb wrote: »

It should be driven by the English dept. head though!

Dept head is a voluntary position. Might get to a point where it wont be filled if it leads to difficulties with other teachers. Or having to settle them.

man_no_plan

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Dept head is a voluntary position. Might get to a point where it wont be filled if it leads to difficulties with other teachers. Or having to settle them.

There's an additional two hours available this year for the person who coordinates the SLAR. While these hours are very necessary and welcome they are a bit difficult to manage as Mr. White says also they cause a problem on another level. Basically you take the teacher away from one class to do work for another. It is some time the teachers who feel a meeting outside school time would be better because they are committed to all of their classes.

At least the professional time in the JC Circular compensates teachers for this time. While you can see where some of it might be used outside for group planning and SLARS the majority can be used within the school day for personal planning and prep associated with the new course. A misconception in my school is that this is subject department time. That's still catered for under our existing arrangements, we still have to teach TY and leaving cert!!

Perhaps the ASTI / TUI could look for 4 hours of the CP hours to be assigned to SLARS r teachers with two subjects and leave the professional time alone.

I think the professional time, while unwieldy at present, is a massive concession by the DES. Basically recognising the centrality of good preparation to teaching by paying for it.

Of course we got paid before with money to cooperate with SDPI etc but the time more significant, I think, because of the extra jobs it generates and the fact that everyone gets it.

MrJones1973

God we are all up early! I think my statement misconstrued. By authority I mean a proper Head of department. Paid. A person who has authority to make a decision where consensus has not been reached. What about teachers just marking students their own way and ignoring the meeting ? Nothing in present structure to stop that.
I also think my point on it being difficult for a principal to arrange cover for all these meetings is also being misunderstood. He or she has to find five or More teachers to fill in. Five or six teachers free at that time who are scheduled on s and s it otherwise available. Big ask.That's assuming there is no illness that day or a match. It can happen on a normal day that a principal has to cover a class because he/she has nobody else . Nothing to do with teachers not wanting to leave their classes

mirrorwall14

One of our full time teachers of one subject is refusing to take their rotation in subject dept head. Which to be fair, is his right I guess! It's ludicrous to have a job that takes up a decent amount of time unpaid and not chosen on ability

MrJones1973

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

One of our full time teachers of one subject is refusing to take their rotation in subject dept head. Which to be fair, is his right I guess! It's ludicrous to have a job that takes up a decent amount of time unpaid and not chosen on ability

We haven't had one in year's. Bit of a mess. Best way I think is divide up jobs as best you can. We sort of do that.The old adage you get what you pay for holds true

implausible

The 14 hours professional time is to be covered by paid substitution, not s/s.

evolving_doors

implausible wrote: »

The 14 hours professional time is to be covered by paid substitution, not s/s.

Maybe if they all agree to meet outside school hours they be allowed claim the paid substitution.
I think that wouldn't wash with the dept though... As usual.. Rush through it at lunch.

political analyst

implausible wrote: »

The assessment task (AT) must be carried out between the 5th and 9th of December. The booklet will be sent to schools before this.

The students will engage with "a short stimulus in written, audio, audio-visual or multi-modal format" and write a piece. They then will have to write a reflection on the experience of compiling the collection of texts. As far as I know, they will have their two pieces from the Collection of Texts (CBA2) in the exam with them to reflect on.

The booklet here explains a lot of it. There was also a resource booklet given out on the last inservice day. There is an example of an AT provided here.

We are due to have another inservice day in November to go over the AT and CBA2, but that hasn't materialised, not here anyway. As the Collection of Texts has to be completed by December 2nd, it's cutting it a bit tight.

RealJohn, I'd say it is too late for ASTI teachers to be ready for the AT. However, as we are all required to teach the curriculum, getting a Collection of Texts together shouldn't be difficult. The SEC are unlikely to make an exception for the 10% as this would set a precedent for making it optional. What I can see happening is if an agreement is hammered out, that the dates for CBA2 and the AT would be extended out until February or March. The JCT have the staff ready to go, it'd be a logistics job to get everyone through CPD, but it could be done.

It would be political suicide to penalise the students of ASTI members for something that is beyond their control.

implausible

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

God we are all up early! I think my statement misconstrued. By authority I mean a proper Head of department. Paid. A person who has authority to make a decision where consensus has not been reached. What about teachers just marking students their own way and ignoring the meeting ? Nothing in present structure to stop that.

The current advice is that it is still the teacher's professional opinion that stands, even if all the other teachers disagree at the SLAR meeting. It's one of my problems with the new system. We objected so vociferously to not marking our own students for state certification that we are now left with a system that is open to abuse. The buck stops with the person coordinating the SLAR meeting, then I'd imagine the JC coordinator (a position that is not yet an actual post) and then presumably the principal who should get a copy of minutes of the SLAR meeting.

I have previously advocated a system similar to the QQI one, where you mark the students' work and at the end of the year, an external examiner comes in, looks at a sample and signs off on it. This could have been done by the SEC - as they will need fewer examiners at JC level, you could hire examiners to spend a few hours in each school signing off on the work. By taking state certification away, it's left entirely up to the school.

As it is, the only checks and balances I can see happening is if a subject inspector asks to see the work (and now that these inspections have moved away from the paper trail, this is unlikely).

implausible

political analyst wrote: »

It would be political suicide to penalise the students of ASTI members for something that is beyond their control.

It would be educational and systemic suicide to allow this precedent. The results of the ASTI talks will be interesting, but I'd lay money on cooperation with JC reform being a prerequisite for any agreement. English teachers are thoroughly fed up, ASTI ones are operating in the dark in a system that, in my opinion, is here to stay. It'd be a relief to get it sorted.

TheDriver

It will be same as science course where old and new courses ran side by side for a while

political analyst

implausible wrote: »

It would be educational and systemic suicide to allow this precedent.

How?

man_no_plan

implausible wrote: »

The current advice is that it is still the teacher's professional opinion that stands, even if all the other teachers disagree at the SLAR meeting. It's one of my problems with the new system. We objected so vociferously to not marking our own students for state certification that we are now left with a system that is open to abuse. The buck stops with the person coordinating the SLAR meeting, then I'd imagine the JC coordinator (a position that is not yet an actual post) and then presumably the principal who should get a copy of minutes of the SLAR meeting.

I have previously advocated a system similar to the QQI one, where you mark the students' work and at the end of the year, an external examiner comes in, looks at a sample and signs off on it. This could have been done by the SEC - as they will need fewer examiners at JC level, you could hire examiners to spend a few hours in each school signing off on the work. By taking state certification away, it's left entirely up to the school.

As it is, the only checks and balances I can see happening is if a subject inspector asks to see the work (and now that these inspections have moved away from the paper trail, this is unlikely).

You have alluded to it implausible. Its not for state certification so there will never be external moderation. The Sumner tests or mocks aren't moderated and we do okay though?