Xenon v LED Lights

youtheman

Was wondering if many people have experience of both types of lights. Just replaced my Skoda Superb (which had bi-xenon lights) with a Mazda CX-5 (LED lights). I'm very disappointed with the LED lights. Thought the were the modern equivalent of Xenons. But there is no comparison. The Xenons would literally light up half the countryside (not very nice to be on the receiving end admittedly). If I am driving down a country lane and I am on dips then I can only see a few meters ahead, I keep saying to myself "hope there is no one walking ahead of me because I'll only see them at the last second". When I am one fulls then I miss being able to see about 1/2 km ahead. I really do miss my Xenons!. Anyone else feel the same?.

corglass

I'm quite surprised at that, I thought LED would have been better. Maybe it's a manufacturer issue.

It would be interesting if someone has experience of Xenon and LED in the same car model

biko

I see a few comparison vids on the ol youtube

kay 9

They may need adjustment. Any jap car I've had they seem to be set low from manufacture

GustavoFring

Went from a Leon with LED headlights to an Octy with Xenon's. There's no comparison.

The spread of light is far superior with xenon's. The cut off on the LED headlights was very noticeable where the xenon's the light seems to go further into the distance. They also don't produce heat meaning they can ice up while driving on very cold mornings rendering them useless.

In saying that the Leon's LEDs were most likely nothing special and lacked any cornering or adaptive functions and other manufacturers probably do better.

grogi

youtheman wrote: »

Was wondering if many people have experience of both types of lights.

What LED are much better at is the ability to actively form the light beam - individual LEDs can light and dim to lighten as far as possible not blinding the oncoming traffic at the same time... They are not necessarily designed to be brighter.

If the LEDs come without this ability, it is just marketing gimmick...

ianobrien

I find the LED's in the Leon quite good. The dip especially as it lights the left hand ditch quite well. The dip doesn't throw a lot of light to the right as that would be blinding the oncoming traffic. Putting on main beam moves the lights (I'm not too sure if it's reflectors or the location of the LED) and switches on three more LED clusters. They are much better than the standard lights in the Leon.

I much rather light aimed where I need it, rather than it being thrown everywhere.

That being said, the best headlights I've ever experienced were the round H4 headlights in a MK2 Escort.

Atlantic Dawn

Xenon is the king but I don't think I could ever justify them as an option where they are a grand extra on some new cars.

robbie99

It's a shame this, but the reason LEDs aren't performing as well as xenons is because of cost cutting.

LEDs use cheaper reflectors while xenons must use projectors because their bulbs are brighter than some EU limit (2000 lumens I think). Xenons must also have headlight washers. LEDs stay under the EU limit by limiting the number of LEDs in the array.

LED systems are also much lighter than xenons leading to lower CO2 emissions. No ballast, no headlight washers, no self leveling required...

Although xenons might be a little bit brighter, what you're seeing really when comparing LEDs to xenons is actually reflectors v projectors. Projectors are what give xenons the range and the sharp cut-off. Reflectors scatter the LED light more.

http://bestheadlightbulbs.com/projector-vs-reflector-headlights-which-is-best/

What we really need are LEDs in a projector housing!

JoeA3

Love the xenons in my car. Wouldn't have a car without them spec'd, they'd be up there with seats and a steering wheel in terms of minimum requirement.

I'm surprised at this thread though. I had thought LED's were the next great thing. Some manufacturers are offering xenons as standard and LED's at a costly premium (I think Audi do this with the A6 anyway) so I'd have expected the LED's to provide even better light output.

Odyssey 2005

Have an 09 superb with bi zenons. Light is brilliant. Also had a 141 superb with big zenons light was even better,best lights on any car I've ever driven.
Changed the 141 for an E class with led's. Pure Crap,nearly back to having someone walk in front with a red flag. Progress me hole.

CrowdedHouse

The OH has a Suzuki Vitara I find the LED lights on it are fine - although the Fulls are halogen
(I have adaptive xenons on my own car)

Voodoomelon

Interesting indeed, I automatically thought LEDs we superior in every way to xenons. Wonder what they're like from the leading headlight tech brands like BMW or Audi.

NIMAN

Definitely interesting stuff.

The way LEDs are being pushed in the home bulb market, I just assumed they would be much better for the car sector too.

You live and learn.

Odyssey 2005

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Interesting indeed, I automatically thought LEDs we superior in every way to xenons. Wonder what they're like from the leading headlight tech brands like BMW or Audi.

I think the audi .matrix (?) light and are suposto be good.

F34

I've had xenons on my 1 series F20, 3 series gt F34 and now LED's on my 3 touring F31 and the LED's are much better and less blinding if they hit a sign on full. I actually thought the xenons in the F34 were not as good as the F30 maybe it was due to ride height but the LED's in the F31 have been fantastic and worth the upgrade over the xenons.

Eric Cartman

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Xenon is the king but I don't think I could ever justify them as an option where they are a grand extra on some new cars.

when you don't hit a deer or a log in the road because you can see, that grand will mean a lot.

I have xenons on both cars and could not go back, there is nothing better and from a safety perspective they are priceless.

_Kaiser_

Interesting thread.. I have xenons in my new/previous A6 and would have assumed that LEDs were better - although they're certainly more blinding when oncoming at night

I may need new bulbs on the new A6 though as I find the output pretty poor compared to the last one.. unless there was some tinkering done between the original C6/4F and the facelift?

kirving

Only have Xenon dipped beams but I love the light output, means I have to use the Halogen full beams less often. With the darker evenings now, going to upgrade to something better though.

Still don't really rate LED's, except from maybe the premium manufacturers, but no personal experience of them. Laser is the future though.

NIMAN

Who do they compare in terms of cost?
Aren't some bulbs very expensive to replace?

I would have thought LED would be the future due to the amount of energy they use (i.e. low)?

GustavoFring

NIMAN wrote: »

Who do they compare in terms of cost?
Aren't some bulbs very expensive to replace?

I would have thought LED would be the future due to the amount of energy they use (i.e. low)?

They can be expensive to replace, about €100 a side. But tbh...I've replaced two over the years when one failed. I'd have spent more money on night breakers for the placebo effect.

Eric Cartman

D3S Bi-Xenon bulbs - about 110 euro , Changed them in my range rover, the ones I took out were the originals so 7 years / 60,000 miles per change.

Summer wind

I've had 2 BMW F10's with adaptive xenon lights and they are fantastic with light like daylight. I'd a 2015 Audi A6 for just over a year with xenon lights and found them awful really dim. Couldn't believe the difference. Delighted to be back in an F10 again. The adaptive xenons are great at night when you are driving on dark twisty back roads. I thought LED lights would be better again as most companies offer them as an upgrade. Think I'll be sticking with xenon.

bear1

I always wondered but why do xenons need to have washer jets?
Our auris has xenons and find them very very good.

bazz26

I've owned two BMW F10s, one a pre LCI and the current one is a LCI model, both with adaptive xenons. I found the original F10's xenons impressive but the LCI ones are even better in my experience. Have no experience of LED headlights yet but I'd be very pissed if they were inferior to xenons given they are a very expensive upgrade on most makes. FWIW I'd never go back to halogen again, I often borrow the father's Auris and the poor light from the halogens makes me think there are a couple of candles in there.

dissed doc

youtheman wrote: »

Was wondering if many people have experience of both types of lights. Just replaced my Skoda Superb (which had bi-xenon lights) with a Mazda CX-5 (LED lights). I'm very disappointed with the LED lights. Thought the were the modern equivalent of Xenons. But there is no comparison. The Xenons would literally light up half the countryside (not very nice to be on the receiving end admittedly). If I am driving down a country lane and I am on dips then I can only see a few meters ahead, I keep saying to myself "hope there is no one walking ahead of me because I'll only see them at the last second". When I am one fulls then I miss being able to see about 1/2 km ahead. I really do miss my Xenons!. Anyone else feel the same?.

The "active" type of LED headlamps with dynamic cornering lights, and active/smart main beam shuttering seen on Audi (Matrix) and VW (Dynamic Light Assist) is quite excellent when you see it running, and beats my experience of previous Xenons. Probably the best upgrade you could make!

I would also say, get your lights checked and readjusted if necessary. It might be a different type of light but it shouldn't be so obviously reduced.

carsfan2

I have experience of Xenons and leds now on BMW and don't find the led any better. The light is a little whiter but the spread is no better especially on low beam. I suspect manufacturers can do led lights far cheaper than Xenons and save also as no washers.
They are taking the mickey than to upgrade to active leds. For instance the new 5 series has led standard but to get active leds is almost 2 grand for visibility pack when before it was about 1100 to upgrade to active Xenons previously.
Do agree that the adaptive versions of both xenon and led are superior however not sure worth the premium but definitely I agree I would pay over standard halogens

Tropheus

Seemingly xenons require headlamp washers to disperse snow and ice as they will scatter the light and dazzle oncoming drivers. Have factory xenons on my Allroad and the washers were useless during the big freeze in 2010 as they just froze. Should have used neat vodka in the washer bottle.

I think the additional high cost of factory xenons is down to manufacturers having to fit auto levelling and washers as the cost of the technology itself isn't that high. LEDs should be even cheaper.

Special Circumstances

Tropheus wrote: »

Seemingly xenons require headlamp washers to disperse snow and ice as they will scatter the light and dazzle oncoming drivers. Have factory xenons on my Allroad and the washers were useless during the big freeze in 2010 as they just froze. Should have used neat vodka in the washer bottle.

I think the additional high cost of factory xenons is down to manufacturers having to fit auto levelling and washers as the cost of the technology itself isn't that high. LEDs should be even cheaper.

But surely if you make LEDs as powerful as Xenons... then you will then need self leveling and washers for them too?

Had a load of spare isopropyl alcohol during the big freeze... used a little too much, some bang of alcohol when using the washer jets!:eek:

GustavoFring

LEDs have self leveling, it's just the washers they do without.

Special Circumstances

GustavoFring wrote: »

LEDs have self leveling, it's just the washers they do without.

Because they are under the 2000 lumen threshold of light output?

If they produced as many lumens as 35W Xenons then they would need washers and self leveling from my understanding of the requirements.





The thing about HIDs is that they are a standard bulb size (s?). If you need a new bulb or a something goes wrong with ballasts you have options other than the main dealer.

I don't think LEDs* will be a standard, replaceable bulb - they will be custom "driver + LED" modules made to fit Car X. You better hope they don't fail outside warranty. If there was some requirement for LED lamps to be covered by warranty for a longer period than the main warranty that would be decent enough. However I can't see the EU doing this really.

*I don't mean eBay tat

grogi

Special Circumstances wrote: »

I don't think LEDs* will be a standard, replaceable bulb - they will be custom "driver + LED" modules made to fit Car X. You better hope they don't fail outside warranty. If there was some requirement for LED lamps to be covered by warranty for a longer period than the main warranty that would be decent enough. However I can't see the EU doing this really.

This... Few years down the line and a broken light will equal Cat C/D write-off.

I've seen once an interview with a designer for Ferrari... He said, and that applies to whole industry, not only luxury brands, that they are tasked to design expensive equipment that can be justified by claiming increased safety. LED lights fit that bill extremely well...

Tropheus

I wonder if we'll see after market LED upgrades for factory xenons? This thread would make me think twice about going down that line.

I have to say the xenons on the Superb are the best I've seen. My wife has one and the light output is incredible. Way above anything my Allroad is capable of.

GustavoFring

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Because they are under the 2000 lumen threshold of light output?

If they produced as many lumens as 35W Xenons then they would need washers and self leveling from my understanding of the requirements.





The thing about HIDs is that they are a standard bulb size (s?). If you need a new bulb or a something goes wrong with ballasts you have options other than the main dealer.

I don't think LEDs* will be a standard, replaceable bulb - they will be custom "driver + LED" modules made to fit Car X. You better hope they don't fail outside warranty. If there was some requirement for LED lamps to be covered by warranty for a longer period than the main warranty that would be decent enough. However I can't see the EU doing this really.

*I don't mean eBay tat

I believe that's one of the reasons yes. The same applies to xenon's under 2000 lumens.

I got a bit nosey one day with the Leon I hads lights. I had a few bits off the front so took the light off for a gander. There's no way in hell you could replace the LEDs without breaking the light beyond repair. There's been a few fail on owners forums within warranty (luckily) and when they asked how much a replacement was they were up to a grand sterling.

Oafley Jones

Tropheus wrote: »

I wonder if we'll see after market LED upgrades for factory xenons? This thread would make me think twice about going down that line.

I have to say the xenons on the Superb are the best I've seen. My wife has one and the light output is incredible. Way above anything my Allroad is capable of.

Superb's Xenons are excellent alright. Think they outclass even the ones on the Discovery.

The high horse brigade

I have a Mazda 6 with xenons with the Adaptive front-lighting system which is excellent, turns the lights up to 15 degrees into the corners as you steer. I expected this to be the norm from now on

bazz26

The high horse brigade wrote: »

I have a Mazda 6 with xenons with the Adaptive front-lighting system which is excellent, turns the lights up to 15 degrees into the corners as you steer. I expected this to be the norm from now on

They were replaced on the 6 with adaptive LED headlights when it got facelifted last year, I imagine the CX-5 has the same type system.

Micky 32

I have B7 Passat with xenons. A friend has a B8 Passat with premium LED lights. Dips are approx the same but the headlights HUGE difference they are brilliant!

Special Circumstances

Tropheus wrote: »

I wonder if we'll see after market LED upgrades for factory xenons? This thread would make me think twice about going down that line.

I've yet to see a LED retrofit for H7 or whatever bulb that wasn't pure eBay tat, I can't see any decent quality drop in replacement for HID bulbs being anywhere near as bright or as good.

I presume, and gustavo frings poking supports this, that the factory fit LED lamps are pretty much sealed units and specific to a particular model. There are drivers, heat sinking, correct focal point to consider when trying to retrofit LEDs as a H7 or D2S or whatever, all this are built into the lamp unit for factory LEDs. (Caution, much guesswork and supposing)

newacc2015

GustavoFring wrote: »

They can be expensive to replace, about €100 a side. But tbh...I've replaced two over the years when one failed. I'd have spent more money on night breakers for the placebo effect.

I know someone who had a Renault. To replace a Xenon lightbulb, it was €500. I thought they were BSing, until they showed me the receipt from the dealership. Since Renaults are so poorly made, you had to replace more than just the bulb

grogi

newacc2015 wrote: »

I know someone who had a Renault. To replace a Xenon lightbulb, it was €500. I thought they were BSing, until they showed me the receipt from the dealership. Since Renaults are so poorly made, you had to replace more than just the bulb

The bulbs are less than hundred a piece... But if he is rich enough to pay dealer prices...

GustavoFring

newacc2015 wrote: »

I know someone who had a Renault. To replace a Xenon lightbulb, it was €500. I thought they were BSing, until they showed me the receipt from the dealership. Since Renaults are so poorly made, you had to replace more than just the bulb

That doesn't make any sense. There was more work done or else they got shafted.

bazz26

They must or would want to have replaced the entire headlight unit for that sort of money.

Even the likes of BMW don't charge that for a xenon bulb, they run regular winter offers of replacing blown bulbs including xenons free of charge. They certainly would not be doing it if they were costing that much. I priced a pair of proper brand xenons like Philips or Osram online for my F10 and they were coming in at under €100 delivered.

JoeA3

newacc2015 wrote: »

I know someone who had a Renault. To replace a Xenon lightbulb, it was €500. I thought they were BSing, until they showed me the receipt from the dealership. Since Renaults are so poorly made, you had to replace more than just the bulb

The xenon bulbs are mad money from the dealers. I'm talking €200+ per bulb. You could probably do better on eBay but I'm not sure what the quality would be like. I've read that it's a good idea to replace them in pairs as the xenon's light output does degrade and change colour over time so you'd have mis matched bulbs.

Then there's actually fitting them. Renault aren't alone in the stupid design stakes. The front bumper, grills, etc has to come off in order to access the headlight properly across many marques! That's 2+ hours labour!

In summary - the €500 bill doesn't surprise me.

Voodoomelon

BMW charge €295 for a d1s xenon. You can get the exact same OEM bulb online for €50. Nothing cheap about adaptive xenons either, so can't see LEDs being much more, if not cheaper.

Ded_Zebra

One of the main reasons manufacturer's are using LED headlights is because they can classify them as an "eco innovation" when coupled with a highly efficient alternator. Basically once they prove through the emissions testing of the vehicle that they save 1g of CO2 per km they can count it as a carbon saving on their range.

grogi

JoeA3 wrote: »

The xenon bulbs are mad money from the dealers. I'm talking €200+ per bulb. You could probably do better on eBay but I'm not sure what the quality would be like.

eBay might not be the best option, but here without much effort...

D1S for 43 GBP: https://www.amazon.co.uk/BREAKER-UNLIMITED-headlight-66140XNB-folding/dp/B00HWWX7R2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1478733831&sr=8-1&keywords=d1s&th=1

D2S for 65 GBP: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Philips-Xenon-X-tremeVision-85122XVS1-Light/dp/B009HL9L4O/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1478733832&sr=8-2&keywords=d2s

D3S for 58 GBP: https://www.amazon.co.uk/XENARC-ORIGINAL-headlight-folding-carton/dp/B007A0UW2E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1478733839&sr=8-1&keywords=d3s

Just as examples, all good brands.

wotswattage

I'd have major concerns with LED lights degrading over time. Any LED powered flashlight (and not just cheap ones) I've owned seems to degrade significantly over time, while they'll never actually fail they get dimmer and dimmer. Anyone else see this? Im envisaging cars driving round with shockingly poor lights in a few years time!?!

Also re xenons, I have xenon dipped beams in my car and while they are decent I wouldn't rate them as highly as some of the halogen setups I've come across over the years. Xenon isn't automatically = better in all cases...

Voodoomelon

I've had a Klarus flashlight for 4 years, CREE LED, as ridiculously bright as it was at the start and it gets used a lot.

wotswattage

Ded_Zebra wrote: »

One of the main reasons manufacturer's are using LED headlights is because they can classify them as an "eco innovation" when coupled with a highly efficient alternator. Basically once they prove through the emissions testing of the vehicle that they save 1g of CO2 per km they can count it as a carbon saving on their range.

I remember an Audi ad a while back they were claiming that the LED drl lights were a big step forward for energy consumption. Basically they went from no drl lights (and no extra power consumption) to drls (using power) and boasted about it being a power saving innovation ?!?!

R.O.R

I got a DS1 Xenon from our local motor factors for €59 (dropped in to me as well). Previous bulb had been done under Volvo warranty and I could see that invoice - €154.40 + 13.5% VAT

Was driving a new S90 with LED lights last night / this morning - much better light than the Halogens in my 5 Series, and seemed on par with the Xenon's in the wife's XC60. Lots of fancy settings as well for the speed of turning etc.