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Massive infrastructure deficit, solutions

  • 08-11-2016 10:45am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 17,516 ✭✭✭✭ Idbatterim


    Ok so we have a massive infrastructure deficit. We need billions for road, rail and water infrastructure primarily. There is now so much fighting over the tiny slice of pie to go around Once a year, the farce that is the yearly budget. I'd be all up for cutting some expenditure and spending it on infrastructure instead. Seeing as that won't happen. Should there be a hike in the price of fuel of say 10c a litre or so, To start getting the ball rolling on the urgent projects? Is it the least worst option?

    Also given the massive investment in motorways that has starved rail. Should we not in an ideal world, now move to a system whereby you pay a low fee per km of motorway used across the entire network?


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Comments

  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,202 Mod ✭✭✭✭ CatInABox


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    Ok so we have a massive infrastructure deficit. We need billions for road, rail and water infrastructure primarily. There is now so much fighting over the tiny slice of pie to go around Once a year, the farce that is the yearly budget. I'd be all up for cutting some expenditure and spending it on infrastructure instead. Seeing as that won't happen. Should there be a hike in the price of fuel of say 10c a litre or so, To start getting the ball rolling on the urgent projects? Is it the least worst option?

    Also given the massive investment in motorways that has starved rail. Should we not in an ideal world, now move to a system whereby you pay a low fee per km of motorway used across the entire network?

    Any extra taxation will be swallowed up by unions asking for more of the pie, and by politicians who think staying in power is the most important act of government. There's no way to ring fence money when Irish politicians are in charge of the ring fencing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,516 ✭✭✭✭ Idbatterim


    Commit to the larger infrastructure spend, sanction the projects, so the spending is committed and not there to be wasted...

    Maybe there should be an emergency mini budget. Reverse all that was done in budget 17. Claim "emergency" still not over (I think we are sailing very close to the wind and if the **** hits the fan again, better now than after another four or five years of ps and welfare buy offs) Forget their pay rises. Funny how they can magic up massive sums in certain areas and other areas are left to rot!


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,903 ✭✭✭✭ Wanderer78


    Higher corporation tax and introduction of a public banking system would be a good start. We gotta start thinking outside of the box, we can't keep taxing the citizens for our every need


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,516 ✭✭✭✭ Idbatterim


    Again I agree with you In theory wanderer. This is Ireland. Not a chance it will happen. I'm proposing what our shower of idiots might actually do, rather than something that there's not a chance in hell that they will do. Would be interesting to know, what a 10c rise would collect on fuel...

    Here's why I say fuel only. Can you imagine the uproar from Simi etc if motor tax was increased. "Damaging confidence, creating uncertainty" in the new car market etc...


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,830 ✭✭✭ markpb


    I wonder how Irish people (or perhaps people in Dublin) would react to a vote on something similar to this:
    Measure R was a ballot measure during the November 2008 elections in Los Angeles County, that proposed a half-cent sales taxes increase on each dollar of taxable sales (originating in or made from Los Angeles County) for thirty years in order to pay for transportation projects and improvements. The measure was approved by voters with 67.22% of the vote, just over the two-thirds majority required by the state of California to raise local taxes. The project was touted as a way to "improve the environment by getting more Angelenos out of their cars and into the region's growing subway, light rail, and bus services." It will result in the construction or expansion of a dozen rail lines in the county.
    Wikipedia

    It was so successful that:
    Next month, voters will again consider a tax hike to build out the public transit system. Measure M on the November ballot would raise the sales tax by a half-cent and make the Measure R half-cent increase permanent. If approved by two-thirds of voters, two-cents on every dollar spent in L.A. County would be dedicated to transportation projects. The Times supports Measure M because the region cannot continue to prosper without investing in a modern, efficient transportation system.
    LA Times

    The key thing is that the list of projects were semi-agreed in advance of the poll and the sales tax is legally ring-fenced
    for those transport projects. None of your Transport 21 pretend ring-fenced malarky, the county of LA are not allowed spent that money on anything else.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭ LeinsterDub




  • Registered Users Posts: 25,903 ✭✭✭✭ Wanderer78


    markpb wrote: »
    The key thing is that the list of projects were semi-agreed in advance of the poll and the sales tax is legally ring-fenced
    for those transport projects. None of your Transport 21 pretend ring-fenced malarky, the county of LA are not allowed spent that money on anything else.

    were they the funds Schwarzenegger was trying to get access to, to put them to other uses?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,083 ✭✭✭ jackofalltrades


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    Ok so we have a massive infrastructure deficit. We need billions for road, rail and water infrastructure primarily. There is now so much fighting over the tiny slice of pie to go around Once a year, the farce that is the yearly budget.
    I'd be all up for cutting some expenditure and spending it on infrastructure instead. Seeing as that won't happen. Should there be a hike in the price of fuel of say 10c a litre or so, To start getting the ball rolling on the urgent projects? Is it the least worst option?
    I'd like to see infrastructure spending increased too.
    I agree it should be taken out of the existing budget.
    This should really have been done during the last budget rather than increasing current expenditure.
    I think taxes once you bring them in seem to be rarely reversed.
    10c a litre on fuel is a lot, given that motorists have already had to deal with motor tax increases, a carbon levy, increases in vat, duty, insurance and more regular NCTs.
    That and the price of oil is low at the moment if it starts to rise these extra taxes are really going to start to bite.
    Also given the massive investment in motorways that has starved rail. Should we not in an ideal world, now move to a system whereby you pay a low fee per km of motorway used across the entire network?
    Has motorway building really starved rail of investment?
    I think adding another fee to motorways, when a lot are already tolled would be very unfair.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,516 ✭✭✭✭ Idbatterim


    Has motorway building really starved rail of investment?
    I think adding another fee to motorways, when a lot are already tolled would be very unfair.

    The amount that has been spent on road v rail is staggering. There are many very expensive road projects, that I would have put behind MN and DU. My proposal with the motorways is to spread the burden, have everyone who use them pay a token amount, not just some poor unfortunate who happens to be going one exit like the westlink and can be done for €3.10 Maybe have a monthly cap on the figure also.

    I drive a 2.5L car, the bro a 2.5L and 3L on the old system. so I know all about being done. But we need to look where we are going, I personally would be happy to pay more, if it was ringfenced. It sorts out a number of issues. Massively would increase quality of life. What value do you put on not having to sit in gridlock for god knows how many hours per week? How much is that costing you in fuel also?

    Its a win / win in my opinion. It would also open up new sites for development and allow far higher density housing. Another massive issue...

    the way its looking to me ,taxation may have to be raised, but they can F**k right off if they think are going near income taxes etc. Bring back in the water charges with no exemptions and property tax should be increased...


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,612 ✭✭✭ Dardania


    CatInABox wrote: »
    Idbatterim wrote: »
    Ok so we have a massive infrastructure deficit. We need billions for road, rail and water infrastructure primarily. There is now so much fighting over the tiny slice of pie to go around Once a year, the farce that is the yearly budget. I'd be all up for cutting some expenditure and spending it on infrastructure instead. Seeing as that won't happen. Should there be a hike in the price of fuel of say 10c a litre or so, To start getting the ball rolling on the urgent projects? Is it the least worst option?

    Also given the massive investment in motorways that has starved rail. Should we not in an ideal world, now move to a system whereby you pay a low fee per km of motorway used across the entire network?

    Any extra taxation will be swallowed up by unions asking for more of the pie, and by politicians who think staying in power is the most important act of government. There's no way to ring fence money when Irish politicians are in charge of the ring fencing.

    Spot on
    http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2016/1108/830183-fiscal-space/

    It's depressing really - there was a poll a week or so ago, asking would people rather more PS staff or better paid existing PS staff. Where's the option that I want the optimum Public Services - however that is staffed or funded?!

    I tend to believe LPT should be used to fund infrastructure. And the local authorities should learn / be encouraged to co-invest in mutually beneficial infrastructure.

    So say electrifying the celbridge train line:
    IR would do the work, and KCC & DCC take on a portion of the costs, as they would gain later.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,539 ✭✭✭✭ Grandeeod


    CatInABox wrote: »
    Any extra taxation will be swallowed up by unions asking for more of the pie, and by politicians who think staying in power is the most important act of government. There's no way to ring fence money when Irish politicians are in charge of the ring fencing.

    The best ringfencing story took place 11 years ago in Dublin Castle.

    Transport 21.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,516 ✭✭✭✭ Idbatterim


    I tend to believe LPT should be used to fund infrastructure. And the local authorities should learn / be encouraged to co-invest in mutually beneficial infrastructure.

    I have just read that over half the projected fiscal space for budget 2018 has already been used. Increase property tax rates and get water charges back on the table... I cant see any other options for them politically, an election could be held any time, they wont attempt increasing ps pay and increasing income tax rates etc. It needs to come from somewhere less contentious, I know water charges are contentious for some, but the LPT is an obvious source for more funding for the state...

    http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2016/1108/830183-fiscal-space/


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,903 ✭✭✭✭ Wanderer78


    ah i think water charges are done for the moment, re-introduction would be political suicide.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,083 ✭✭✭ jackofalltrades


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    The amount that has been spent on road v rail is staggering. There are many very expensive road projects, that I would have put behind MN and DU.
    I don't think there was ever any competition between them though.
    I think the motorways were going to be built, I just don't believe serious rail infrastructural investment is ever going to happen in Dublin.
    I drive a 2.5L car, the bro a 2.5L and 3L on the old system. so I know all about being done. But we need to look where we are going, I personally would be happy to pay more, if it was ringfenced.
    It sorts out a number of issues. Massively would increase quality of life. What value do you put on not having to sit in gridlock for god knows how many hours per week? How much is that costing you in fuel also?
    I don't trust politicians to ringfence funding.
    I could just imagine politicians trying to pull fast ones.
    That and I think it sets a bad precedent, tax increases could be expected for all large future projects.
    People need to change their mindset and see infrastructure spending as a priority.
    They're pay rises and welfare increases need to wait.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,903 ✭✭✭✭ Wanderer78


    i cant blame people looking for raises, i think david mcwilliams is right in saying, very little has been done to tackle the rising cost of living here, particularly in relation to housing. i can see this ending in tears unfortunately.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,612 ✭✭✭ Dardania


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    I tend to believe LPT should be used to fund infrastructure. And the local authorities should learn / be encouraged to co-invest in mutually beneficial infrastructure.

    I have just read that over half the projected fiscal space for budget 2018 has already been used. Increase property tax rates and get water charges back on the table... I cant see any other options for them politically, an election could be held any time, they wont attempt increasing ps pay and increasing income tax rates etc. It needs to come from somewhere less contentious, I know water charges are contentious for some, but the LPT is an obvious source for more funding for the state...

    http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2016/1108/830183-fiscal-space/
    Merge the LPT source with this:
    And a good funding stream could be there...
    The local authorities need to be confident to use LPT for this purpose, and not for day to day expenses only...


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,961 ✭✭✭✭ Del2005


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    The amount that has been spent on road v rail is staggering. There are many very expensive road projects, that I would have put behind MN and DU. My proposal with the motorways is to spread the burden, have everyone who use them pay a token amount, not just some poor unfortunate who happens to be going one exit like the westlink and can be done for €3.10 Maybe have a monthly cap on the figure also.

    I drive a 2.5L car, the bro a 2.5L and 3L on the old system. so I know all about being done. But we need to look where we are going, I personally would be happy to pay more, if it was ringfenced. It sorts out a number of issues. Massively would increase quality of life. What value do you put on not having to sit in gridlock for god knows how many hours per week? How much is that costing you in fuel also?

    Its a win / win in my opinion. It would also open up new sites for development and allow far higher density housing. Another massive issue...

    the way its looking to me ,taxation may have to be raised, but they can F**k right off if they think are going near income taxes etc. Bring back in the water charges with no exemptions and property tax should be increased...

    Most of the infrastructure deficit in Dublin is due to politics and that is never going to change. You can't invest in MN or DU unless you spend the same on a white elephant in some place down the country, so instead of our politicians growing a back bone and telling their constituents that investment in Dublin is good for the rest of the country they block it.

    Ring fencing will never happen in the country. We had a national pension reserve fund, one of the few good things we did in the boom and amazingly something which was >5 year plan. Where is that ring fenced money gone?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,003 dev100


    Idbatterim wrote:
    Ok so we have a massive infrastructure deficit. We need billions for road, rail and water infrastructure primarily. There is now so much fighting over the tiny slice of pie to go around Once a year, the farce that is the yearly budget. I'd be all up for cutting some expenditure and spending it on infrastructure instead. Seeing as that won't happen. Should there be a hike in the price of fuel of say 10c a litre or so, To start getting the ball rolling on the urgent projects? Is it the least worst option?


    Extra 10 cent on litre of fuel ? All that will do is drive up costs and make it uneconomical for people to work in low paid jobs . You have to encourage people to work and not discourage them . You will see car taxes rising in the next few years as most of the pee 08 cars will be gone and they won't be generating as much revenue on the newer system

    Like a household budget if you want to buy anything big and u are at your limit you need to either earn more money or cut down on unnecessary spending to afford the big item or a combination of both


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,464 ✭✭✭ munchkin_utd


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    i cant blame people looking for raises, i think david mcwilliams is right in saying, very little has been done to tackle the rising cost of living here, particularly in relation to housing. i can see this ending in tears unfortunately.
    +1

    Theres a section of the country struggling with child care costs, need of a second car to compensate for crapness of transport options especially links for that last mile to your house, are stuck in chronic traffic as theres no speedy mass transit option etc.

    Quite simply, if there was slightly higher taxes in the form of lower universal allowances
    - you could fund childcare to bridge that few years when parents (of the nations future tax and pension payers!) are back at work
    - and fund and subsidise public transport -which of course then increases the country's productivity and attractiveness compared to the mounting chaos at the moment during rush hour.

    Indeed, people would have lost money thanks to paying a few euro more in tax, but if you pay a few hundred in tax more, but gain in 1000s by not needing (to buy, maintain, tax, insure and fuel) a second car or parking charges at a station or cheaper child care then you are actually better off at the end of it.

    Its amazing that everyone excuses Irelands lower taxes compared to Germanic countries by saying that at least you get something for the higher taxes abroad, yet nobody in Ireland would vote to pay more taxes and actually have a properly functioning country in exchange.
    Indeed I wouldnt trust Irelands politicans, but I would trust the civil servants who on the whole have way more cop on and ability than the politicans aka, professional funeral attenders.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,019 Jennifer Rhythmic Transition


    We need to increase our exports rather than further tax the people of the country. Our number one renewable natural resource is water. We should borrow the funds and build the infrastructure to allow us export to the UK and Europe.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,961 ✭✭✭✭ Del2005


    We need to increase our exports rather than further tax the people of the country. Our number one renewable natural resource is water. We should borrow the funds and build the infrastructure to allow us export to the UK and Europe.

    We can't even water our own cities, look at the reaction to Dublin needing water. I can imagine the NIMBYS when we try to ship water abroad, especially when they already killed shipping the wind to the UK.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,019 Jennifer Rhythmic Transition


    So because it might be difficult to get started we should just not bother?

    We need to stop thinking so short term. Where is Ireland going to be in 10 years? Our corporation tax rate is already coming under fire, how long can we hold out? When corpo tax intake dries up, where is the money going to come from?
    Del2005 wrote: »
    We can't even water our own cities, look at the reaction to Dublin needing water. I can imagine the NIMBYS when we try to ship water abroad, especially when they already killed shipping the wind to the UK.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,230 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    Perhaps building infrastructure that will deliver real returns for the country?

    Metro North, DART Underground, M20 Cork-Limerick, M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy and the Dunkettle Interchange will make returns multiple times the initial outlay they will cost.

    Metro North is expected to open in 2027, the original DART Underground plan is being redesigned to save pennies, the M20 isn't even an actual plan at the minute, the M28 is in planning and the funding for Dunkettle, which is ready to go, isn't being provided. Dunkettle has a benefit:cost of 10:1 and funding is being withheld. WHY???

    Build these instead of ludicrous plans to widen the M3, M4, M7 & M11 and bring additional traffic into Dublin which has nowhere to go. Build a 21st century rail network, then widen these motorways and toll them at peak times to raise transport funding. Drive into Dublin at peak times all you want but pay for it, and there will be a realistic alternative.


  • Registered Users Posts: 36,082 ✭✭✭✭ ED E


    Step 1: Save every penny we can
    Step 2: Wait for the hyperloop pioneers to get it working and iron out any kinks
    Step 3: Build hyperloop from Cork to Belfast with a Dublin offshoot
    Step 4: Profit


    Who am I kidding, we build pointless metal spikes not infrastructure. Give the DB boys a raise so they can be continually MIA :pac: *Emigrates to Canada*


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭ LeinsterDub


    marno21 wrote: »
    Dunkettle has a benefit:cost of 10:1 and funding is being withheld. WHY???

    The mind boggles at the fact A someone thought it was a good idea to put a round about in the middle of 2 motorways (technically not motorways) and B we are dragging our feet about removing it.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,230 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    The mind boggles at the fact A someone thought it was a good idea to put a round about in the middle of 2 motorways (technically not motorways) and B we are dragging our feet about removing it.
    The M8, N40 and N25 approaching the Dunkettle interchange are all motorway standard. The N25 can't be motorway there because the alternative route was destroyed when the N8 Glanmire Bypass was being built and the alternative route was interrupted to save the cost of 1 underbridge.

    It's ludicrous that the roundabout is still there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,097 ✭✭✭ pigtown


    Is the hold-up just money related? Have they sorted out the planning issues?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 532 511


    The problem is rural Ireland is costing too much to subsidize and our parish pump politicians continue to look after their own constituencies, depriving Dublin and our other cities form well-needed investment. It's time to start reducing and cutting off subsidies, this will encourage people to move to urban areas. Small, high density states tend to be the wealthiest states.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,612 ✭✭✭ Dardania


    511 wrote: »
    The problem is rural Ireland is costing too much to subsidize and our parish pump politicians continue to look after their own constituencies, depriving Dublin and our other cities form well-needed investment. It's time to start reducing and cutting off subsidies, this will encourage people to move to urban areas. Small, high density states tend to be the wealthiest states.

    Achieve it by focusing LPT collected being spent in the same area. Reduce use of income tax derived funds going to local needs, and increase LPT to makeup shortfall.


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