Now Ye're Talking - to an infant milk scientist

I'm an infant milk scientist, AMA

brokensoul wrote: »

Thanks so much for that!

Do you have any knowledge around combining infant probiotics with formula?

In what way? As a food supplement? Yeah I mean probiotic research is massive, and there are huge benefits of probiotics. But I don't really understand your question, sorry.

I'm an infant milk scientist, AMA

pwurple wrote: »

Can I ask more about the research please. What types of cancers are likely to be affected by breastmilk, or where is the research concentrated?

You can!

Two components of breast milk - the most abundant protein and the most abundant fatty acid - can combine to produce a complex called HAMLET. Yes, you read that correctly and we call the cow version BAMLET. Anyway! HAMLET has been shown to kill all types of cancer cell in vitro (so in the lab), without causing any damage to healthy, differentiated cells. It has been tested in humans for bladder cancer and skin cancer and has been incredibly effective.

It's about to start stage 2 trials in Sweden, they're just finalising a few of the details.

Currently the compound isn't active in blood, but when applied directly to tumours it kills them. It works in brain glioblastomas, bladder cancer and colon cancer in mice too, so scope for further research there. If you would like links to the articles I would be happy to oblige.

Oh and the compound has been shown to make MRSA lose its resistance to antibiotics, so they're researching that in New York currently.

My PhD focused on whether this compound could be formed in the stomach of breast fed infants - as the conditions in the tummy are ideal for the complex formation.

So whilst most people think Shakespeare when they hear HAMLET mentioned, I have other thoughts

I'm an infant milk scientist, AMA

Cakerbaker wrote: »

For disclosures sake I'm currently breast feeding and have no intentions of stopping any time soon. I've read up on the benefits of breast milk over formula but I'm just curious if formula has any health or nutritional benefits over breast milk (assuming it's a healthy baby with no health issues / allergies etc which). Thanks!

Not to the best of my knowledge, no.

I'm an infant milk scientist, AMA

Teeley wrote: »

Hi..I'm currently giving my baby the recommended daily dose of Vit D. Can I also take a Vit D supplement or could that result baby receiving too high a daily dose?
I know you said no such thing as a silly question but think I might have managed it!

Have absolutely no idea, sorry. Perhaps you should follow up with your doctor with that question! To the best of my knowledge, extra vit d is excreted, and it needs sunlight to be converted (hence the increase in low mood over winter), but I wouldn't want to lead you astray!

I'm an infant milk scientist, AMA

Lisha wrote: »

Hi this is a fascinating topic.

I've always wondered if a woman with a poor (or average) diet will produce breast milk with all the possible nutrients?

Is everyone's beast milk different and are some babies better off on formula ?
Thanks for doing this ama

It's been shown that the diet of the mother can influence milk quality, but not significantly. Nutrients preferentially enter breast milk so if Mum is any way deficient in anything, breast feeding is going to run her down pretty quickly.

Some women can't produce proper levels of milk and nobody really knows why.

Babies of mothers who require medication tend to be better off with formula, for obvious reasons. Also mothers with infectious diseases could put their baby at risk by breastfeeding.

donnapuppy

I'm an infant milk scientist, AMA wrote: »

As the milk is unpasteurised, it will start to turn more quickly than pasteurised cows milk. I would take it on a case by case basis by looking at the milk and smelling it, but 5 days might be too long.

And for freeze thaw. .. in my research I didn't experience any negative impact on the milk with freeze thaw, but I wouldn't recommend doing it frequently - freezing a thawed milk once should be okay, but if baby doesn't finish that feed I wouldn't refreeze that milk.

Up to 5 days in a fridge is fine. I can't post links but if you google HSE breast milk storage you should get the information you need

donnapuppy

I'm an infant milk scientist, AMA wrote: »

I'm not sure what the current guidelines are for cows milk, sorry. Can I ask why you would prefer cows milk over formula? Because formula would be better nutritionally.

Baby can have small amounts of cows milk in food from 6 months and as a main drink from 12 months. Follow on milks and toddler mills are only deemed necessary if your child is a very fussy eater, otherwise cows milk (if not breastfeeding obviously) and a balanced diet are best.

donnapuppy

I'm an infant milk scientist, AMA wrote: »

It's been shown that the diet of the mother can influence milk quality, but not significantly. Nutrients preferentially enter breast milk so if Mum is any way deficient in anything, breast feeding is going to run her down pretty quickly.

Some women can't produce proper levels of milk and nobody really knows why.



Babies of mothers who require medication tend to be better off with formula, for obvious reasons. Also mothers with infectious diseases could put their baby at risk by breastfeeding.

Just to clarify
There are very few medications which mean mothers can't breastfeed and often alternatives can be found. Currentlyas regards infectious diseases HIV is the only contraindication to breastfeeding.

pwurple

I'm an infant milk scientist, AMA wrote: »

You can!

Two components of breast milk - the most abundant protein and the most abundant fatty acid - can combine to produce a complex called HAMLET. Yes, you read that correctly and we call the cow version BAMLET. Anyway! HAMLET has been shown to kill all types of cancer cell in vitro (so in the lab), without causing any damage to healthy, differentiated cells. It has been tested in humans for bladder cancer and skin cancer and has been incredibly effective.

It's about to start stage 2 trials in Sweden, they're just finalising a few of the details.

Currently the compound isn't active in blood, but when applied directly to tumours it kills them. It works in brain glioblastomas, bladder cancer and colon cancer in mice too, so scope for further research there. If you would like links to the articles I would be happy to oblige.

Oh and the compound has been shown to make MRSA lose its resistance to antibiotics, so they're researching that in New York currently.

My PhD focused on whether this compound could be formed in the stomach of breast fed infants - as the conditions in the tummy are ideal for the complex formation.

So whilst most people think Shakespeare when they hear HAMLET mentioned, I have other thoughts

Thanks, very interesting. Yes please links!

MountainAshIRL

I'm an infant milk scientist, AMA wrote: »

You can!

Two components of breast milk - the most abundant protein and the most abundant fatty acid - can combine to produce a complex called HAMLET. Yes, you read that correctly and we call the cow version BAMLET. Anyway! HAMLET has been shown to kill all types of cancer cell in vitro (so in the lab), without causing any damage to healthy, differentiated cells. It has been tested in humans for bladder cancer and skin cancer and has been incredibly effective.

It's about to start stage 2 trials in Sweden, they're just finalising a few of the details.

Currently the compound isn't active in blood, but when applied directly to tumours it kills them. It works in brain glioblastomas, bladder cancer and colon cancer in mice too, so scope for further research there. If you would like links to the articles I would be happy to oblige.

Oh and the compound has been shown to make MRSA lose its resistance to antibiotics, so they're researching that in New York currently.

My PhD focused on whether this compound could be formed in the stomach of breast fed infants - as the conditions in the tummy are ideal for the complex formation.

So whilst most people think Shakespeare when they hear HAMLET mentioned, I have other thoughts

I would love to see this research. What was the result of your PhD? Can they compound be formed in stomach of babies? Would this indicate that breastfeeding could be a preventative to childhood cancers?

painauchocolat

I would also love to see this research! Thanks again for all the time you've given over to this. It's a real treat to have access to evidence-based information that's not sponsored by a manufacturer

MountainAshIRL

Has there been or will there be clinical trials using hamlet?

cyning

I'm an infant milk scientist, AMA wrote: »

Babies of mothers who require medication tend to be better off with formula, for obvious reasons.

I'm just wondering about this... with the likes of Hale, lactmed etc there are certain medications that are contraindicated certainly like codeine. Is that what you are referring to? As most meds are considered safe or there is a safe alternative... or was your research pointing a different way?

I'm an infant milk scientist, AMA

donnapuppy wrote: »

Up to 5 days in a fridge is fine. I can't post links but if you google HSE breast milk storage you should get the information you need

Great - I wasn't aware of the HSE guidelines. I was only going on my own experience with the milk we used.

donnapuppy wrote: »

Just to clarify
There are very few medications which mean mothers can't breastfeed and often alternatives can be found. Currentlyas regards infectious diseases HIV is the only contraindication to breastfeeding.

Wow, that's interesting. Every day is a school day! I have been reading up a lot on infectious disease and I never knew that it was only HIV that passed into breast milk. And I'm only basing the medication based on what I read in my own medication - it's not something we ever would have looked at.

I'm an infant milk scientist, AMA

pwurple wrote: »

Thanks, very interesting. Yes please links!

MountainAshIRL wrote: »

I would love to see this research. What was the result of your PhD? Can they compound be formed in stomach of babies? Would this indicate that breastfeeding could be a preventative to childhood cancers?

painauchocolat wrote: »

I would also love to see this research! Thanks again for all the time you've given over to this. It's a real treat to have access to evidence-based information that's not sponsored by a manufacturer

MountainAshIRL wrote: »

Has there been or will there be clinical trials using hamlet?

Okay - using the multi-quote function here.

The result of my PhD was inconclusive :pac: When I was in the lab and did the experiments in vitro (where I simulated what goes on in babys tummy and upper small intestines), the complex was formed. However when we moved it into a human model we couldn't find the complex formed/intact. BUT this comes with the fact that the human model was adult humans - we couldn't secure ethics for babies to do the study on them. Which is fair enough, we were able to get adults to consent to getting nasogastric tubes inserted into their nose and into their tummy, but we wouldn't be able to do that to a baby when there's no medical need. So adult digestion is much, much different to infants digestion.

However it wasn't all in vain, we did discover a very interesting thing about adult digestion that we were able to publish.

As for a preventative effect... Excellent question. Alpha-lactalbumin was the subject of a study on a breast cancer vaccine, which was interesting. Linked here. However there haven't been any further updated publications on this recently.

However, I can't say too much as it is unpublished data from a group I know, but it appears that BAMLET can activate memory cells in the immune system, which could have a preventative effect, but that research is in very early stages.


This is a link to the Wikipedia entry on HAMLET. It's a bit sciencey, but it's a decent overview. The links to the relevant clinical studies:
Colon cancer study in mice - I have reservations on this one because mouse intestines are different to human intestines, but there is potential as a therapeutic.
Bladder cancer study in mice
Bladder cancer study in humans - small number of patients, but enough of a good result to warrant further studies, which are due to begin shortly.
Skin pappiloma virus study in humans - pre cancerous skin cancer
[url="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15026350]Human brain tumours transplanted into mice[/url]

Water John

Have you any opinions on A2 milk? Seems to have a significant place in Aurtralian liquid milk market. The don't make absolute claims but infer benefits??.
Without A1, should it be of benefit to some children.

cornflake1

I'm an infant milk scientist, AMA wrote: »

Could you link some of those articles? I can have a look at them and see whether they're from a reputable source.

In my (semi) limited experience, babies gut is "leaky" - but not in a bad way! When baby is born the intestinal wall has little gaps in it to allow for everything important to get into the blood stream. This closes up fairly rapidly - it varies from baby to baby but we're talking days. I can't see why any co-feeding with formula would cause allergies, to be honest. But I'll reserve judgment until I can read the articles.

I have read lots of articles on infant digestion. My project was on the potential formation of an anti cancer complex in the stomach of breast fed infants, so I know about the stomach. Unfortunately for this question, the protein I studied is resistant to digestion in the intestines so I didn't learn so much about that.

Thanks for this! Here are some of the articles.

http://www.thealphaparent.com/2011/07/virgin-gut-note-for-parents.html?m=1

https://www.hyperbiotics.com/blogs/recent-articles/109024966-the-importance-of-a-virgin-gut-breastfeeding-is-more-essential-than-we-thought

Rogueish

I'm an infant milk scientist, AMA wrote: »

Now I'm going to need some clarification on what you mean by tummy bugs - do you mean pukey and poos? Or do you mean the healthy bugs (gut microbiota) that we all have?

If you mean the former, it's to do with the immune system and infection control. Mum is unlikely to have any nasty bacteria on her skin, and any that she has baby will likely be immune to. So there's less risk of infection at source (for the want of a better expression - baby bottle teats can harbour bugs!). But also, breast milk can change its composition to meet the nutritional needs of baby. [B/] The nipple has sensors that can say "oh, baby has the sniffles, let's produce more lysozyme to kill that nasty bug", and breast milk also has higher concentrations of those bug busting proteins. [/B]

If you mean the latter, changes in the prebiotics in milk will impact the gut microbiota.

Many thanks for the AMA. It is really interesting especially since I have been exclusively pumping for my 5month old. So with that in mind can it be assumed that by introducing some of the baby's saliva to the nipple that it would cause the breast to produce milk with specifically tailored immune boosting chemicals? (I'm afraid that my baba wouldn't know what to do with a non silicone nipple at this stage without extensive 'retraining'!)

If this is so is the reaction time related ie. does the saliva (wet or dried in?) have to be in contact with the nipple over a specific amount of time to cause this effect?

Also how long (with regular exposure to the saliva) does it take to see a reactors effect in the milk produced?

jestfest

I'm an infant milk scientist, AMA wrote: »

Great - I wasn't aware of the HSE guidelines. I was only going on my own experience with the milk we used.



Wow, that's interesting. Every day is a school day! I have been reading up a lot on infectious disease and I never knew that it was only HIV that passed into breast milk. And I'm only basing the medication based on what I read in my own medication - it's not something we ever would have looked at.

It needs to be pointed out that HIV is contraindicated for breastfeeding in Ireland, as this is the HSE's policy. However, the CDC and WHO recommend morhers with HIV to breastfeed while taking retrovirals. It is seen as preferable to using formula.

I'm quite disappointed with the scope of this AMA. The expert has perpetuated quite a few well-known breastfeeding myths. The expert also appears to have strayed quite a few times outside of their area of expertise. It should also be noted that the promotion of first infant milks (even for the purposes of information) is against the parts of the WHO Code that have been legislated for in this country...if only all of it were implemented (it exists to protect all mothers and their babies whether they are formula fed or breastfed). FirstStepsNutrition is an excellent website which gives impartial information on the various types of formula, free from marketing spin. Thankfully some other posters have pointed out the "booby traps".

jestfest

Rogueish wrote: »

Many thanks for the AMA. It is really interesting especially since I have been exclusively pumping for my 5month old. So with that in mind can it be assumed that by introducing some of the baby's saliva to the nipple that it would cause the breast to produce milk with specifically tailored immune boosting chemicals? (I'm afraid that my baba wouldn't know what to do with a non silicone nipple at this stage without extensive 'retraining'!)

If this is so is the reaction time related ie. does the saliva (wet or dried in?) have to be in contact with the nipple over a specific amount of time to cause this effect?

Also how long (with regular exposure to the saliva) does it take to see a reactors effect in the milk produced?

The saliva gets drawn into the nipple to reach those receptors during feeding at the breast. It's an interesting theory to try doing it while pumping by putting babies saliva onto your own nipple...but there are easier ways that your body can become aware of antibodies that your baby may need mom to produce. Kissing your baby's hands exposes you to the bacteria your baby has been exposed to and is putting into their mouth, your body will also respond to this. Skin-to-skin is another area that has yet to be fully understood, and there are some theories about mothers' bodies also being able to sense the health needs of their child when placed skin-to-skin and the breasts respond accordingly. When your baby has a blocked nose (this is gross but works) sucking out the snot to clear the nose is another way to get you exposed to what bacteria is present...and it clears their nose quickly...but yeh it's gross 😂 You are amazing to be an exclusive pumper, your baby is very lucky.

jestfest

When making a bottle according to the HSE guidelines, using cooled boiled water (70 degrees celsius), does this destroy the prebiotics and probiotics in the formula? I know it must be that temperature to kill the bacteria present in the powder.

I'm an infant milk scientist, AMA

Rogueish wrote: »

Many thanks for the AMA. It is really interesting especially since I have been exclusively pumping for my 5month old. So with that in mind can it be assumed that by introducing some of the baby's saliva to the nipple that it would cause the breast to produce milk with specifically tailored immune boosting chemicals? (I'm afraid that my baba wouldn't know what to do with a non silicone nipple at this stage without extensive 'retraining'!)

If this is so is the reaction time related ie. does the saliva (wet or dried in?) have to be in contact with the nipple over a specific amount of time to cause this effect?

Also how long (with regular exposure to the saliva) does it take to see a reactors effect in the milk produced?

Jestfest has answered this post more eloquently than I ever could

I'm an infant milk scientist, AMA

jestfest wrote: »

It needs to be pointed out that HIV is contraindicated for breastfeeding in Ireland, as this is the HSE's policy. However, the CDC and WHO recommend morhers with HIV to breastfeed while taking retrovirals. It is seen as preferable to using formula.

I'm quite disappointed with the scope of this AMA. The expert has perpetuated quite a few well-known breastfeeding myths. The expert also appears to have strayed quite a few times outside of their area of expertise. It should also be noted that the promotion of first infant milks (even for the purposes of information) is against the parts of the WHO Code that have been legislated for in this country...if only all of it were implemented (it exists to protect all mothers and their babies whether they are formula fed or breastfed). FirstStepsNutrition is an excellent website which gives impartial information on the various types of formula, free from marketing spin. Thankfully some other posters have pointed out the "booby traps".

Thanks for your comments. I apologise if I misled anyone in any of my responses, however I have said if something has been outside the scope of my knowledge. As was explicitly stated in the OP, my knowledge is on a strictly scientific base - differences in milk composition over time, potential other benefits of breast milk. Any comments that I have made have been through my own experience with breast milk and with infant formula as a scientist in a lab. I also don't think that I have plugged one type of milk over another - or put any marketing spin on things.

If you would like to point out some of the myths I am perpetuating I would be happy to discuss my way of thinking of things and to provide links to any research that I have consulted.

I'm an infant milk scientist, AMA

Water John wrote: »

Have you any opinions on A2 milk? Seems to have a significant place in Aurtralian liquid milk market. The don't make absolute claims but infer benefits??.
Without A1, should it be of benefit to some children.

I had never heard of A1 or A2 milk. Looking into it the changes are based on casein levels in milk. It would be similar to the pre-hydrolysed formula for babies that can't tolerate all proteins. It is unlikely to have any better health benefits over a different type of milk, however I don't really know enough about casein to comment. My work was almost exclusively on the whey fraction of milk.

Next time you're in your local supermarket check out lullaby milk. Researchers discovered that cows that are milked at night have a higher level of an amino acid called tryptophan in it. Tryptophan is a precursor to serotonin in the body, so it acts on serotonin pathways to aid sleep.

One thing of note. Turkey has high levels of tryptophan. So we have an explanation for the reason we all sleep after our Christmas dinner - not the volume of the food and alcohol, it's the tryptophan!

So I'm guessing someone has similar research around the different types of casein too.

I'm an infant milk scientist, AMA

jestfest wrote: »

When making a bottle according to the HSE guidelines, using cooled boiled water (70 degrees celsius), does this destroy the prebiotics and probiotics in the formula? I know it must be that temperature to kill the bacteria present in the powder.

To the best of my knowledge that is to make sure that the water has no contamination in it as much as anything - babies haven't got the same resistance to some of the bugs present in water as adults do. Even though there are strict guidelines on the allowable levels of CFUs in water, they could be too high for baby to tolerate.

As for the destruction of prebiotic and probiotic... when infant formula is produced it goes through many different processing techniques including pasteurisation, homogenisation and spray drying. These processes would be more damaging to the probiotics (& proteins) than any boiled water.

oreganda

I just want to add my thanks for this really interesting topic. I don't think you have been promoting formula over breastfeeding, rather giving the facts and on various occasions pointed out the huge advantages of breastmilk over formula. This is said as a breastfeeding mother.

Thanks once again. I was sad to reach the end of the thread!

bp

I second the above, thank you for your time and the information. I am past breastfeeding/ bottle feeding but the information regarding your research was such an interesting read. Good luck with future studies

Neyite

Mod

Hello all - our guest has dashed off a quick pm to me to explain that she has drafts of responses to some more unanswered questions but hasn't had a chance to post them yet as real life got a tad hectic the last few days.

She'll be back so the thread ain't over just yet

Neyite

Mod:

Crsf88, If you have an issue with the thread, you can report it and mods will deal with it accordingly. Your first post on this thread was deleted for good reason. Your second one, for your posting style, and accusations without providing any links to support your scientific statements.

If you post a third in the same vein, I will issue you with a yellow card.

I'm an infant milk scientist, AMA

crsf88 wrote: »

First off id like to say that I hope this milk expert knows its against the WHO Policy regarding advertisement of breastmilk replacement to encourage use of first stage infant milks, secondly i want to point out that there is no extra tryptophan in lullaby milk, there is extra melatonin in lullaby milk, which is the hormone necessary for our bodies to regulate sleep cycles. Its only produced at night time as a response to a lack of sunlight which is why these cows are milked at night. Simply reading the container of lullaby milk will tell you that. Melatonin should only be used when advised by a doctor and melatonin is also produced in breastmilk which is why night feeds are so important for developing sleep cycles. There is a lot of misinformation in this thread coming from a so called scientist its very very worrying.

Hi there.

I'm not sure what the issue is to be honest. Nowhere have I advertised any infant formula over breast milk.

And I also never claimed to be an expert on milk. I am a research scientist. I carried out a lot of research (5+ years) on proteins and fatty acids in milk, and the survival of probiotics in milks through the gastrointestinal tract.

Apologies also, I misinterpreted the lullaby milk. It is melatonin. Not tryptophan. However the other thing about tryptophan is true.

But I would like to ask you to point out the misinformation so that I can correct myself.

Also not too keen on the "so called scientist" part. I am a scientist. I am not an expert in the field of breast feeding, nor am I an expert in the field of milk formula, feeding regulations and WHO guidelines regarding what to feed your baby. All I have done is answer questions of a scientific nature and following up my responses with links. I don't appreciate my profession getting called into question.

So, please, provide some examples of the misinformation that I have provided.