Offaly International Airport - Part II

LeChienMefiant

Apologies if there is another thread on this, but the latest I see is from 2011. Which is here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056002388

The plan has been in the media again this week...
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/proposed-offaly-international-airport-to-name-backers-in-weeks-1.2847390

TheFitz13

Ireland has much too many airports as it is. This airport is so not needed. People will much rather fly to DUB if that's their intended destination, not Offaly. Waste of money if you ask me, Money could be used to expand DUB

JCX BXC

I'd say putting €500mil into DUB rather than some fantasy airport in the midlands would go much further than deliver 2 million pax.

LeChienMefiant

Is this proposed primarily as a cargo hub?

JCX BXC

What's wrong with the current Cargo ops focused at DUB and SNN?

LeChienMefiant

DUB Infrastructure thread suggests capacity problems for cargo. I'm not particularly knowledgeable on the topic but saw the article and was interested. Half a billion definitely seems like a lot when London City not to long ago (pre-Brexit mind) went for £2 billion and it has over 4 million pax per year. With substantial cargo ops it might make more sense?

JCX BXC

LCY is an airport in central london though and is unique in itself. It is a high yield airport too and can easily charge more in charges than a Ryanair fare to the UK, which won't compare to the €1-€2 charge that this offaly airport will likely charge.

All I can see the airport doing is damaging Dublin's hub potential and making a loss, why would the existing cargo operators switch?

Waste of an investment IMO, can't see it making any sence whatsoever.

LeChienMefiant

Hence why half a billion pumped into Offaly for 2 million pax would be poor value for money.

JCX BXC

LeChienMefiant wrote: »

Hence why half a billion pumped into Offaly for 2 million pax would be poor value for money.

Exactly, of course it is private investors money but still I can't see a business case.

Donal55

Carnacalla wrote: »

I'd say putting €500mil into DUB rather than some fantasy airport in the midlands would go much further than deliver 2 million pax.

Time to break out those 'Welcome to Parlon Country' posters again.

LeChienMefiant

It was reportedly linked to the rumoured massive Chinese investment in Athlone when it was first discussed. Not a lot of substance yet.

Locker10a

The money would be better spent improving road and rail networks between our current cities and airports

LeChienMefiant

Locker10a wrote: »

The money would be better spent improving road and rail networks between our current cities and airports

It's reportedly private capital, if it exists.

Right in the heart of military airspace yeah that'll work out well.

Locker10a

Deleted User wrote: »

Right in the heart of military airspace yeah that'll work out well.

There's military airspace in Ireland ???????

b757

Deleted User wrote: »

Right in the heart of military airspace yeah that'll work out well.

MOA's that are rarely active..

Negative_G

b757 wrote: »

MOA's that are rarely active..

MOA4 is active to varying levels on a regular basis, albeit mostly during working hours.

MOA5 to a lesser degree and MOA3 which I've never heard of being activated.

JCX BXC

I've heard the military area being active a few times on DUB ATC.

Locker10a

Negative_G wrote: »

b757 wrote: »

MOA's that are rarely active..

MOA4 is active to varying levels on a regular basis, albeit mostly during working hours.

MOA5 to a lesser degree and MOA3 which I've never heard of being activated.

Forgive me here, but what exactly would the Irish military or Aer Corp be doing in this said airspace ? Which I'd never heard of untill tonight !!

billie1b

Locker10a wrote: »

Forgive me here, but what exactly would the Irish military or Aer Corp be doing in this said airspace ? Which I'd never heard of untill tonight !!

Training, teaching cadets to fly, practising manoeuvring, loads of different things

kub

This is a joke, we have enough airports in this country as it is. Shannon has excess capacity and excellent infastructure for cargo operations. I am sure they would welcome investors.

Galway airport and Waterford airport being prime examples of wishful thinking.

737max

Offaly airport would be convenient for me but I know there would be no sustainable flight operations from there even with heavy subsidisation.

About the only additional viable airport I could see being built would be at Casement aerodrome in that it would relive stress on the greater Dublin infrastructure, have a ready captive audience including people travelling 28km less from the south with a relatively inexpensive means of hooking it up to a light rail connection to the centre of Dublin.
An airport there could have sustainable unsubsidised connections links to the major cities in the UK and Western Europe. It might never make money but it would be an asset to Dublin and the Country.

Offaly Airport would exist never turning a profit seeking out some institutional investor with more money than sense and most institutional investors have seen others being burnt investing in the sure thing which is a ghost airport.

We've all flown in to and out of enough wretched near abandoned airports to see any future for an Offaly International Aiport.

JCX BXC

I can't see Casement airport with scheduled services do anything but damage DUB.

Why do we need to relieve stress on anything? Dublin airport isn't at capacity or even near it, the M50 is very busy twice a day for a short period!

Building routes at DUB is what should be focused on, not moving them to other new airports.

737max

An airport to the south west of Dublin is somewhat sustainable and of sufficient quantifiable benefit to the people in Ireland
An airport in Offaly is not.
I could see a very cheap terminal\airport Casement Aerodrome being attractive enough to sustain a daily flight to London, Edinburgh, Manchester, Birmingham, Paris, Frankfurt, Rome, Madrid and Berlin.
The discussion isn't even on the agenda at national level; the only public connection to the existing airport is by bus.
divide 25 million by 365 and know that the most important flights leave Dublin Airport between 7 and 9 in the morning and you can see that the airport is throwing thousands of extra cars on to the M50 and roads around north Dublin. It is barely coping now. It will not improve with more passengers per year.

I offered to collect someone from Frankfurt airport on Friday and they declined as they said they be happier travelling the 100km by Train which departs every few minutes from the train station in the Airport.
The M50 and M1 will only get more clogged and the Government are doing nothing to improve connectivity to the existing Dublin Airport.
If you arrive in to Dublin after 8 in the evening you are not getting anywhere down the country outside of Cork or Galway city by public transport.

A Casement Aerodrome passenger airport would knock 28km off the trip from the south to an airport serving major European cities. It would take strain off infrastructure in the greater Dublin area and actually serve to increase service on some tram and bus lines.
Of course at that stage others can say "that is one way to do it, but perhaps we should improve the existing airport's connectivity and maybe add a terminal too" but nobody in official Ireland is doing that.

Ireland is a remote Island and needs to be connected to the world. The Government is not doing strategic planning so people get excited about "pie in the sky" projects like Offaly airport.

newacc2015

I find it ridiculous that Irish Rail is willing to spur the Dublin to Galway rail line for a group of private investors, yet wouldnt ensure that two of its largest stations in the largest city in Ireland which is heavily congested is fully linked together ie they are content with the Dart Underground going no where. Maybe Irish Rail folding in a few years isnt a total loss to the tax payer, as they clearly have no priorities or objectives as is.

Dublin isnt even an expensive airport to fly from. Why would the millions who live in Dublin City trek for a hour to 90 mins to Offaly to save €10-15 on a return flight only have to hand Irish Rail probably about €30-40 for a return ticket to the airport?

I think even an ordinary level business student doing his level cert could see this proposal is seriously flawed.

Pat Dunne

Carnacalla wrote: »

the M50 is very busy twice a day for a short period.

Only this week, Transport Infrastructure Ireland, stated that "Rush Hour" now lasts for up to 8 hours a day on the M50! http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/dublins-m50-is-used-for-eight-hours-of-rush-hour-traffic-a-day-760750.html
http://www.98fm.com/M50-Rush-Hour-Now-Lasts-8-Hours-
http://www.newstalk.com/Rush-hour-is-getting-longer-as-Dublins-M50-sees-eight-hours-per-day

JCX BXC

Traffic has moved well on the M50 everytime I've been on it other than between around 6pm.

A new airport isn't the solution to this either!

737max

Carnacalla wrote: »

Traffic has moved well on the M50 everytime I've been on it other than between around 6pm.

A new airport isn't the solution to this either!

How do you think people from Connaught, Munster and South Leinster are getting to the existing airport? Train? Plane? How many of the 25 or so million people/journeys using the airport don't get out of North Dublin on something other than highly congested road infrastructure.
A new airport is a possible solution to a very real problem which isn't being discussed.

JCX BXC

737max wrote: »

How do you think people from Connaught, Munster and South Leinster are getting to the existing airport? Train? Plane? How many of the 25 or so million people/journeys using the airport don't get out of North Dublin on something other than highly congested road infrastructure.
A new airport is a possible solution to a very real problem which isn't being discussed.

There is so much wrong about that statement I don't know where to begin:(

Thrashssacre

Theres no need for another airport in ireland. This was shown by galway, waterford and sligo airports all shutting down they all had as much or a population to tap into as this offally airport would. If this is built all it will do is take short haul traffic away from dublin making it a less attactive hub meaning it will lose long haul routes such as hartford as it relies on passengers traveling on from dublin

Pat Dunne

Carnacalla wrote: »

Traffic has moved well on the M50 everytime I've been on it other than between around 6pm.

A new airport isn't the solution to this either!

I commute on the M50 on a daily basis and it to say that it is "Hell on Earth" from 6:30am to 10:30am and then from 4:00pm to 8:00pm on your average day is an understatement. Throw in an accident for good measure, such as the recent 6 vehicle collision and the whole circus becomes complete and utter gridlocked chaos.

Pat Dunne

Carnacalla wrote: »

There is so much wrong about that statement I don't know where to begin:(

You took the words completely out of my mouth, when I read your original M50 "short period" comment!

JCX BXC

My last flight in August meant me arriving at the airport at 6:30pm, traffic from where I entered the M50 at the red cow to the airport was flowing well.

That's besides the point, €500mil would do a lot more to erridicate road delays than a new airport would solve any woes!

Pat Dunne

Carnacalla wrote: »

My last flight in August meant me arriving at the airport at 6:30pm, traffic from where I entered the M50 at the red cow to the airport was flowing well.

That's besides the point, €500mil would do a lot more to erridicate road delays than a new airport would solve any woes!

Yes, August when most of the country is on holidays. Try doing it next Tuesday evening and then you will know all about it!

Anyway that's my last word on this particular matter.

737max

Thrashssacre wrote: »

Theres no need for another airport in ireland.

Ireland is a big country. The operators of Cork, Shannon, two Belfast airports, Kerry and Derry would have been greeted with the same response if their airports weren't in prior existence.
As an operator of Dublin Airport deciding to add 15 million of extra capacity to Dublin Airport knowing that the Airport won't be paying the cost of improving the infrastructure to move people in and out of the airport would be a very selfish thing to do and that is where a government with vision not susceptible to lobbying by vested interests should take control.

JCX BXC

Pat Dunne wrote: »

Yes, August when most of the country is on holidays. Try doing it next Tuesday evening and then you will know all about it!

Anyway that's my last word on this particular matter.

Funny you mention it! Because I will be.

But you'd have to agree that the thought of building an airport to erridicate delays on a motorway is laughable.

JCX BXC

737max wrote: »

Ireland is a big country. The operators of Cork, Shannon, two Belfast airports, Kerry and Derry would have been greeted with the same response if their airports weren't in prior existence.
As an operator of Dublin Airport deciding to add 15 million of extra capacity to Dublin Airport knowing that the Airport won't be paying the cost of improving the infrastructure to move people in and out of the airport would be a very selfish thing to do and that is where a government with vision not susceptible to lobbying by vested interests should take control.

There is no need for half of them airports that you've listed!

Cork and Shannon would have certainly been okay, knock maybe less so, Kerry, Derry, Waterford, Donegal and one of the two Belfast airports have no real business sence.

As I explained earlier, look at Atlanta, small city, major hub. Why? One airport, so loads of connections. This compares with New York, major city, not so major hub (in comparison), 3 airports, connections not as good.

AMS, FRA, MUC, MAD, LIS, all as successful as they are because of them being a single airport in a city.

737max

Carnacalla wrote: »

Funny you mention it! Because I will be.

But you'd have to agree that the thought of building an airport to erridicate delays on a motorway is laughable.

Oooh trigger words like "laughable". You are intentionally trolling.
Airstrip already exists convenient to a large population centre. Land can be retasked/acquired for the public interest.

The objective is to make the City and Country a working functional system be that by the addition of additional terminal and capacity at existing airport or working on a site which is just beside a light rail link and already upgraded motorway to relieve stress on what is undeniably an overstressed piece of public infrastructure.

Either you can't think out of the box or you don't wish to think out of the box.

737max

Carnacalla wrote: »

There is no need for half of them airports that you've listed!

Cork and Shannon would have certainly been okay, knock maybe less so, Kerry, Derry, Waterford, Donegal and one of the two Belfast airports have no real business sence.

If we pursued the Dogma that you have appropriated there wouldn't even be a Belfast, Cork and Shannon airport and that is the salient point.

JCX BXC

737max wrote: »

Oooh trigger words like "laughable". You are intentionally trolling.
Airstrip already exists convenient to a large population centre. Land can be retasked/acquired for the public interest.

The objective is to make the City and Country a working functional system be that by the addition of additional terminal and capacity at existing airport or working on a site which is just beside a light rail link and already upgraded motorway to relieve stress on what is undeniably an overstressed piece of public infrastructure.

Either you can't think out of the box or you don't wish to think out of the box.

So you reject the point about completely undermining the HUB position that DUB has finally managed to grow?

Do you reject the point that €500 million would serve the country much better on M50 improvements/other transport improvements than a completely unneeded airport?

How do you expect the two airports not to have a competitive relationship?

Cookiemunster

737max wrote: »

Ireland is a big country.

No it not. It's a small sparsely populated (outside Dublin) island.

LeChienMefiant

Carnacalla wrote: »

That's besides the point, €500mil would do a lot more to erridicate road delays than a new airport would solve any woes!

The money is not available for roads, Dublin Airport or anything else. It's private capital.

737max

Carnacalla wrote: »

So you reject the point about completely undermining the HUB position that DUB has finally managed to grow?

Do you reject the point that €500 million would serve the country much better on M50 improvements/other transport improvements than a completely unneeded airport?

How do you expect the two airports not to have a competitive relationship?

I do expect the airports to be somewhat competitive to the benefit of the public.
500 million goes absolutely nowhere these days if you are talking about building rail, light rail, brand new runways and motorways. If 500m was enough to solve all the problems with Dublin area then the decision would probably be to keep it and upgrade.
When you find that you have in public ownership an airstrip long enough to accommodate single aisle jet aircraft very close to large centres of population which is just a short spur away from a light rail system, adjacent to an upgraded motorway and 3km from the nearest conventional rail network station you really need to step back and question what is in the best interests of the public?
To shout down those who believe that Dublin Aiport shouldn't remain the only game in town is selfish or arrogant.
The amount of jobs created at a second airport would easily match the amounts that would be created by making Dublin Airport a hub airport and it is disingenuous to suggest that another airports existence will kill Dublin's chances of becoming a hub airport.
London Heathrow cares not a jot about what happens in Luton beyond the fact that it takes a few million passengers fees and landing fees from London Heathrow.

737max

Cookiemunster wrote: »

No it not. It's a small sparsely populated (outside Dublin) island.

one third the size of the UK. imagine if everyone on that Island was forced to fly through Heathrow. They don't have this problem due to having so many ex RAF air strips which got transformed in to airports.

If DAA existed early in the Republic's history there would be no Cork airport or Shannon Airport as DAA would have driven policy to their own benefit.

Thrashssacre

737max wrote: »

Ireland is a big country. The operators of Cork, Shannon, two Belfast airports, Kerry and Derry would have been greeted with the same response if their airports weren't in prior existence.
As an operator of Dublin Airport deciding to add 15 million of extra capacity to Dublin Airport knowing that the Airport won't be paying the cost of improving the infrastructure to move people in and out of the airport would be a very selfish thing to do and that is where a government with vision not susceptible to lobbying by vested interests should take control.

These airports were built at a time where it would have taken twice the time to get to dublin if not more from any of those locations and im not sure if 2 belfast airports was a good idea as they have limited flights from both and are being swallowed alive by DUB

Cookiemunster

737max wrote: »

one third the size of the UK. imagine if everyone on that Island was forced to fly through Heathrow. They don't have this problem due to having so many ex RAF air strips which got transformed in to airports.

If DAA existed at early in the Republic's history there would be no Cork airport or Shannon Airport as DAA would have driven policy to their own benefit.

One third the size with a population less than one tenth. We're a tiny country with only one major population centre. The UK is a small county too, but it is heavily over populated.

LeChienMefiant

Cookiemunster wrote: »

One third the size with a population less than one tenth. We're a tiny country with only one major population centre. The UK is a small county too, but it is heavily over populated.

We seem to hold our own when it comes to departures, i.e. proportionate to our size.

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/File:Overview_of_EU-28_air_passenger_transport_by_Member_States_in_2014_-_passengers_carried_(in_1000).png

UK departure tax must be making Ireland more attractive too.

yew_tree

Carnacalla wrote: »

As I explained earlier, look at Atlanta, small city, major hub. Why? One airport, so loads of connections. This compares with New York, major city, not so major hub (in comparison), 3 airports, connections not as good.

The Atlanta metro area has a population of 5.5 million. Hardly class that as small city.

JCX BXC

yew_tree wrote: »

The Atlanta metro area has a population of 5.5 million. Hardly class that as small city.

Read my earlier explanation, I referred to it as a small city in World terms, which it is.

737max

You are being very misleading there. Dublin is a moderately small city but what distinguishes it is that it is a moderately small isolated city.
I know loads of small cities that don't have a single large airport much less multiple ones but they are on Continents and connected by excellent roads and rail to the rest of the continent and to other cities which do have large airports.
If I wanted to get to Berlin I'd take the car or train, not plane. It is a similar distance away from me as Dublin is from London. If I was really price concious I'd take the Bus for 10 to 15 euro.

This says that Frankfurt Main has more than half of the passengers just using it as a hub so that leaves 30 million passengers from a highly populous part of Germany originating in that highly populous part of Germany. Why not more passengers seeing that there are so many people living nearby.
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/09/14/travel/frankfurt-airport-infographic-numbers/

Transfer traffic is tiny at Dublin Airport but the DAA is chasing it even though it doesn't help much to get locals out of the country or visitors in to the country.
In my opinion they can chase it all they want as long as it doesn't impact on other areas of business which are in the public interest
Tell me that this isn't hurting Ireland:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=101514513&postcount=2239
stands for 189 seater flights filled to brim day in day out are being set aside for what?

Tell me that this collection of industry insiders, politically appointed sycophants and union appointees have the vision to guide the airport toward the best interests of the citizens of Ireland.
http://www.daa.ie/our-company/our-team/

I'd like a second airport to the south of Dublin serving Europe. Others would like a Terminal 3. I like redundancy in general so I want a second airport.
Instead we get pie in the sky about an airport in the middle of nowhere.
Our Government is not serving us well by failing to provide critical infrastructure to ensure the continued wealth and productivity of the Country.

... and in the meantime we get excited about an unsustainable airport down in the bogland of Offaly.

TheCockpitGuy

Carnacalla wrote: »

My last flight in August meant me arriving at the airport at 6:30pm, traffic from where I entered the M50 at the red cow to the airport was flowing well.!

Spoken like someone that does not encounter M50 traffic on a daily basis but is used to 2 tractors meeting on the road to cause a traffic jam!! :rolleyes: