Teaching Computing / Computer Science

paddyfulham

Hi all
Just looking for some information in regards to teaching in Ireland. I am currently teaching in London and have been teaching Computing (now Computer Science) in secondary school for 6 years. I am head of department and manage 4 other staff. I trained in the UK and done a PGCE. I am from Armagh, but plan to move back to Ireland (most likely Dublin) in the next 18 months.
What are the chances of me getting a role in Dublin? I know Computer Science isn't widely taught in Ireland but I have read recently that it is going to be introduced. Do you think most schools will just train a member of staff to teach it as opposed to employing an actual CS teacher?
Will my teaching qualifications be OK to use in Ireland?
Thanks

Notorious

paddyfulham wrote: »

I know Computer Science isn't widely taught in Ireland but I have read recently that it is going to be introduced. Do you think most schools will just train a member of staff to teach it as opposed to employing an actual CS teacher?
Will my teaching qualifications be OK to use in Ireland?

As a second level teacher who also teaches programming to FE students, I've wondered about this myself. So far there's no schools who teach Computer Science, but it looks like it'll be on the curriculum in a few years. Some of the bigger schools (who most likely aren't state funded), do have small computer departments who look after IT and facilitate the ECDL.

I cannot imagine there are many qualified computer scientists who would forego a well paid job in the computer industry for a career as a teacher. Keeping that in mind, I think the department will offer current teachers the chance to upskill in order to provide the course which has been suggested.

I think 18 months is too soon for said program to be introduced into schools. Have you another subject that you are qualified to teach?

Crazyteacher

What I've experienced is that IT is usually taught by teachers with gaps on their timetable. They usually have ECDL or a natural aptitude for computing. You will find it tough to get work in teaching unless you pick up another subject.

paddyfulham

Thanks for the replies. My only other subject I teach is Multimedia Design at GCSE level. I am also in charge of ECDL as well. What options would I have if I wanted to teach in Ireland? A higher level such as college +16?

Thanks

Crazyteacher

You could apply for further education type jobs eg. The institutes of further education in the ETB sector. Multimedia isn't on the junior or leaving cert curriculum but it's in most further education colleges. See an example below . Best to get your name on the different ETB panels.

https://www.ballsbridgecollege.com/courses/

r93kaey5p2izun

Even if CS is introduced as a full subject you could never make a full job out of it in 99% of schools. Without a strong second subject I don't think it would ever be viable to work at second level. You could look at teaching QQI modules.

paddyfulham

Today the government have announced that Computer Science will be added to the Leaving Cert and that there is going to be a much bigger focus on STEM subjects. I have done a lot of work with STEM as well.
Do you think this will help my chances of getting a role at all?

Thanks

evolving_doors

paddyfulham wrote: »

Today the government have announced that Computer Science will be added to the Leaving Cert and that there is going to be a much bigger focus on STEM subjects. I have done a lot of work with STEM as well.
Do you think this will help my chances of getting a role at all?

Thanks

Has the curriculum even been designed yet... Between that and training it'll be about 4 years down the line I'd say!

spurious

Not to mention equipment issues.

byhookorbycrook

paddyfulham wrote: »

Today the government have announced that Computer Science will be added to the Leaving Cert and that there is going to be a much bigger focus on STEM subjects. I have done a lot of work with STEM as well.
Do you think this will help my chances of getting a role at all?

Thanks

From the RTE site:
"It is one of a number of recommendations made in a new report aimed at improving the teaching of the so-called STEM subjects of science, technology, engineering and maths in primary and second-level schools.
Minister Richard Bruton said today he had set 2019 as a target for the introduction of the new subject in schools."

The_Valeyard

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Has the curriculum even been designed yet... Between that and training it'll be about 4 years down the line I'd say!

I cant see many schools taking it up initially.

1) staffing issues.

2) Computer rooms constantly faulty

3) more money for coders in Private Sector

dory

To get an idea of how things may go for CS at Leaving cert have a look at the new Politics and Society course. There are currently either 41 or 43 teachers of the new course. So possibly something similar for CS at the beginning. At LC level it'll probably have 4 classes a week, maybe 5. So that's 10 periods filled. You'd need something to fill the other 23.

mtoutlemonde

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

From the RTE site:
"It is one of a number of recommendations made in a new report aimed at improving the teaching of the so-called STEM subjects of science, technology, engineering and maths in primary and second-level schools.
Minister Richard Bruton said today he had set 2019 as a target for the introduction of the new subject in schools."

From my reading of thejournal.ie's piece - it looks like it will be rolled out at primary level first - as if the primary teachers hadn't enough to teach.
http://www.thejournal.ie/coding-irish-curriculum-3099021-Nov2016/

I have said with a few years - IT is an important skill and if designed and implemented properly would greatly improve mathematical thinking.

With relation to implementation - the majority of coding environments are free to use and don't require expensive top of the range computers. Aspects such as software engineering/logic methods don't require computers at all and there is a lot more than coding in IT.

I also believe that something should be done to get more students into languages as the two go hand in hand and there is a scarcity of graduates in languages.

paddyfulham

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Has the curriculum even been designed yet... Between that and training it'll be about 4 years down the line I'd say!

I cant see many schools taking it up initially.

1) staffing issues.

2) Computer rooms constantly faulty

3) more money for coders in Private Sector

Do schools in Ireland not have dedicated computer rooms? If they are managed properly and someone is left in charge then they are not constantly faulty. We have about 300 desktops, laptops and tablets in my school. The desktops are normally all in working order. The laptops, not so much, as non computing specialist teachers use them and tend not to report the faults when they are not working or have been damaged.

solerina

paddyfulham wrote: »

Do schools in Ireland not have dedicated computer rooms? If they are managed properly and someone is left in charge then they are not constantly faulty. We have about 300 desktops, laptops and tablets in my school. The desktops are normally all in working order. The laptops, not so much, as non computing specialist teachers use them and tend not to report the faults when they are not working or have been damaged.

We have about 30 desktops for the entire school, about half of these currently are not working, if we can't fix themselves they will stay broken. No laptops other than those privately owned. We do have one dedicated computer room but it's always booked up.

xtralong

Let's hope this ends the (mal)practice of IT being used as a timetable filler for any teacher that can switch on a computer and load up PowerPoint.

evolving_doors

However well meaning and promising it sounds, there is in fact ZERO substance to this news fluff.

What exactly has been/will be done to get this up and running?. (Apart from 'writing to the NCCA' asking about introducing it at Primary level last july).

The opening comment from The Journal.ie says it all




Computer Science is going to be a Leaving Cert subject · TheJournal.ie.jpg

man_no_plan

I think it has a place as an option at LC. No more than some kids would hate doing home ec or biology or construction or music many would also hate coding or comp science.

There should beva bit of room on the timetable in junior cycle for a bit of tricking around with coding in an interesting / non exam way, let kids make up their minds and then specialise in LC.

It's not for the masses but coder dojo etc have shown how it can work with kids helping each other along and creating their own knowledge. Once they get hooked they will be willing to put in the hard graft to learn the languages. Starting straight into hardcore coding is sure to turn many off.

evolving_doors

man_no_plan wrote: »

I think it has a place as an option at LC. No more than some kids would hate doing home ec or biology or construction or music many would also hate coding or comp science.

There should beva bit of room on the timetable in junior cycle for a bit of tricking around with coding in an interesting / non exam way, let kids make up their minds and then specialise in LC.

It's not for the masses but coder dojo etc have shown how it can work with kids helping each other along and creating their own knowledge. Once they get hooked they will be willing to put in the hard graft to learn the languages. Starting straight into hardcore coding is sure to turn many off.

But the news reports just mentioned his intention to make it an option at LC, there was no mention of the JC. This is why I think it's all spoof. Will it just be an 'introductory course', this would have implications as to what type of teacher will teach it and depth of exploration ... So if it's just an introductory course they'll be looking at running incervices aimed at maths teachers (would that be fair to assume?).
How was the Politics course piloted, Was that mainly taken up by history teachers?

mumzboyz

Hi, I've only come across this thread now but I'm curious if an unqualified teacher who is a software developer could teach these courses in both the JC & LC streams.

mtoutlemonde

mumzboyz wrote: »

Hi, I've only come across this thread now but I'm curious if an unqualified teacher who is a software developer could teach these courses in both the JC & LC streams.

No because as you say - you are unqualified.

mumzboyz

Thanks for that!

Crazyteacher

mumzboyz wrote: »

Hi, I've only come across this thread now but I'm curious if an unqualified teacher who is a software developer could teach these courses in both the JC & LC streams.

Unfortunately not. You would need to be a fully qualified teacher . As you will read in the posts above, it's often a filler subject for teachers qualified in other subject areas. Often not the teachers choice to take IT but if they only had a timetable of 21hours, they'd be very glad of it. Teaching at post primary is a very precarious career. Many teachers on contracts of two hours a week.

mtoutlemonde

So it has been released - ICT will be a Leaving Certificate subject from 2018.

http://education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2017-Press-Releases/PR17-06-19.html

I think it is about time, if not a little too late. I'm looking forward to seeing a curriculum.

My only concern, who is going to teach this course as I don't think there would be many Teaching Council registered teachers and when and for how long would training be? I have a worry that the situation would arise similar to the science teachers teaching maths and the maths teachers teaching ICT 'out of field'.

Any thoughts?

evolving_doors

Yup it's eat my hat time. I didn't think it would go ahead!

UCD are rolling out a blended postgrad dip, funded by microsoft for just a few teachers though. And it's not restricted to the STEM teacher either
I think they are looking for pilot schools so you'd probably have to get the go ahead from your principal, otherwise I reckon you might have to pay yourself if you go it alone.

Here's the flier.

also a conference in Dublin Castle if yer into that type of thing.
World Conference in Computers in Education: 3rd – 6th July in the Printworks Conference Hall, Dublin Castle. Hosted by the Irish Computer Society.
Further in fo here!

mtoutlemonde

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Yup it's eat my hat time. (I didn't think it would go ahead!)

UCD are rolling out a blended postgrad dip (funded by microsoft for just a few teachers though... )

Here's the flier.

Thanks for that - it gives an idea of what could be on the syllabus. I wouldn't mind doing it to upskill as its been a while since I coded etc. I remember when I did my degree, the lecturers said that by the time we finished, we would probably have to start again with all the changes in technology.

evolving_doors

I remember doing coding in school

10 Print "Ha Ha!"
20 Goto 10
Run

In fairness they were fairly forward thinking in our school and had a few getting good careers in programming in the early 90's

mtoutlemonde

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I remember doing coding in school

10 Print "Ha Ha!"
20 Goto 10
Run

In fairness they were fairly forward thinking in our school and had a few getting good careers in programming in the early 90's

You trump me - I don't think my IT teacher would have known what code was when I was in school. We had one computer with dial up. I can see why 50%+ failed and dropped out of my course in first year ... but the teaching in some subjects wasn't great either.

You're making me think of trying to save C assignments onto floppy disks

r93kaey5p2izun

I have fond memories of using some sort of basic programme in the early 90s. Dr Logo I think? Forward 50 Right 90 etc. Loved it! It seemed so cutting edge to us back then. :pac:

Good to see some training being made available. Wonder how many schools will start offering it from the start.

Giotar

I'm someone who was torn between teaching and doing a CS degree. Ending up picking CS and I'm now going in to 2nd year this Autumn. This is great news for me as I could possibly go on and teach it and get the best of both worlds.

I've asked around though about what I'd need to do and just want some confirmation here to see if it's correct.

I'm guessing staff will be very limited for this subject as no one will want to give up a well paying job except for the few who are enthusiastic about teaching and would happily take a pay cut such as myself. So it technically shouldn't be a problem finding a vacancy once I'm qualified, right?

On the subject of qualifying, would the CS degree + a PME be enough? I feel like I'd definitely want a 2nd subject to be able to get a full schedule/be more employable. How would I go about getting a 2nd subject? Thanks a mill

evolving_doors

Giotar wrote: »

I'm someone who was torn between teaching and doing a CS degree. Ending up picking CS and I'm now going in to 2nd year this Autumn. This is great news for me as I could possibly go on and teach it and get the best of both worlds.

I've asked around though about what I'd need to do and just want some confirmation here to see if it's correct.

I'm guessing staff will be very limited for this subject as no one will want to give up a well paying job except for the few who are enthusiastic about teaching and would happily take a pay cut such as myself. So it technically shouldn't be a problem finding a vacancy once I'm qualified, right?

On the subject of qualifying, would the CS degree + a PME be enough? I feel like I'd definitely want a 2nd subject to be able to get a full schedule/be more employable. How would I go about getting a 2nd subject? Thanks a mill

I suppose with CS there would be a high degree of maths involved. Maybe ring the teaching council now and see if you have any/many! shortfalls to get registered with maths. You'd probably have to pay to get your course assessed if it's not been before.

Do it now as you might be let in to do extra maths modules during your degree... whereas going back when your older to sit in on modules might cost an arm and a leg.

It's better to get this stuff sorted out ASAP with the teaching council. There have been many cases of colleges letting people in to do the PME and when the students graduate they find out that the teaching council wont recognise their degree!

In the meantime get involved with a coder dojo.

I wouldn't put all my eggs in to that basket though, it hasn't even been piloted in any schools yet.

doc_17

You'd absolutely 100% definitely need a second subject.

mtoutlemonde

Giotar wrote: »

I'm someone who was torn between teaching and doing a CS degree. Ending up picking CS and I'm now going in to 2nd year this Autumn. This is great news for me as I could possibly go on and teach it and get the best of both worlds.

I've asked around though about what I'd need to do and just want some confirmation here to see if it's correct.

I'm guessing staff will be very limited for this subject as no one will want to give up a well paying job except for the few who are enthusiastic about teaching and would happily take a pay cut such as myself. So it technically shouldn't be a problem finding a vacancy once I'm qualified, right?

On the subject of qualifying, would the CS degree + a PME be enough? I feel like I'd definitely want a 2nd subject to be able to get a full schedule/be more employable. How would I go about getting a 2nd subject? Thanks a mill

I wouldn't get too excited just yet - it will be a few years yet before it is offered in every school nationwide, although you have at least another two years of study to do before you qualify.

As another poster said, get onto the Teaching Council and ask them what the shortfalls are for CS degrees. It will probably cost you less as the universities are good at letting students study extra modules taking your registration fees into account. Also I don't know where you're studying but one of my regrets is that I didn't complete the diploma in Irish while I was studying at a very affordable price. I don't know if you're even interested in teaching Irish but you could pick up some first year classes.

Giotar

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

I wouldn't get too excited just yet - it will be a few years yet before it is offered in every school nationwide, although you have at least another two years of study to do before you qualify.

As another poster said, get onto the Teaching Council and ask them what the shortfalls are for CS degrees. It will probably cost you less as the universities are good at letting students study extra modules taking your registration fees into account. Also I don't know where you're studying but one of my regrets is that I didn't complete the diploma in Irish while I was studying at a very affordable price. I don't know if you're even interested in teaching Irish but you could pick up some first year classes.

I'm at DCU, 3 years to go yet. Computer Applications as far as my knowledge goes is recognised by the Teaching Council. Definitely wouldn't go near Irish. Maths or English would be my next 2 choices. I'll get on to the TC as soon as I can.

Cheers everyone.

honda021

The UCD course that @evolving_doors was talking about is running again in September 2018. See cs.ucd.ie -> Study With Us -> Postrgaduate. The course is at the bottom - "Professional Diploma in Educational Studies (Computational Thinking)"

mtoutlemonde

honda021 wrote: »

The UCD course that @evolving_doors was talking about is running again in September 2018. See cs.ucd.ie -> Study With Us -> Postrgaduate. The course is at the bottom - "Professional Diploma in Educational Studies (Computational Thinking)"

I wonder will there be any nationwide training or is this blended learning?