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Merrion Gates removal scheme

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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    CatInABox wrote: »
    Stations aren't delays.

    If a train stops, it is delayed. how do passengers get on and off at a station unless the train stops? With Health & Safety and all that, they can't do it on the fly.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,393 ✭✭✭Grassey


    If a train stops at a scheduled stop its on schedule... If it stops for 'moron ran the stop light and struck the Merrion gates' that's a delay


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Grassey wrote: »
    If a train stops at a scheduled stop its on schedule... If it stops for 'moron ran the stop light and struck the Merrion gates' that's a delay

    If a train stops on its schedule, every passenger who is not alighting is delayed pending their arrival at their destination stop. Fewer stops mean that the train reaches its termini faster.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    If a train stops on its schedule, every passenger who is not alighting is delayed pending their arrival at their destination stop. Fewer stops mean that the train reaches its termini faster.

    If their destination stop is one of the stations you want to close, they're delayed even further.

    In any case, I'm not sure what this has to do with the thread topic. The same number of trains will be running through the Merrion Gates crossing regardless of the number of stations they stop it, so the current problems will persist. And putting a station next to Merrion Gates will only exacerbate matters.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,379 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21




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  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,303 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    marno21 wrote: »

    The NTA are probably in shock at being on the same side as local residents.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭D.L.R.


    They don't want buildings over 3 floors or a flyover, but they're fine with horrendous grinding traffic jams twice a day ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,593 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    D.L.R. wrote: »
    They don't want buildings over 3 floors or a flyover, but they're fine with horrendous grinding traffic jams twice a day ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    I think you are talking about the local residents, not the NTA.

    Personally, I think the road through the car parks should be an underpass rather than a bridge - much less visual impact.

    Eight stories on that sight would be out of scale. They paid €18 million for the site and with 66 apartments, that gives a site value for each apartment at €270 k before any work. Apartments are about 100 sq m each, so will be very expensive. Merrion Village is across the road and I think goes to six floors at the back of a much larger site. Six floors would reduce the number of apartments to 50, and cost per apartment would rise to €360 k.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭D.L.R.


    Personally, I think the road through the car parks should be an underpass rather than a bridge - much less visual impact.

    But there's virtually no visual impact from the bridge! It goes between a church and commercial buildings, almost completely hidden. Nothing against an underpass but it would be vastly more expensive and complex.

    This aversion we have in this country to anything above head height is slightly bonkers. Chopping 2 storeys off a block of flats won't do anything to help the area's chronic traffic problems. The state needs to grow some backbone and get serious about infrastructure.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,852 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    D.L.R. wrote: »
    But there's virtually no visual impact from the bridge! It goes between a church and commercial buildings, almost completely hidden. Nothing against an underpass but it would be vastly more expensive and complex.

    This aversion we have in this country to anything above head height is slightly bonkers. Chopping 2 storeys off a block of flats won't do anything to help the area's chronic traffic problems. The state needs to grow some backbone and start getting serious about infrastructure.

    Was this Scheme scrapped due to local opposition?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭D.L.R.


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    Was this Scheme scrapped due to local opposition?

    Pretty much! The state folded like a cheap suit, as usual.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,379 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Which is beyond disappointing because it's an absolute no brainer of a scheme with large benefits.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,852 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    D.L.R. wrote: »
    Pretty much! The state folded like a cheap suit, as usual.

    Look you can read this place (state, public) like a book. If they don’t have the balls to do stuff, that isn’t even contentious, why are they proposing them in the first place ?

    You could have a plan that had no downsides and your resident idiots would object. “No “ to change “ no” to progress etc. these people have nothing else to do ...


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,593 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    D.L.R. wrote: »
    But there's virtually no visual impact from the bridge! It goes between a church and commercial buildings, almost completely hidden. Nothing against an underpass but it would be vastly more expensive and complex.

    This aversion we have in this country to anything above head height is slightly bonkers. Chopping 2 storeys off a block of flats won't do anything to help the area's chronic traffic problems. The state needs to grow some backbone and get serious about infrastructure.

    Not quite. It passes within a few metres of houses to the N and E of the proposed bridge. It would be completely hidden as an underpass. Why would it be much more expensive? It was proposed to put an underpass at the Merrion Gates site for pedestrians, just metres from the tidal beach - spring tide could well flood it.

    To cross a railway, it needs to go up or down by 5 metres.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,852 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    Is this another scheme long fingered, but which traffic will force at some point ? Like with the thousands of new fb employees in the area etc ?


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,593 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    Is this another scheme long fingered, but which traffic will force at some point ? Like with the thousands of new fb employees in the area etc ?

    It really was part of the ten minute dart project but hidden as part of the cycle project for a coastal cycleway out to Salthill. It also included extra bus lanes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭D.L.R.


    Not quite. It passes within a few metres of houses to the N and E of the proposed bridge. It would be completely hidden as an underpass. Why would it be much more expensive? It was proposed to put an underpass at the Merrion Gates site for pedestrians, just metres from the tidal beach - spring tide could well flood it.

    To cross a railway, it needs to go up or down by 5 metres.

    Tunnels cost more than bridges.

    I'm not against it, I just don't see the need when a bridge is perfectly fine. It passes a few houses yes. The daily traffic jams affect hundreds of houses and thousands of commuters.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,593 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    D.L.R. wrote: »
    Tunnels cost more than bridges.

    I'm not against it, I just don't see the need when a bridge is perfectly fine. It passes a few houses yes. The daily traffic jams affect hundreds of houses and thousands of commuters.

    Hardly a tunnel.

    It is a bridge with the railway on top, rather than the road on top. Going up needs a ramp requiring fill, going down requires excavation of spoil. What is the difference?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭D.L.R.


    Hardly a tunnel.

    It is a bridge with the railway on top, rather than the road on top. Going up needs a ramp requiring fill, going down requires excavation of spoil. What is the difference?

    It costs more. Going under a live railway also means disrupting the railway. May as well just elevate the railway and do a surface road under it.

    Either way the NIMBYS wouldn't be happy! They want their choking fume fix twice a day. Who cares how bad the pollution is so long as its all on one surface level :rolleyes:

    My own preference for this junction would be a road overpass continuing south from Strand road alongside the coast, and up and over around where the Texaco garage is. Plenty of room. But I believe there are EU environmental rules preventing this.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,820 ✭✭✭✭josip


    IR have a reputation for being difficult to deal with regarding any infrastructural developments impacting their lines.
    I can only imagine their conditions for allowing a bridge to be constructed over the line.
    I can't even begin to imagine their conditions to allow a tunnel underneath the line.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,593 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    D.L.R. wrote: »
    It costs more. Going under a live railway also means disrupting the railway. May as well just elevate the railway and do a surface road under it.

    They managed to put a road under the rail line in Sallins over a weekend for the main Cork/Dublin line.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,393 ✭✭✭Grassey


    But the road doesn't go underground at sallins. They lifted the tracks on a raised embankment, dug it out to ground level and dropped in concrete wall + roof, then tracks back down. They also had the luxury of being in a field with no residents around to complain about noise or working hours. Completely different to Merrion gates.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    marno21 wrote: »
    Which is beyond disappointing because it's an absolute no brainer of a scheme with large benefits.

    What do we want improved commutes!
    How do we want them.?
    By making absolutely no changes!
    When do we want them!
    Never, never, never!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭jhenno78


    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/nta-opposes-merrion-road-development-over-busconnects-concerns-1.3815617
    residents of of Fortlands Apartments, a four-storey scheme behind the site, said the proposal would lead to “darkening the public realm” and was overbearing in scale.

    This is particularly hilarious.
    Fortlands is a 4-story apartment block next door, due-west of the scheme. All apartment are either due-north or south facing
    - no light blocked here unless the planet starts rotating sideways.
    - Everything to the north of it, where it actually can block light is in th SVUH campus and not really a problem.
    “The proposed design may be suited to Sandyford Business district but fails to make a positive contribution to the Merrion Road corridor in this area.”

    The design of the apartments was “more akin to a commercial development and is not considered to sensitively integrate with the red-brick character of the area,” it said.
    It's replacing a feckin' car dealership. Right next door is the st. Vincents campus - and whatever you think of those buildings, quaint little edwardian red-bricks they ain't. Go further in either direction and you find Merrion Shopping Centre, AIB bank centre and elm park.

    Frankly, this is exactly the kind of building in the area.
    “The proposed bulk, massing and height of the development would not successfully integrate into or enhance the character of the area and is not considered to be acceptable,” it said.
    8 storeys...

    There's a 4-storey building next door.

    The 8-storey St. Vincents private is 100m away.

    The 7-storey St. Vincents is 200m away.

    What?


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,253 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    Likely lower 8 stories than the hospital building. Other than ensuring appropriate traffic management, i’m Lost as to the basis for objection.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,440 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Marcusm wrote: »
    Likely lower 8 stories than the hospital building. Other than ensuring appropriate traffic management, i’m Lost as to the basis for objection.

    And that's what an Bord plánála are for, to get away from the "local Councillor driven planning)

    How long would it take (ball park) to perform the merion gate works... I'm assuming there's not much room to to detour...
    Christmas week would probably the quietest time to do it, but doesn't give much time, and you'd have to pay off the neighbours so you could work 24 / 7...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,303 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Markcheese wrote: »
    And that's what an Bord plánála are for, to get away from the "local Councillor driven planning)

    How long would it take (ball park) to perform the merion gate works... I'm assuming there's not much room to to detour...
    Christmas week would probably the quietest time to do it, but doesn't give much time, and you'd have to pay off the neighbours so you could work 24 / 7...

    The new road would be built and operational before the gates are closed.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,593 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    jhenno78 wrote: »
    This is particularly hilarious.
    Fortlands is a 4-story apartment block next door, due-west of the scheme. All apartment are either due-north or south facing
    - no light blocked here unless the planet starts rotating sideways.
    - Everything to the north of it, where it actually can block light is in th SVUH campus and not really a problem.


    It's replacing a feckin' car dealership. Right next door is the st. Vincents campus - and whatever you think of those buildings, quaint little edwardian red-bricks they ain't. Go further in either direction and you find Merrion Shopping Centre, AIB bank centre and elm park.

    Frankly, this is exactly the kind of building in the area.


    8 storeys...

    There's a 4-storey building next door.

    The 8-storey St. Vincents private is 100m away.

    The 7-storey St. Vincents is 200m away.

    What?

    All the buildings facing Herbert Ave are two stories. All the red brick houses opposite are two stories. The building facing Merrion Rd either side are two story. South of the Herbert Ave is an estate of Pembroke Estate Cottages, and north is a victorian building used by Breast Check. Behind, hidden from view, is a low rise block of apartments, west of the Gowan site that will suffer from shadow.

    The St Vincent's Private Hospital is not visible from Merrion Road at Gowan's.

    It is obvious that 8 Stories is out of scale at that location.

    As for the Merrion Gates replacement bridge, it could be completed without any traffic effects. It is within two car parks either side of the railway line.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,253 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    All the buildings facing Herbert Ave are two stories. All the red brick houses opposite are two stories. The building facing Merrion Rd either side are two story. South of the Herbert Ave is an estate of Pembroke Estate Cottages, and north is a victorian building used by Breast Check. Behind, hidden from view, is a low rise block of apartments, west of the Gowan site that will suffer from shadow.

    The St Vincent's Private Hospital is not visible from Merrion Road at Gowan's.

    It is obvious that 8 Stories is out of scale at that location.

    As for the Merrion Gates replacement bridge, it could be completed without any traffic effects. It is within two car parks either side of the railway line.

    SVPH looks visible enough to me from street level on Merrion Road standing right beside the front entrance to Gowan’s. The apartment block behind it is 4 storeys and immediately west of it. Physically, any apartment block at Howan’s at 8 storeys will have minimal impact on light at Herbert Avenue.


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