Would You Sacrifice Rural Rail Services for the DART Underground/Metro North?

ClovenHoof

Serious question. If that was the only offer on the table?

Amirani

In a heartbeat.

lawred2

Yup

At least the country might get some value for money unlike the parish pump western rail corridor and it's 13 patrons.

It's should not even be a thinker.

But in Ireland you could be sure it would be

munster87

Would your answer mainly depend on if you live in Dublin or in rural Ireland?

John_Rambo

The latter is needed more, more people would use it, it would generate money for the state, things would improve.

So, it probably won't happen.

lawred2

munster87 wrote: »

Would your answer mainly depend on if you live in Dublin or in rural Ireland?

Only if you see things as 'us lot agin dem lot'

Seve OB

John_Rambo wrote: »

The former is needed more, more people would use it, it would generate money for the state, things would improve.

So, it probably won't happen.

So you reckon rural rail is needed more and more people would use it!
What planet are you on?

lawred2

Seve OB wrote: »

So you reckon rural rail is needed more and more people would use it!
What planet are you on?

Fairly sure he meant latter

munster87

lawred2 wrote: »

Only if you see things as 'us lot agin dem lot'

Not really us against them, more which would the individual make more use of

devnull

Heh, I'm not going to take the bait from the OP on this one

Del.Monte

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Serious question. If that was the only offer on the table?

No, but I'd be happy to see a reduction in commuter services if it meant the reopening of Mullingar/Athlone; Waterford/Rosslare Strand and a direct curve from the Dublin/Rosslare line to the Waterford/Rosslare line.

John_Rambo

Seve OB wrote: »

So you reckon rural rail is needed more and more people would use it!
What planet are you on?

Planet stupid. Sorry, meant the latter!! I'll change it now! Thanks.

ClovenHoof

To offer my own opinion the WRC proves that opening Parish Pump lines does nothing to generate rail transport usage at the macro level. If the option was to stop passenger services on the lines mentioned in the most recent report http://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/rail-report-routes-around-country-at-risk-of-closure-1.2840423, and focus resources on the GDR, this would massively increase rail usage and lead - in a round-about way - to reopening close lines reopening in future.

If the DARTUnderground/Dublin Rail Plan was fully implemented, then it would lead in time to reopening of Athlone-Mullingar and Navan lines. The tree growing from the very healthy roots.

I know it sounds like a strange idea, but it creates momentum for expansion, opening the second phase of the WRC is the terminal paralysis of all rail services.

Grandeeod

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Serious question. If that was the only offer on the table?

A visionary post brother Cloven.;)

Grandeeod

Del.Monte wrote: »

No, but I'd be happy to see a reduction in commuter services if it meant the reopening of Mullingar/Athlone; Waterford/Rosslare Strand and a direct curve from the Dublin/Rosslare line to the Waterford/Rosslare line.

LOL!

At least you are enjoying yourself.:D

LeinsterDub

In a heartbeat

Del.Monte

LeinsterDub wrote: »

In a heartbeat

That's two of us. Which commuter services would you like to see cut back? I fancy withdrawing everything north of the Liffey as it only encourages Northsiders to wander.

end of the road

i don't believe in others losing their services for other services, even if i support the proposed services that others would be sacrificed for. while it all ready effectively has happened with rail, increasing that might cause the idea to spread to other services knowing our government.

LeinsterDub

Del.Monte wrote: »

That's two of us. Which commuter services would you like to see cut back? I fancy withdrawing everything north of the Liffey as it only encourages Northsiders to wander.

We are keeping all the urban rail didn't you read the op

BonnieSituation

Deedsie wrote: »

As a person originally from rural Ireland (and wishes to return someday) who supports the Limerick - Nenagh - Ballybrophy line and wants it upgraded not closed.

I would have to say yes, if Metro North and DART Expansion being built was contingent on that line being closed I think it would be the best option for the government to go with Metro North and DART Expansion.

Over 95% of the island would benefit from Metro North, it would provide access for everyone to the airport and link up to public transport options to the rest of Ireland etc

This whole Dublin v the rest thing has to stop. It is all of our country An Dublin is all of our capita city.

DU is exponentially more important. MN can jump until it's built.

Del2005

end of the road wrote: »

i don't believe in others losing their services for other services, even if i support the proposed services that others would be sacrificed for. while it all ready effectively has happened with rail, increasing that might cause the idea to spread to other services knowing our government.

So you'd rather spend tax income on something which has better cheaper alternatives than something that would benefit the whole country.

This country doesn't believe in what makes public transport, and the provision of most public services, viable because people want ribbon development instead of living in towns or villages while complaining about having to use a car to get anywhere. Rail needs high densities to be viable, we don't do high density.

BonnieSituation

Del2005 wrote: »

So you'd rather spend tax income on something which has better cheaper alternatives than something that would benefit the whole country.

This country doesn't believe in what makes public transport, and the provision of most public services, viable because people want ribbon development instead of living in towns or villages while complaining about having to use a car to get anywhere. Rail needs high densities to be viable, we don't do high density.

Then planning guidelines should force us to. Ribbon development should come with hefty levies to make them not viable and force people into towns and villages.

Look at the heights in the new Dublin City Development plan!

We are a mediocre people who vote for gobsh!tes into office and then complain that planners don't do their jobs.

Densities can be achieved if they're made be achieved!

end of the road

Del2005 wrote: »

So you'd rather spend tax income on something which has better cheaper alternatives than something that would benefit the whole country.

they're are no better alternatives to rail apart from the private car. the only cheeper alternative that is worth it's salt for rail users if their service was stolen is the car, because it offers the next best thing. so yes, i would happily spend money on providing something that is another public transport option, for which new users can be attracted to it who may not use public transport otherwise, and existing users who use it, will continue to use public transport. that benefits the whole country as it's less money on moher ways begorra. dart underground won't benefit me or others if our rail services which are viable were stolen to fund it.

Del2005 wrote: »

Rail needs high densities to be viable, we don't do high density.

the lines in this country are viable and have the populations to make them work, it's non interest by IE/NTA/government and the lack of infrastructure investment that is the reason they're are problems.

Nekarsulm

What rural services? There is no rail service in an arc between the Belfast line and the Maynooth/Longford/Sligo line. I suppose thats why they built the M3 instead.

n97 mini

If the fares were free to the user and Michael O'Leary paid their fares to IE instead I doubt the Waterford-Limerick Junction route, the Nenagh branch, the WRC or the Wexford line beyond Gorey would pay their way.

The reality is the rail "network" was built in the 1800s and large parts of it are unfit for purpose. Additionally towns that should have grown didn't as parish pump politics mean rural one-offs are rife, and contribute nothing to the sustainability of many services, rail included.

If I had to pick one to give the bullet to it'd probably be the Nenagh branch. After that it's a toss up between the WRC and the Waterford-Limerick Junction route. The latter is doomed as it averages less than 35mph and all the stations en route are already bricked up.

Something that would probably turn a profit immediately would be the M3 Parkway to Navan route, something so busy it now has a 24 hour a day bus service... But the parish pump spent the money on the WRC instead.

end of the road

n97 mini wrote: »

If the fares were free to the user and Michael O'Leary paid their fares to IE instead I doubt the Waterford-Limerick Junction route, the Nenagh branch, the WRC or the Wexford line beyond Gorey would pay their way.

the vast vast majority of the network doesn't pay it's way, however it adds to society and benefits us all and the economy in many ways which cannot be quantified in simple profit and loss.
wexford and enniscorthy absolutely have the traffic to justify a rail service and while groth would be liked by me and many others, the morning dublin bound and evening rosslare/wexford bound trains do decent trade. however the service has a hell of a lot of room for improvement so it's not surprising many choose not to use it, deal with the issues and you have something we can be prowd of.

n97 mini wrote: »

The reality is the rail "network" was built in the 1800s and large parts of it are unfit for purpose.

some could have better alinements yes, but as much as we'd all like to have japanese style bullet trains, the reality is it isn't going to happen so we have to improve and work with, and invest in what we have got.

n97 mini wrote: »

Additionally towns that should have grown didn't as parish pump politics mean rural one-offs are rife, and contribute nothing to the sustainability of many services, rail included.

the vast vast majority of the rail network is sustainible. parish pump politics is what the people want, otherwise they wouldn't vote for it again and again. now you don't have to like that fact and don't by all means, i don't always like it either but the people know what they are voting for and vote for it. one knows what they are getting. so the people are responsible for the failures.

n97 mini wrote: »

If I had to pick one to give the bullet to it'd probably be the Nenagh branch. After that it's a toss up between the WRC and the Waterford-Limerick Junction route. The latter is doomed as it averages less than 35mph and all the stations en route are already bricked up.

the limerick junction waterford line can be saved with interest. decent sized towns which can support a frequent reliable rail service. for the wrc, close all the stations bar ennis and athenry, the 2 original stations. that would potentially give a competitive service. infact, from the start no stations should have been opened between limerick and athenry.

n97 mini wrote: »

Something that would probably turn a profit immediately would be the M3 Parkway to Navan route, something so busy it now has a 24 hour a day bus service... But the parish pump spent the money on the WRC instead.

and then again it might not turn a profit. what would happen if that was the case? would we shut it back down again or just except like grown up countries that it is part of our infrastructure?
the people voted for the government who reopened ennis athenry instead of navan (which never should have been closed and ripped up in the first place) . the people are responsible.

MGWR

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Serious question. If that was the only offer on the table?

False dilemma.

And if this is what the government "offers", then a political football. Utterly corrupt notion to even broach.

MGWR

n97 mini wrote: »

If the fares were free to the user and Michael O'Leary paid their fares to IE instead I doubt the Waterford-Limerick Junction route, the Nenagh branch, the WRC or the Wexford line beyond Gorey would pay their way.

The reality is the rail "network" was built in the 1800s and large parts of it are unfit for purpose. Additionally towns that should have grown didn't as parish pump politics mean rural one-offs are rife, and contribute nothing to the sustainability of many services, rail included.

If I had to pick one to give the bullet to it'd probably be the Nenagh branch. After that it's a toss up between the WRC and the Waterford-Limerick Junction route. The latter is doomed as it averages less than 35mph and all the stations en route are already bricked up.

Something that would probably turn a profit immediately would be the M3 Parkway to Navan route, something so busy it now has a 24 hour a day bus service... But the parish pump spent the money on the WRC instead.

All false arguments. None of the government-run railways "turn a profit" no matter how busy they are; that is the nature of things when the government runs them.

And there are many railways built in the 1800s that are quite "fit for purpose even today. When was the Dublin and Kingstown built, after all?

Bray Head

MGWR wrote: »

All false arguments. None of the government-run railways "turn a profit" no matter how busy they are; that is the nature of things when the government runs them.

We all know that a rail system in Ireland inevitably requires subsidies.
It is perfectly reasonably to compare subsidy per passenger across various routes though.
My guess is that there is an order of magnitude difference between Limerick-Ballybrophy and Bray to Pearse.
Happy for anyone to prove me wrong on this.

n97 mini

MGWR wrote: »

All false arguments. None of the government-run railways "turn a profit" no matter how busy they are; that is the nature of things when the government runs them.

And there are many railways built in the 1800s that are quite "fit for purpose even today. When was the Dublin and Kingstown built, after all?

Dublin and Kingstown is in a metro area and proves my point: urban lines are not a problem, and we need more of them.

Profitable=sustainable. If they're not profitable routes the money has to come from somewhere else to keep them open.

Alan Kelly did us a favour by carpet bombing the Nenagh branch with trains. People then couldn't complain about lack of services, but they still stayed away in droves. No justification for wasting money running empty trains.

Del2005

end of the road wrote: »

they're are no better alternatives to rail apart from the private car. the only cheeper alternative that is worth it's salt for rail users if their service was stolen is the car, because it offers the next best thing. so yes, i would happily spend money on providing something that is another public transport option, for which new users can be attracted to it who may not use public transport otherwise, and existing users who use it, will continue to use public transport. that benefits the whole country as it's less money on moher ways begorra. dart underground won't benefit me or others if our rail services which are viable were stolen to fund it.



the lines in this country are viable and have the populations to make them work, it's non interest by IE/NTA/government and the lack of infrastructure investment that is the reason they're are problems.

Apart from the commuter lines which one is faster, cheaper and arrives in the location that people want to get to faster than coaches?