8 masses for Axel

fisgon

This is problematic, I think, in more ways than one. Though of course voicing any kind of dissenting opinion will be seen as insensitive.


THE 11-YEAR-OLD son of Anthony Foley has launched a different kind of Facebook call-out in his dad’s memory.
The Facebook page – dubbed #8masses4no8 – says that the family has been overwhelmed by the support it has received in the last week, and urges fans to attend mass for the next eight Sundays in tribute to Foley, whose birthday would have been this coming Sunday.
Foley’s son, also named Tony, has asked “that this page be set up in his memory” according to the Facebook page.
Munster head coach Anthony Foley passed away suddenly and tragically in France last week from a heart complaint.
“The number 8 (Foley’s former position) is, of course, a special number for Tony and his family but the eight Sundays also bring us up to that special family time of year, Christmas,” the page continues.

http://www.thejournal.ie/anthony-foley-son-mass-3044192-Oct2016/

seamus

I don't really see the issue?

The boy is young and likely puts a lot of stock in religious belief and perhaps gets comfort from what it teaches. So he considers attending mass in remembrance of his father to be appropriate. Perhaps his father was very religious too?

I know if I had a very religious parent who thought that attending mass was a very respectful way of remembering them, then I would appreciate people making that effort to go to mass, even if I didn't.

sbsquarepants

I can't see how it's problematic either??
I'm not a believer, so I won't be going, problem solved. If you do believe and want to go, I see no problem there either.
I'm not seeing your point OP.

magicbastarder

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I'm not seeing your point OP.

i don't think there was a point expressed, to be fair. well, no reason given.

FrancieBrady

Use the 'scroll on by' function in FB. Works for me 100 times out of a 100.

GLaDOS

Yeah, also failing to see an issue here.

infogiver

Hi OP
I'm intrigued
What problems do you envisage, and for whom?

HamsterFace

It's none of your bloody business. Such arrogance.

From a fellow atheist.

Tefral

If the problem is because you are an Atheist or non christian and you want to mark Anthonys passing maybe approach Shannon RFC and ask can you help them set up for a match or something like that. I know Rugby Clubs always need a hand and it would certainly be appreciated.

The young lad is only 11, probably going to be making his Confirmation soon, he obviously sees this as a coping mechanism which alot of people use their faith for. I think its great he has taken this initiative as a young man to honour his dad. If they are religious i cannot see how it is problematic. Alot of Rugby players are religious. Just count the number of them that bless themselves coming on to the pitch.

Just for the record I am an Atheist.

panda100

I agree with the other posters that its a non issue.

However, what I find uncomfortable about this is the promotion of it within Limerick media. The Limerick Post and Limerick Leader consistently have a heavy bias towards Catholicism. Only a few weeks ago the Post had an article about how some guy with MS was miraculously 'cured' by a Padre Pio statue or something to that effect. They are always spouting religious nonsense that really should be challenged. I have no problem with a grieving son going to mass for his father and getting a grieving community to do the same. However, I can't imagine Limerick media publicising this gesture as much if it was a young muslim boy calling for prayers to Allah or something.

super_furry

fisgon wrote: »

This is problematic, I think, in more ways than one. Though of course voicing any kind of dissenting opinion will be seen as insensitive.

What exactly do you think is 'problematic' here? You save you have issues with it in more ways than one, but don't go on to explain those issues.

robindch

fisgon wrote: »

Though of course voicing any kind of dissenting opinion will be seen as insensitive.

Can't disagree with that. And as with the continuing outpouring of public grief which seems a little out of proportion to the excellent Anthony Foley, it's best to follow FrancieBrady's advice and just scroll on past.

If I had to give an opinion - which I must note I haven't - I'd have thought it a little better if the grieving son had suggested, perhaps with the help of family and friends, to set up a scholarship or something like that in his father's name and put all the current emotion and interest to some good, positive use instead of pretending, no doubt with the willing help of adults, that things are other than they really are.

infogiver

robindch wrote: »

Can't disagree with that. And as with the continuing outpouring of public grief which seems a little out of proportion to the excellent Anthony Foley, it's best to follow FrancieBrady's advice and just scroll on past.

If I had to give an opinion - which I must note I haven't - I'd have thought it a little better if the grieving son had suggested, perhaps with the help of family and friends, to set up a scholarship or something like that in his father's name and put all the current emotion and interest to some good, positive use instead of pretending, no doubt with the willing help of adults, that things are other than they really are.

The child wants anyone who is a fan of A Foley/Munster/rugby and a mass goer to say a prayer for his dead father at every Sunday mass from now till Christmas
The idea that lots of people are doing this will be a comfort to he and his family.
Because they are religious and have a deep faith.
You say it would be "better" if a traumatised heartbroken child were setting up a trust fund/scholarship.
Better for whom? How is his "prayer/candle/mass" idea inferior?

Bicycle

Its a request, not a government edict. Nobody has to participate if they don't want to. Any more than you have to help people on "go fund me"pages.

Surely in a democratic society, people have the freedom to talk about religion AND atheism.

The Limerick Leader is engaged in a lot of parish pump reporting - it sells newspapers. Because people tend to only buy it if little Chardonnay or Concita has their picture in the paper in their dance costume/holy communion outfit/sports gear.

I know a number of people who aren't religious and who are lighting red candles to remember Axel instead.

frostyjacks

Yes, it is insensitive.

infogiver

panda100 wrote: »

I agree with the other posters that its a non issue.

However, what I find uncomfortable about this is the promotion of it within Limerick media. The Limerick Post and Limerick Leader consistently have a heavy bias towards Catholicism. Only a few weeks ago the Post had an article about how some guy with MS was miraculously 'cured' by a Padre Pio statue or something to that effect. They are always spouting religious nonsense that really should be challenged. I have no problem with a grieving son going to mass for his father and getting a grieving community to do the same. However, I can't imagine Limerick media publicising this gesture as much if it was a young muslim boy calling for prayers to Allah or something.

I don't buy the Daily Telegraph because it's a Tory mouthpiece
Why don't you just leave these newspapers on the shelf if you don't like the tone?
Why do you think that the Editor and shareholders don't have the right to express their politics/ faith? Is the Equal Status Act being breached?
Challenged in what way? And by which body?

robindch

infogiver wrote: »

You say it would be "better" if a traumatised heartbroken child were setting up a trust fund/scholarship. Better for whom? How is his "prayer/candle/mass" idea inferior?

Mostly because it's false, and arguably manipulative, to pretend that praying or going to mass achieves anything.

Apart from that, setting up a scholarship respects Foley's memory and interests more closely - he was, after all, not a priest but a rugby coach who loved the game and devoted much of his life to it.

looksee

robindch wrote: »

Mostly because it's false, and arguably manipulative, to pretend that praying or going to mass achieves anything.

Apart from that, setting up a scholarship respects Foley's memory and interests more closely - he was, after all, not a priest but a rugby coach who loved the game and devoted much of his life to it.

Sorry Robindch, I think you are way off with this. You and I may know, think, accept that it is false and manipulative, but that is no reason why this youngster has to fall in with our opinions. If he is helped by it, let him do it, you don't have to get involved.

frostyjacks

robindch wrote: »

Mostly because it's false, and arguably manipulative, to pretend that praying or going to mass achieves anything.

Apart from that, setting up a scholarship respects Foley's memory and interests more closely - he was, after all, not a priest but a rugby coach who loved the game and devoted much of his life to it.

You sound like you knew the man better than his own family.

El_Duderino 09

Bicycle wrote:

Its a request, not a government edict. Nobody has to participate if they don't want to.

This

If an institution like Munster Rugby or the IRFU was suggesting people go to a specific religion's ritual, then it would be pushing it. If he government said the same thing it would be very wrong.

This is a private person suggesting that people go to mass to honour his dead father and there's nothing wrong with that.

Pherekydes

I don't see much of an issue. I guess his fans are thanking god he didn't play full back.

I'd better have a chat with my NOK about "stuff": "Ok, you know that #60 Packers' jersey I have..."

Walter H Price

This is a young lad who just lost his father in a very tragic and public way. Fair play to him for doing whatever he feels he has to do to get himself and his family through what must be a brutal time for them.

I have no idea weather Axel Foley was a religious man or not to be honest i never gave it a second thought , maybe he was and maybe this is a very fitting tribute from his son. i Don't believe in god or heaven or any of that stuff personally, but i certainly wouldn't be criticizing a child who's just lost a parent for believing there might be chance that they would see them again, no matter how little i personally believe in that happening.

I don't go to mass ever anyway so wont be going at all over the next 8 weeks or at Christmas , but again no judgement from me on the lad setting up this tribute to his dad, more power to him.

davo2001

frostyjacks wrote: »

Yes, it is insensitive.

If you find this request insensitive then crawl back under the rock you came from. It's a request, not a demand, and from a 12 year old boy who just lost his father. Get over it.

frostyjacks

davo2001 wrote: »

If you find this request insensitive then crawl back under the rock you came from. It's a request, not a demand, and from a 12 year old boy who just lost his father. Get over it.

The objection to his request is insensitive, if you read the OP.

eviltwin

I don't see an issue. Obviously religion is important to the family and they feel people going to mass will be beneficial to them and the deceased. If it brings a young lad a bit of comfort at what is probably the worst time in his young life what of it. No one expects anyone to go to mass unless they are religious. I don't have any religious beliefs myself but I can't see why anyone would have a problem with it.

robindch

looksee wrote: »

Sorry Robindch, I think you are way off with this. You and I may know, think, accept that it is false and manipulative, but that is no reason why this youngster has to fall in with our opinions.

I didn't say that he has to fall in with our opinions - as above, I made it clear that it's best just to steer clear of this issue.

looksee wrote: »

If he is helped by it, let him do it, you don't have to get involved.

On a point of principle, I don't think that he or anybody else is genuinely helped by pretending that pious myths, no matter how nice, are true - particularly when they are propagated by organizations like the RCC.

But again, I think this is a social/political issue which atheists should keep quiet about, certainly while the grief is still raw and the kid remains a kid.

robindch

frostyjacks wrote: »

You sound like you knew the man better than his own family.

davo2001 wrote: »

If you find this request insensitive then crawl back under the rock you came from.

No personal comments, please.

Thanking youze.

lazybones32

fisgon wrote: »

This is problematic, I think, in more ways than one.

Would you care to elaborate on any of the problems you think may arise?

fisgon wrote: »

Though of course voicing any kind of dissenting opinion will be seen as insensitive.

Not insensitive, just not thought through...and maybe a little paranoid... or reading too much into this.

An 11 year old boy wants those who are going to Mass to light a candle for their own loved ones who have died and his dad and to share a pic of the candle on FB. It will make a welcome change from duckfaces and those puppy ears/nose.

fisgon

To clarify, I have no problem with an 11 year old boy doing whatever he needs to do to remember his father. It was a terrible, sudden tragedy, and the family are just trying to make sense of it.

My issue is more with some of the reaction and coverage. There has been a unanimous response that a campaign trying to get people to go to mass for 8 weeks is "brave", "inspiring", "amazing", "courageous". Comments on Journal.ie that have expressed any reservations about this have been deleted, you can still see the negative responses but not the comments themselves.

In essence, the campaign is a religious one, and has gone beyond simply something to remember Anthony Foley. If you do a search on FB for 8massesforno8 you will find all kinds of posts from Cloyne diocese, Killeshadra Parish, Parish of Dunmore, lots of other Catholic bodies. The campaign wants people to go to mass, it wants people to fulfill their Catholic duty and the church is already using it to get bums on seats.

A church is not a neutral space, and the Church is not a harmless organization. It is fundamentally a political lobby now, campaigning against abortion, secular education, equal rights. Many people will take no heed of the campaign, but others will be influenced and guilted into going to mass because of it.

The family can do what they want, and ask people to do whatever, but I am just questioning the apparent consensus that asking people to go to mass is a good thing, and the assumption that if you question this, then you are somehow insulting a bereaved 11 year old boy, which is not the case.

Mr Arrior

What??? Why would it be a problem? I'm Religious so I think it is a great idea, if you're not then ya prob don't. What's the big deal here.

lazybones32

wasn't far off...

05eaftqbrs9jlh

I really don't like the church getting any sort of promotion either. The media coverage this person's death got was insanity. I never heard of him before and all of a sudden every iota of small talk with acquaintances that I have to engage in is about this. The preferred focus of the Irish hivemind is irritatingly narrow.

Walter H Price

fisgon wrote: »

To clarify, I have no problem with an 11 year old boy doing whatever he needs to do to remember his father. It was a terrible, sudden tragedy, and the family are just trying to make sense of it.

My issue is more with some of the reaction and coverage. There has been a unanimous response that a campaign trying to get people to go to mass for 8 weeks is "brave", "inspiring", "amazing", "courageous". Comments on Journal.ie that have expressed any reservations about this have been deleted, you can still see the negative responses but not the comments themselves.

In essence, the campaign is a religious one, and has gone beyond simply something to remember Anthony Foley. If you do a search on FB for 8massesforno8 you will find all kinds of posts from Cloyne diocese, Killeshadra Parish, Parish of Dunmore, lots of other Catholic bodies. The campaign wants people to go to mass, it wants people to fulfill their Catholic duty and the church is already using it to get bums on seats.

A church is not a neutral space, and the Church is not a harmless organization. It is fundamentally a political lobby now, campaigning against abortion, secular education, equal rights. Many people will take no heed of the campaign, but others will be influenced and guilted into going to mass because of it.

The family can do what they want, and ask people to do whatever, but I am just questioning the apparent consensus that asking people to go to mass is a good thing, and the assumption that if you question this, then you are somehow insulting a bereaved 11 year old boy, which is not the case.

It's a sensitive subject , given the campaign was started by the family and not the church and look if a few A La Carte Catholic Rugby fans (Or bandwagon jumpers) go to a few extra masses over the next few weeks , what harm .... i don't think it will have a major impact in terms of progressing a move to a more secular state , of course the catholic church will support it but who cares.

8 masses for no 8 wont make the RCC relevant again , we wont have magdalen laundries and a ban on contraception back after new year like , its just a thing set up by grieving young lad trying to do his da proud. if this is what he feels he has to do to achieve that then fair play to him.

I hate the church , i honestly do , i hate religion in schools , blasphemy laws , the abuse that was carried out and cover up the lies the hypocrisy and all the rest , but pick your battles like. All that could come of critizing the campagin is backlash , best just ignored and acknowleged only in terms of fair play to young lad for doing somthing at what must be a very very tough time for him.

OhHiMark

magicbastarder wrote: »

i don't think there was a point expressed, to be fair. well, no reason given.

There was a point expressed, that this was problematic. A word that is meaningless by itself but is used when people want to say that they disagree with something, but can't give a reason.

Mr Arrior

This thread shows the amount of hate in the world. Let the boy grieve in piece ffs.

frostyjacks

fisgon wrote: »

The family can do what they want, and ask people to do whatever, but I am just questioning the apparent consensus that asking people to go to mass is a good thing, and the assumption that if you question this, then you are somehow insulting a bereaved 11 year old boy, which is not the case.

Your views are quite depressing. What business is it of yours how a boy grieves for his father? Be thankful you're not in his shoes.

Will you be protesting outside the month's mind?

looksee

Mr Arrior wrote: »

This thread shows the amount of hate in the world. Let the boy grieve in piece ffs.

Have you read the thread? The vast majority of replies - mostly from atheists - are saying just let him do what will help him.

Hate? The only people who use that term in respect of religion are people who are religious, and not supposed to engage in such a negative emotion. Where is the hate? And 'in the world?' More hyperbole.

PS: its peace, not piece.

Mr Arrior

looksee wrote:

Have you read the thread? The vast majority of replies - mostly from atheists - are saying just let him do what will help him.

looksee wrote:

Hate? The only people who use that term in respect of religion are people who are religious, and not supposed to engage in such a negative emotion. Where is the hate? And 'in the world?' More hyperbole.

No, I didn't mean the posters. I meant the basis of the thread. Tbh most of the posters have been respectful.

El_Duderino 09

Mr Arrior wrote:

This thread shows the amount of hate in the world. Let the boy grieve in piece ffs.

Very little hate being expressed on this thread and the majority opinion is that there's nothing to see here.

Some people disagree with each other and Tony's Mass appeal, but I think it would take a very loose definition of 'hate' to be applied here.

Musketeer4

And what are you supposed to do if you are a big Axel fan and you're a prodestant or even an athiest? Hardly going to rock up outside the local catholic church 8 sundays in a row.

Walter H Price

Mr Arrior wrote: »

This thread shows the amount of hate in the world. Let the boy grieve in piece ffs.

Completly disagree , most people have been of the view that the lad should do whatever he needs to.

As an athiest i wouldnt consider for 5 seconds going to a random mass for just about any reason , as i would not go to a Mosque for prayer , a jewish or seek temple or to be audited by a scientologist. but i also wouldnt critize or judge a grieving 12 year old who just lost his father very publicly.

and to be honest i think that's the sentiment being expressed by the majority here.

Mr Arrior

Walter H Price wrote:

and to be honest i think that's the sentiment being expressed by the majority here.

As I've explained, I didn't mean the posters, more so the reason the thread was started.

El_Duderino 09

Musketeer4 wrote:

And what are you supposed to do if you are a big Axel fan and you're a prodestant or even an athiest? Hardly going to rock up outside the local catholic church 8 sundays in a row.

Then you can do whatever you like but you're unlikely to be doing it with as many people as will be at mass.

OhHiMark

Musketeer4 wrote: »

And what are you supposed to do if you are a big Axel fan and you're a prodestant or even an athiest? Hardly going to rock up outside the local catholic church 8 sundays in a row.

So? Don't then. Find some other way to remember him.

Mary63

Really have heard enough about this mans death.

I still have no idea who is he was,something to do with rugby,no desire to learn anymore in spite of pages and pages of media coverage,I just ignored it all.

Enough already.

El_Duderino 09

Mary63 wrote:

I still have no idea who is he was,something to do with rugby,no desire to learn anymore in spite of pages and pages of media coverage,I just ignored it all.

If you consumed coverage and still don't know who he is, then that's an issue. If you haven't consumed the coverage, then what's the problem? It will pass.

Mr Arrior

The amount of posters saying that they have no problem even though its an Agnostic/atheist page is quite refreshing.

Musketeer4

Mary63 wrote: »

Really have heard enough about this mans death.

I still have no idea who is he was,something to do with rugby,no desire to learn anymore in spite of pages and pages of media coverage,I just ignored it all.

Enough already.

Indeed. Look of course its bad that a man died suddenly and its sad for his family but the country lost the run of themselves, mourning one man who most didn't even know. Was like a lite version of Kim Jong Il's funeral with all the public displays of grief.
Meanwhile over in Syria hundreds of people are being shot, butchered, bombed and burned to pieces every single day and no-one seems to give a shít.
Good to know that the Irish public prioritise rugby over war crimes on being committed on a grand scale.

Walter H Price

Mr Arrior wrote: »

As I've explained, I didn't mean the posters, more so the reason the thread was started.

Even that i think was more ill judged and at worst in bad taste then hate filled.

Of course as atheists we'd all rather he was encouraging people to go to 8 Shannon or Munster games , an applause on the 8th minute of every muster game for the rest of the season or the 6 nations , raise money for 8 charities etc...... none of us like or have any respect for the church , in that regard i get the OP's sentiment.

That said regardless of what we would rather, if the kid thinks doing the 8 masses thing is the best tribute to his dad he could think of then i think that should be fully respected also and criticism of it, is in bad taste given the circumstance.

deisedude

I'm an atheist but can completely understand where the boy is coming from having lost family members in tragic circumstances myself. I felt compelled to do something in their memory and its a healthy way of dealing with grief.

Anyone who takes offence at what this boy is doing really needs to get a life.

Walter H Price

Musketeer4 wrote: »

Indeed. Look of course its bad that a man died suddenly and its sad for his family but the country lost the run of themselves, mourning one man who most didn't even know. Was like a lite version of Kim Jong Il's funeral with all the public displays of grief.
Meanwhile over in Syria hundreds of people are being shot, butchered, bombed and burned to pieces every single day and no-one seems to give a shít.
Good to know that the Irish public prioritise rugby over war crimes on being committed on a grand scale.

Ah seriously give it a rest of course Irish people , particularly rugby fans will be more affected by the death of a man well known to them and respected by them in a professional sense , just as football fans would have been if it was Paul McGrath or Damien duff who died suddenly.

You know what im sick of is every other thing people find tragic being compared to poxy syria , refugess etc... should we just compare all things to syria going forward ? how would the Berkeley tragedy have compared , or murder suicide in cavan a few weeks back ... of course thees things are closer to home then whats going on in bloody Allepo