Landlord selling house, what's my rights?

davo2001

Hi,

We got a letter in the post yesterday saying the landlord intends to put the house we are renting on the market in January. We are living in a nice estate and houses that have been put on the market recently have been sale agreed within days / weeks.

We have been living in the house for nearly 7 years, good tenants and always paid on time obviously, we aren't really happy with the amount of notice we have been given (2 months).

Do we have any right to constest this so do we just have to suck it up. Ideally we would like another couple of months to find somewhere suitable.

punisher5112

Start looking. The ll can sell once you are not locked into a binding lease.

Unless stated in the lease of course.

Look up threshold for advice and time but you have being given in writing

Ms Doubtfire1

do you have a fixed term lease and if yes what term?

davo2001

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

do you have a fixed term lease and if yes what term?

We had signed a new lease in April 2015 but it was only for a year

Cheshire Cat

He has to give you more than 2 months notice. As you are there 6 years but less than 7, he has to give you 24 weeks (168 days) notice.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/if_your_landlord_wants_you_to_leave.html

He is entitled to sell the house, but you are entitled to the legal notice period.

davo2001

Cheshire Cat wrote: »

He has to give you more than 2 months notice. As you are there 6 years but less than 7, he has to give you 24 weeks (168 days) notice.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/if_your_landlord_wants_you_to_leave.html

He is entitled to sell the house, but you are entitled to the legal notice period.

Thanks, does the notice period on the article apply if the LL intends to sell though?

Ms Doubtfire1

ah...just re-thinking. you are under part 4, but even under part 4 if LL intent to sell you have to vacate-but there are certain things the LL must provide
Citizen info:
How easily your landlord can end your tenancy depends on the type of tenancy you have and how long you have been in the accommodation. Your landlord must always give you valid written notice when asking you to leave - see 'Reasons and notice of termination' and 'Notice periods' below.

If you have a fixed-term tenancy, the landlord cannot normally end the tenancy unless you are in breach of your obligations – read more on the RTB's website.

After the first 6 months you acquire rights to security of tenure, even if you have a fixed-term tenancy (of 1 year, for example).

so you are in your third year of part 4 tenancy.
Term is 84 days. (almost 3 month)
Selling

The landlord can end your tenancy if they intend to sell within 3 months. They must provide a signed statutory declaration that this is the case. Failure to adhere to either terms makes the termination invalid, if not to say illegal. get in touch with the tenancy board

seamus

My understanding is that your part 4 security runs irrespective of the fixed-term. So if the landlord intends on ending the tenancy at the end of the fixed term lease, he is still required to provide the statutory minimum notice, which in your case would be 24 weeks.

seamus

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

so you are in your third year of part 4 tenancy.
Term is 84 days. (almost 3 month)

The rules changed last year so that the clock didn't "reset" at the end of a 4-year cycle. Someone who's been in the property between 6-7 years is now entitled to 168 days (24 weeks) notice.

pc7

Cheshire Cat wrote: »

He has to give you more than 2 months notice. As you are there 6 years but less than 7, he has to give you 24 weeks (168 days) notice.
.

Is that new, I always thought the part 4 tenancy just restarted so that they would be there over 2 less than 3 so 56 days. good to know.

Cheshire Cat

davo2001 wrote: »

Thanks, does the notice period on the article apply if the LL intends to sell though?

It does. Selling is one of the few reasons your LL can terminate a Part IV lease, but he has to stick to the rules.

Ms Doubtfire1

seamus wrote: »

The rules changed last year so that the clock didn't "reset" at the end of a 4-year cycle. Someone who's been in the property between 6-7 years is now entitled to 168 days (24 weeks) notice.

wow-didn't know that? have you a link to the appropriate legal announcement?

pc7

seamus wrote: »

The rules changed last year so that the clock didn't "reset" at the end of a 4-year cycle. Someone who's been in the property between 6-7 years is now entitled to 168 days (24 weeks) notice.

Our posts crossed, wow so basically now a landlord has no right to end any tenancy without the main reasons (eg selling, refurbishment, needing it, bad behavior). Really feel the notice is way too excessive.

Cheshire Cat

pc7 wrote: »

Is that new, I always thought the part 4 tenancy just restarted so that they would be there over 2 less than 3 so 56 days. good to know.

Newish. The amended Residential Tenancy Act came into effect in December 2015.

pc7

Cheshire Cat wrote: »

Newish. The amended Residential Tenancy Act came into effect in December 2015.

Don't know how I missed the lack of a reset button on the P4 side, I suppose not many tenancies go over 4 years. Any I've had that have been long term they've decided to leave rather than me asking.

seamus

pc7 wrote: »

Our posts crossed, wow so basically now a landlord has no right to end any tenancy without the main reasons (eg selling, refurbishment, needing it, bad behavior). Really feel the notice is way too excessive.

At the end of a 4-year cycle, a landlord still has the 6-month window where he can terminate without reason.

Tbh, at the end of the day security of tenure for the resident trumps the landlord's desire to do whatever.

The reason our rental market is such a mess is because renters have never traditionally had any reason to feel like a property is theirs. It's always hung over a renter's head that they could be flat-hunting again within a couple of weeks. A landlord being able to give someone 3 months' notice to vacate a property they'd lived in for six years was grossly unfair, so at least it's going someway towards rectifying that.

For the landlords' part they can still avail of shorter notice periods for anti-social behaviour and non-payment of rent, so it's not completely stacked against them.

Legal enforcement and due process is still a big problem for both sides though.

davo2001

Sorry lads, a bit confused now. So does he have to give us 24 weeks notice?!

Ms Doubtfire1

I'm confused too. just looked into the act but can't find anything a layman can understand

pc7

davo2001 wrote: »

Sorry lads, a bit confused now. So does he have to give us 24 weeks notice?!

Yeah looks like you are covered by the changes last year that other poster linked. I'd notify your landlord by phone and writing so you have a record for yourself. Hope you find somewhere new that's suitable.

davo2001

pc7 wrote: »

Yeah looks like you are covered by the changes last year that other poster linked. I'd notify your landlord by phone and writing so you have a record for yourself. Hope you find somewhere new that's suitable.

Thanks, so do I. I can understand that the LL wants to sell as property prices have increased considerably but proper notice is a must and giving us 2 months after nearly 7 years (especially coming upto xmas) kind of leaves us with our back against the wall.

Ms Doubtfire1

davo2001 wrote: »

Thanks, so do I. I can understand that the LL wants to sell as property prices have increased considerably but proper notice is a must.

make sure you can track everything and have proof of everything.

Orion

davo2001 wrote: »

Sorry lads, a bit confused now. So does he have to give us 24 weeks notice?!

Yes he does. I think the landlord is mixing up his rights. He can terminate the tenancy if he plans to sell within 3 months of the tenancy ending - not within 3 months of giving notice. He still has to give you the mandatory notice period.

Cunning Stunt

Hope you get the notice period you deserve OP. It sucks to have to move out of a nice area after 6 years there.
I also hope the landlord is not pulling a fast one on you. It would be interesting to see if he actually will sell and not just put it back on the rental market for a far bigger rental price, given the current rental property 'bubble'.

davo2001

Cunning Stunt wrote: »

Hope you get the notice period you deserve OP. It sucks to have to move out of a nice area after 6 years there.
I also hope the landlord is not pulling a fast one on you. It would be interesting to see if he actually will sell and not just put it back on the rental market for a far bigger rental price, given the current rental property 'bubble'.

This had occured to me also, I'll be looking for proof that he is selling once it "goes on the market". Just goes to show that renting in Ireland is still a mugs game.

pc7

davo2001 wrote: »

Just goes to show that renting in Ireland is still a mugs game.

Honestly as a Landlord it isn't all that sweet sometimes either! Its a dysfunctional system all round. Only winners I see are the really big boy vulture fund types.

Gumbo

davo2001 wrote: »

Sorry lads, a bit confused now. So does he have to give us 24 weeks notice?!

I think the 24 weeks apply to you. It the letter may be considered notice and the 24 weeks starts now. Most sales take a couple of months to complete so it could time well with a sale and your notice.

Cunning Stunt wrote: »

Hope you get the notice period you deserve OP. It sucks to have to move out of a nice area after 6 years there.
I also hope the landlord is not pulling a fast one on you. It would be interesting to see if he actually will sell and not just put it back on the rental market for a far bigger rental price, given the current rental property 'bubble'.

It's worth noting that most decent LL's will not risk this with a long term good tenant for the sake of a few hundred a month extra that gets eaten by tax anyway. One months lost rent with a new tenant means that the extra your charging is lost for that year.

Maybe the OP can confirm if they are paying market rent, or in and around it.

davo2001

kceire wrote: »

Maybe the OP can confirm if they are paying market rent, or in and around it.

Below market rent, he had tried to increase it 3 months ago but I informed him that the last increase was only 12 months previously.

There is a mid terrace house 5 doors up going for €400 pm more than we are paying for an end of terrace house.

dbagman

davo2001 wrote:

We have been living in the house for nearly 7 years, good tenants and always paid on time obviously, we aren't really happy with the amount of notice we have been given (2 months).

To be fair he's only planning to put it on the market in 2 months. It will likely involve at least 2/3 weeks of bidding and viewings before going sale agreed. Even then a straight sale will probs take 2 months minimum. Unlikely any potential new buyer will be in position to collect keys for 5 months all going smoothly. You don't have to be out in 2 months.

Carlos Orange

pc7 wrote: »

Only winners I see are the really big boy vulture fund types.

A big chunk of rent goes to the revenue doesn't it? Seems like they (we?) win too.

Cunning Stunt

davo2001 wrote: »

kceire wrote: »

Maybe the OP can confirm if they are paying market rent, or in and around it.

Below market rent, he had tried to increase it 3 months ago but I informed him that the last increase was only 12 months previously.

There is a mid terrace house 5 doors up going for 400 pm more than we are paying for an end of terrace house.

This is the issue that many tenants could now be facing. My sister is also a long term renter and the rents for other houses around her have now gone up to twice what she is currently paying. She is almost expecting her landlord to knock on her door one of these days and say it's up 'for sale'. Landlords can't make this kind of increase on current tenants. They would have to get them out and start a new rental contract with a new rate.

pc7

psinno wrote: »

A big chunk of rent goes to the revenue doesn't it? Seems like they (we?) win too.

As the vulture funds are businesses I would think they can write a lot off, moreso than a landlord with 1 -4 properties say. But its not something I'm up on so can't really comment.

davo2001

Was thinking of drafting a letter to the LL saying something like:

"As we are covered by part 4 tenency agreement and have been at the property for more than 6 years but less than 7 we are entitled to 24 weeks notice of the landlords intention to sell. We will take yesterdays letter as due notice and the 24 weeks starts from this date (19/10/2016)"

Does this sound OK?

Ms Doubtfire1

davo2001 wrote: »

Was thinkning of drafting a letter to the LL saying something like:

"As we are covered by part 4 tenency agreement and have been at the property for more than 6 years but less than 7 we are entitled to 24 weeks notice of the landlords intention to sell. We will take yesterdays letter as due notice and the 24 weeks starts from this date (19/10/2016)"

Does this sound OK?

only if LL has included the statutory notice that MUST got with a termination- exampled on RTB and threshold.Otherwise notice is illegal

davo2001

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

only if LL has included the statutory notice that MUST got with a termination- exampled on RTB and threshold.Otherwise notice is illegal

The only thing we got was a 1 line letter from the letting agency saying that the LL intends to sell in January and we will be advised of viewing arrangements, thats it.

Graham

davo2001 wrote: »

Was thinkning of drafting a letter to the LL saying something like:

"As we are covered by part 4 tenency agreement and have been at the property for more than 6 years but less than 7 we are entitled to 24 weeks notice of the landlords intention to sell. We will take yesterdays letter as due notice and the 24 weeks starts from this date (19/10/2016)"

Does this sound OK?

I wouldn't say anything about taking yesterdays letter as notice. Leave the landlord to start again and do it properly.

I'm of two minds whether to suggest you also add something to remind the landlord that should a sale not happen then you are entitled to have your tenancy reinstated under the current terms.

pc7

davo2001 wrote: »

The only thing we got was a 1 line letter from the letting agency saying that the LL intends to sell in January and we will be advised of viewing arrangements, thats it.

I think the letting agent is chancing their arm, I'm sure I've read on here that you don't need to facilitate viewings. I'll try find some info, now most tenants would but it should be on your terms, its your home

Ms Doubtfire1

davo2001 wrote: »

The only thing we got was a 1 line letter from the letting agency saying that the LL intends to sell in January and we will be advised of viewing arrangements, thats it.

thats not enough.I'll send the link whats needed in a few secs

Ms Doubtfire1

here:

http://www.rtb.ie/dispute-resolution/dispute-resolution/sample-notices-of-termination

Ms Doubtfire1

this applies to your situation:

http://www.rtb.ie/docs/default-source/notice-of-terminations-landlord-pdf/landlord-intends-to-sell-the-dwelling.pdf?sfvrsn=2

dudara

You are not obliged to facilitate viewings IIRC, but as long as it doesn't inconvenience you, why wouldn't you? And if you do facilitate viewings, you may be able to negotiate some concessions from the landlord for your support.

Also, the landlord is obliged to give you the 24 weeks notice as mentioned above, but it may be possible for you both to negotiate a more mutually beneficial arrangement. One that suits you both.

However, given his recent effort to increase the rent, I suspect that he may be attempting to get you out in order to relet at a higher rate... Worth keeping an eye on.

pc7

yeah seems confirmed here you don't have to allow them and if you do its on your terms

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057552704/2

pc7

dudara wrote: »

However, given his recent effort to increase the rent, I suspect that he may be attempting to get you out in order to relet at a higher rate... Worth keeping an eye on.

That would be my suspicions too, i'd be highlighting in the letter that you may yourself be interested in purchasing same or if a sale falls through and its back on the market as per RTB youd be expecting first refusal.
We look after a property for a family member, they were coming home so we gave required notice based on this and substantial works that were needed. When member came home then they decided to head off again so we contacted tenant as was still within 6 months I think it was to see if they wanted it. They didn't and its subsequently rented to new tenants.

davo2001

Funny thing is that we wouldn't mind paying more rent if needs be, i just cannot stand these back handed tatics.

Thanks for the advice so far everyone, undoubtly I will have more questions, just need to take it all in.

Clearlier

davo2001 wrote: »

The only thing we got was a 1 line letter from the letting agency saying that the LL intends to sell in January and we will be advised of viewing arrangements, thats it.

Sometimes it's worth asking what seems like an obvious question. If the above is all of the information that you've been given are you sure that the landlord is looking to move you out? I know that it's relatively rare (and not generally the best way to go about getting the maximum price) but occasionally landlords do sell houses with a tenant already in it. They probably are looking to give you notice but it's worth making sure.

Fian

seamus wrote: »

The rules changed last year so that the clock didn't "reset" at the end of a 4-year cycle. Someone who's been in the property between 6-7 years is now entitled to 168 days (24 weeks) notice.

This seems odd, it incentives landlords to evict a tenant at the end of a four year cycle, which they can do without specifying a reason.

davo2001

Clearlier wrote: »

Sometimes it's worth asking what seems like an obvious question. If the above is all of the information that you've been given are you sure that the landlord is looking to move you out? I know that it's relatively rare (and not generally the best way to go about getting the maximum price) but occasionally landlords do sell houses with a tenant already in it. They probably are looking to give you notice but it's worth making sure.

I have my doubts that he is looking to get us out to raise the rent myself. He bought at the wrong time, end of 2006 when prices were at there highest, now that prices have increased my suspicion is that he just wants to get rid of the place and cut his losses (or break even).

davo2001

davo2001 wrote: »

Was thinking of drafting a letter to the LL saying something like:

"As we are covered by part 4 tenency agreement and have been at the property for more than 6 years but less than 7 we are entitled to 24 weeks notice of the landlords intention to sell. We will take yesterdays letter as due notice and the 24 weeks starts from this date (19/10/2016)"

Does this sound OK?

Just to point out the LL doesn't need to notify you of his intention to see, he needs to provide you with a termination notice for the reason of selling and give you the required notice.

He could sell the place tomorrow if he wanted but you wouldn't have to move out until your notice period expires.

cython

kceire wrote: »

I think the 24 weeks apply to you. It the letter may be considered notice and the 24 weeks starts now. Most sales take a couple of months to complete so it could time well with a sale and your notice.





It's worth noting that most decent LL's will not risk this with a long term good tenant for the sake of a few hundred a month extra that gets eaten by tax anyway. One months lost rent with a new tenant means that the extra your charging is lost for that year.

Maybe the OP can confirm if they are paying market rent, or in and around it.

Since the OP was served an illegal notice, it literally has no standing, and as Graham has alluded to, the clock will only start when correct and legal notice is served. The illegal notice as provided counts for nothing.

GGTrek

davo2001 wrote: »

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

do you have a fixed term lease and if yes what term?

We had signed a new lease in April 2015 but it was only for a year

You have been given a ton of wrong legal advice in this thread by people who clearly do not pay attention to details. The main detail the all did not consider: your current lease started in April 2015. It does not matter that you have been staying 7 years! Your landlord was generous with 2 months notice, since the correct notice for tenancy between 1 and 2 years is just 42 days.
Now I would also suggest you to read section 34 and section 62 of the RTB 2004 as amended in 2015. Your landlord will need to provide you a statutory declaration (which in layman's terms means signed on front of a solicitor) that he intends to sell within the next 3 months. There is a sentence of the High Court this year on the matter.
My strong non legal advice: start looking for alternative accommodation now, it is going to be very ugly if you go the legal way and if he sells he has a massive economic incentive to kick you out.

Graham

GGTrek wrote: »

The main detail the all did not consider: your current lease started in April 2015. It does not matter that you have been staying 7 years!

A lease of any length/flavour/colour cannot lessen or remove the rights a tenant has acquired under Part 4.

You appear to be confusing the length of a tenancy with the length of the lease.

FIXED TERM TENANCIES AND PART 4
The existence of a fixed term tenancy does not preclude the operation of Part 4. Part 4 runs with a fixed term tenancy, so that the continuous occupation by a tenant under a fixed term tenancy for a period of 6 months, means the tenant shall, as in the normal course, become entitled to the protections of a Part 4 tenancy. In cases of fixed term tenancies however, the rights under Part 4 only apply to the extent that they benefit the tenant over and above the rights afforded to him or her under the terms of the fixed term tenancy.

foggy_lad

pc7 wrote: »

Yeah looks like you are covered by the changes last year that other poster linked. I'd notify your landlord by phone and writing so you have a record for yourself. Hope you find somewhere new that's suitable.

davo2001 Do not take this advice, you are under no obligation to correct the landlords mistake.

davo2001 wrote: »

Was thinking of drafting a letter to the LL saying something like:

"As we are covered by part 4 tenency agreement and have been at the property for more than 6 years but less than 7 we are entitled to 24 weeks notice of the landlords intention to sell. We will take yesterdays letter as due notice and the 24 weeks starts from this date (19/10/2016)"

Does this sound OK?

Don't do this!

The landlord has not given proper notice yet and if they do it may be a wrong or incorrect notice period making the notice invalid. You can stay longer by not making him aware of his mistakes or not telling him the correct notice period that he must give you.

davo2001 wrote: »

The only thing we got was a 1 line letter from the letting agency saying that the LL intends to sell in January and we will be advised of viewing arrangements, thats it.

You can refuse all viewings if you wish and can make inspections by the landlord and estate agents very awkward if you wish. it is your home and they can't just walk in the door without your permission and agreement on the time and duration of any visits or viewings