Strike Action - Schools looking for people to supervise classes?

jamie124

Hi There,
I have just seen on Facebook that schools will be looking for people to supervise classes while all secondary school teachers go on strike?
I am just wondering what type of people can take part in this? (I'm guessing substitute teachers would be on strike too??) - Parents?/College Students?
Could I apply to supervise classes or do I need to be a qualified teacher or what?

Thanks

Westeros

jamie124 wrote: »

Hi There,
I have just seen on Facebook that schools will be looking for people to supervise classes while all secondary school teachers go on strike?
I am just wondering what type of people can take part in this? (I'm guessing substitute teachers would be on strike too??) - Parents?/College Students?
Could I apply to supervise classes or do I need to be a qualified teacher or what?

Thanks

Judging by that article there, no experience/qualifications are necessary.
They seem to be targeting parents first of all - sending home letters and application forms. No harm in asking a school nearby if you're interested though.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/department-to-pay-parents-to-supervise-students-during-strike-1.2830440

jamie124

Westeros wrote: »

Judging by that article there, no experience/qualifications are necessary.
They seem to be targeting parents first of all - sending home letters and application forms. No harm in asking a school nearby if you're interested though.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/department-to-pay-parents-to-supervise-students-during-strike-1.2830440

Excellent thanks very much! will give it a try should I email them?

Westeros

jamie124 wrote: »

Excellent thanks very much! will give it a try should I email them?

You could email them but to be sure of getting your word in I'd call in to them and put your name forward. I'd imagine the secretaries are under pressure at the moment with all that's going on with the strike and the chances of your email being overlooked is probably high. Even a phone call could be enough, at least you'll know for sure then that your name has gone forward.
It may take a while for that to get up and running, and you may need Garda Vetting but definitely no qualifications/training needed.

Starkystark

I can not believe these questions are being asked. I appreciate that there's a hunger for work etc. but the fact that it's a free for all people to apply to supervise is ridiculous and feeds into that garbage that "oh anyone can teach".

And to add also to the fact that the teaching council and department have been so stringent on not paying teachers unless they are registered with the TC.

hytrogen

Garda vetting has to come into play before you'd be cleared to work with minors in any institution now

The_Valeyard

They can have a go with the LCA's and see how they get on.

mtoutlemonde

Starkystark wrote: »

I can not believe these questions are being asked. I appreciate that there's a hungry for work etc. but the fact that it's a free for all people to apply to supervise is ridiculous and feeds into that garbage that "oh anyone can teach".

As I wrote in another thread:
It will definitely be an eye opener depending on where Jamie gets the S&S especially when the students have no homework/books/interest/tough school and someone near enough/the same age as a Leaving Cert student telling him/her to be quiet and do some work. I wonder would Richard and Pascal apply for a few days?

Just wondering is this going to create a them and us situation whereby the teachers have their lunch in the staff room and let S&S recruits (or as someone said in another thread - scabs) supervise the students while we eat our lunch/have a 'free' class?

spurious

Starkystark wrote: »

I can not believe these questions are being asked. I appreciate that there's a hungry for work etc. but the fact that it's a free for all people to apply to supervise is ridiculous and feeds into that garbage that "oh anyone can teach".

On the other hand, let them have six classes in a row of 'We're supposed to have P.E. and you're not a real teacher anyway' and see how easy they find it.

Westeros

Starkystark wrote: »

I can not believe these questions are being asked. I appreciate that there's a hungry for work etc. but the fact that it's a free for all people to apply to supervise is ridiculous and feeds into that garbage that "oh anyone can teach".

As a teacher I don't necessarily agree with it either, just simply answering the questions that Jamie has asked. Without doubt it's going to feed into the "anyone can teach" and "teachers have it handy".
As far as I can see it's going to be mayhem in the class rooms with parents/supervisors sitting in with a group of students that have nothing to do. How they expect to keep them under control is beyond me but it looks like it'll go ahead.
Who do they run to when there's a problem in the classroom then? Teachers? Principal? It's just not going to work.

mtoutlemonde

spurious wrote: »

On the other hand, let them have six classes in a row of 'We're supposed to have P.E. and you're not a real teacher anyway' and see how easy they find it.

I was listening to Sean O'Rourke today and they obviously had a discussion regarding the strike before I tuned in because a listener text in to say that in the last strike outsiders were brought in to the listeners school and he said that they didn't have a clue and they ran rings around them. I can see big problems with this if the outsiders are brought in - I'd want a lot more than a measly €38 for doing this - torture. Subbing can be a nightmare for teachers but at least they have been taught / have experience / have their own techniques to deal with challenging behaviour - what does the average Joe know about things like this? If they do this, I think I might try being a guard for a while - sure it's no bother - anyone can do it!!!

byhookorbycrook

The people taking this work will be paid €38 per hour, a far cry from what teachers would get.

They are also strike breaking.

It will be interesting to see the repercussions- firstly as to how garda clearance will work, seeing as how many qualified teachers and SNAs are caught in the backlog?

Next, are the people taking these posts going to be able to enforce discipline (See Spurious above)?

Are these people used to addressing the needs of children with SEN?

Are they aware that some teenagers are ready and willing to take advantage and are these "supervisors" aware of the possibility of allegations being made against them?

spurious

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Are they aware that some teenagers are ready and willing to take advantage and are these "supervisors" aware of the possibility of allegations being made against them?

The ever popular 'I'll say ya touched me and she'll back me up'.

It's not all 'take out your books now girls and study'.

mtoutlemonde

Westeros wrote: »

As a teacher I don't necessarily agree with it either, just simply answering the questions that Jamie has asked. Without doubt it's going to feed into the "anyone can teach" and "teachers have it handy".
As far as I can see it's going to be mayhem in the class rooms with parents/supervisors sitting in with a group of students that have nothing to do. How they expect to keep them under control is beyond me but it looks like it'll go ahead.
Who do they run to when there's a problem in the classroom then? Teachers? Principal? It's just not going to work.

I'd say the door

punisher5112

Nothing surprises me anymore. Will all the ones on the scratch that always say they would do any job for half the amount come running for the chance to get one over. Not a chance.

Nobody else should even think of getting involved it shouldn't have to come to strike action but it seems the normal thing to do now to Get anyone to listen or work it out.

mtoutlemonde

punisher5112 wrote: »

Nothing surprises me anymore. Will all the ones on the scratch that always say they would do any job for half the amount come running for the chance to get one over. Not a chance.

Nobody else should even think of getting involved it shouldn't have to come to strike action but it seems the normal thing to do now to Get anyone to listen or work it out.

If no one applies - it could happen if the department of social welfare get involved - they send people on courses - I'm sure they can send them to do this work.

byhookorbycrook

If you are being paid to do it, then you need to sort it out. ASTI teachers aren't paid for it, so why would they intervene...
Part of me says let them at it, let them see the reality of the bare bones of supervising, never mind teaching the students something.
But a large part of me says why were people not asked to drive Luas or buses- are we saying those jobs are more skilled than teaching?Apparently the govt. thinks so.

byhookorbycrook

So who interviews these people?If it all goes pear shaped (and it's pretty likely it will) who is responsible???

seavill

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

The people taking this work will be paid €38 per hour, a far cry from what teachers would get.

They are also strike breaking.

It will be interesting to see the repercussions- firstly as to how garda clearance will work, seeing as how many qualified teachers and SNAs are caught in the backlog?

Next, are the people taking these posts going to be able to enforce discipline (See Spurious above)?

Are these people used to addressing the needs of children with SEN?

Are they aware that some teenagers are ready and willing to take advantage and are these "supervisors" aware of the possibility of allegations being made against them?

As far as I know (I think I read it somewhere either today or yesterday) it is €38 for the day not per hour, it works out at 2 hours work for the supervision, and there was something about it being slightly extra then for time over the 2 hours I'll try find it

Edit
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/we-want-you-government-in-desperate-recruitment-bid-for-parents-to-run-schools-35142390.html

deiseindublin

Who will actually put this rota together though? In a mostly ASTI school, what person is going to take on the role of chief organiser for this? ASTI principals can't, DPs can't, APs can't.

Who will be sorting it out? Compiling rotas, giving classroom lists, maps of the buildings, rules/regulations, break times, compiling claim forms? There's a hell of a lot of work involved.

I'm baffled as to who will be doing it.

2xj3hplqgsbkym

deiseindublin wrote: »

Who will actually put this rota together though? In a mostly ASTI school, what person is going to take on the role of chief organiser for this? ASTI principals can't, DPs can't, APs can't.

Who will be sorting it out? Compiling rotas, giving classroom lists, maps of the buildings, rules/regulations, break times, compiling claim forms? There's a hell of a lot of work involved.

I'm baffled as to who will be doing it.

BOM?

mtoutlemonde

seavill wrote: »

As far as I know (I think I read it somewhere either today or yesterday) it is €38 for the day not per hour, it works out at 2 hours work for the supervision, and there was something about it being slightly extra then for time over the 2 hours I'll try find it

Edit
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/we-want-you-government-in-desperate-recruitment-bid-for-parents-to-run-schools-35142390.html

I think it's €19 per hour after

coillsaille

All one has to do is read what has been said in this thread already to know it would be absolute chaos. Personally I think it would be a great development for the future of the teacher-parent relationship if parents and other non-teachers undertook supervision for a few weeks. But I just can't see BOMs agreeing to go ahead with it. The lessons of the past were well learned on this one.

Iused2likebusts

I really hope this goes ahead. It can only be a positive for teachers. The students will run rings around almost anybody that does it . Whoever ends up doing it will have earned their money that's for sure. Sitting in a room with 20+ teenagers that will have no respect for you and trying to keep them under control when everybody will know that there is nothing you can really do. Its only going to end one way.

Jamfa

The same thing happened back in 2003 and there was no drama in my school. The students were supervised by an adult who came in and everyone just got on with their work. Things could be different this time but more because of lack of vetted people than the inability of a responsible adult to supervise a class.

Iused2likebusts

Jamfa wrote: »

The same thing happened back in 2003 and there was no drama in my school. The students were supervised by an adult who came in and everyone just got on with their work. Things could be different this time but more because of lack of vetted people than the inability of a responsible adult to supervise a class.

All depends on the school the majority of schools, classes won't be like that.

deiseindublin

Alena Scary Mush wrote: »

BOM?

I just can't see it Alena Scary Mush. There's a lot more involved not with vetting and procedures have tightened up a lot. BOM members are hard pressed enough for time and find it a big commitment, and a lot of nominal input too. Sorting out supervisors, rotas, claim forms etc is definitely more than they signed up for.

cupcake queen

deiseindublin wrote: »

I just can't see it rosebush. There's a lot more involved not with vetting and procedures have tightened up a lot. BOM members are hard pressed enough for time and find it a big commitment, and a lot of nominal input too. Sorting out supervisors, rotas, claim forms etc is definitely more than they signed up for.

Also they would need to do the rostering on a daily basis as absences arise. No Asti board member could do it and the others on the board would not be staff members and so would not on the premises day to day. Dont see how it would work.

evolving_doors

Alena Scary Mush wrote: »

BOM?

Yup I reckon in most schools it'll probably be Da BOM (maybe non-union members sit on the BOM, retired teachers who may have left the union!).

evolving_doors

Jamfa wrote: »

The same thing happened back in 2003 and there was no drama in my school. The students were supervised by an adult who came in and everyone just got on with their work. Things could be different this time but more because of lack of vetted people than the inability of a responsible adult to supervise a class.

I'd say there might be quite a few NQT's who would have vetting in other schools so it mightn't be too difficult to update them to a new school (as opposed to 1st timers)... then again, what's to say that the vetting will be as straightforward and expeditious as it alwaysnever is? Gardai are refusing to access the pulse system on the 21st and 28th of october... then strike 4,11,18,25th November. Is the vetting section separate?.

So maybe it's in the Govt's interest to fix the gardai ASAP as it affects their plans for a speedy successful Substitution and Supervision Substitution scheme.

mirrorwall14

I don't understand why they don't just pay the ASTI for the sand S. They are going to end up paying more for it in hassle and wages and paying them off would remove one of the ASTIs biggest bargaining chips. It's ludicrous. Fight the ASTI on NQTs sure. Fight them on work they should be paid for? Mental

Xaracatz

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

I really hope this goes ahead. It can only be a positive for teachers. The students will run rings around almost anybody that does it . Whoever ends up doing it will have earned their money that's for sure. Sitting in a room with 20+ teenagers that will have no respect for you and trying to keep them under control when everybody will know that there is nothing you can really do. Its only going to end one way.

Is it really that bad with school attenders these days? Genuine question.

Iused2likebusts

Xaracatz wrote: »

Is it really that bad with school attenders these days? Genuine question.

There is a big difference between teaching a class and supervising a class. Luckily I'd have no major issues with teaching my classes. You know them , they know you and things run fairly smoothly. When I supervise a class its a bit different as you are entering a room with students who you don't teach and don't know and vice versa. I've had no major issues but its a lot more difficult than teaching. The problem for an outsider coming in is the students will have no respect for them, they will soon realise there is no real sanction the outsider can give them. You can be guaranteed in the majority of schools students will push the boundaries. The supervisor in the majority of cases will not know strategies for classroom management. I can see a couple of major incidents happening with students recording these on their phones.

evolving_doors

Xaracatz wrote: »

Is it really that bad with school attenders these days? Genuine question.

I couldn't generalise but I suppose the main thing is that it only takes one student to cause a critical incident in 1 school. So you can do the stats on 15000 odd teachers supervising their own students compared to 15000 strangers off the street.

Even one incident and the media would be all over it. Then the school gets a bad name (it'll inevitably come out on 'local' social media).

It's like bullying. I was talking to a guy about a certain school and he said 'oh yeah that place is notorious for bullying '. Turns out it happened 15 years ago, half that staff have retired,2 streams of students had left, and new principal (I knew a teacher in that school). But once an incident gets out its toxic to the school, which isn't fair imo.

So hiring a load of strangers! It might be grand for 99%.. Etc..

jamie124

Ok... So on the news they are now saying that "schools will be forced to close"???
So obviously I'm guessing this supervising won't be going ahead now then?

evolving_doors

jamie124 wrote: »

Ok... So on the news they are now saying that "schools will be forced to close"???
So obviously I'm guessing this supervising won't be going ahead now then?

Parents council said no.
JMB says no.

So if the dept want to organise it then let em at it.
I think the govt. Are starting to realise that teachers actually do something during S&S, and it takes knowledge to do it. Sadly They've confused teaching with babysitting your niece or nephew for a few hours on Saturday night.

Mardy Bum

Jamfa wrote: »

The same thing happened back in 2003 and there was no drama in my school. The students were supervised by an adult who came in and everyone just got on with their work. Things could be different this time but more because of lack of vetted people than the inability of a responsible adult to supervise a class.

One of the few schools in the country so. You are lucky to work there.

jamie124

Does anyone know if Principal/VP's will be present during those days?? If SOME schools remain open and want people to supervise.

A few people think I'm completely bonkers for thinking of applying to this!!

political analyst

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

There is a big difference between teaching a class and supervising a class. Luckily I'd have no major issues with teaching my classes. You know them , they know you and things run fairly smoothly. When I supervise a class its a bit different as you are entering a room with students who you don't teach and don't know and vice versa. I've had no major issues but its a lot more difficult than teaching. The problem for an outsider coming in is the students will have no respect for them, they will soon realise there is no real sanction the outsider can give them. You can be guaranteed in the majority of schools students will push the boundaries. The supervisor in the majority of cases will not know strategies for classroom management. I can see a couple of major incidents happening with students recording these on their phones.

Technically, it's not supervision of a class; it's substitution for a teacher who is absent. Watching over pupils outside at the 11 o'clock break and lunchtime is supervision.

evolving_doors

jamie124 wrote: »

Does anyone know if Principal/VP's will be present during those days?? If SOME schools remain open and want people to supervise.

A few people think I'm completely bonkers for thinking of applying to this!!

Well TUI advises members not to do the duties of ASTI teachers, so I'd presume the same would apply for Principals/VP's who are members of ASTI!

jamie124

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Well TUI advises members not to do the duties of ASTI teachers, so I'd presume the same would apply for Principals/VP's who are members of ASTI!

So for example, if a Student is constantly disruptive or gets physical in class, can the person subbing in (non-teacher) send them to the principal or get the principal??

punisher5112

jamie124 wrote: »

So for example, if a Student is constantly disruptive or gets physical in class, can the person subbing in (non-teacher) send them to the principal or get the principal??

They wouldn't be allowed leave the class room unattended.

Why anyone would get involved in this is beyond me. Too many do gooders.

deiseindublin

Wouldn't call them do gooders, more mé féiners.

@jamie - supervising any class is hard at the best of times, never mind when:
* You don't know the school/system
* you don't know the students
* you're the same age as some of those you're supervising and
* you throw in the animosity created by the industrial action

I'd run a mile if I were you. Realistically no BOM would employ an 18 year old with no life experience for such a gig anyway.

km79

jamie124 wrote: »

So for example, if a Student is constantly disruptive or gets physical in class, can the person subbing in (non-teacher) send them to the principal or get the principal??

Every school has a code of behaviour
Every sub should be familiar with it and the processes to follow
None will. They will take the easy way out and pass the buck.
Teachers don't do this so supervisors should not either.They will be getting WELL paid to supervise and substitute. They should do both properly but won't when the reality hits home .
It will be a disaster . There will be a constant line of unsupervised students at P/DP/YH door

r93kaey5p2izun

jamie124 wrote: »

So for example, if a Student is constantly disruptive or gets physical in class, can the person subbing in (non-teacher) send them to the principal or get the principal??

That would depend on the Code of Behaviour and Code of Discipline in the school in question. In any school, no, you can't leave the room for any reason. In my school, no, you could not send the disruptive student anywhere out of the room for any reason, including to principal. You could send a reliable student for principal or DP in an emergency. A persistently disruptive srudent is not an emergency. A student getting physical would depend. In my school physical aggression that does not escalate would not be considered an emergency, just something to follow up afterwards. It has to be an actual ongoing fight before management will intervene at the time. This is a daily occurence in my school.

In some schools physical aggression and fights are very rare - they may see it as an emergency worthy of immediate management intervention.

My school won't be affected by the industrial action but the nearest school to us will. They have the same issues as us and operate a similar policy. Any supervisors going in there will be facing a very tough job!

WindomEarle

The people taking this work will be paid €38 per hour, a far cry from what teachers would get.

They are also strike breaking.

It will be interesting to see the repercussions- firstly as to how garda clearance will work, seeing as how many qualified teachers and SNAs are caught in the backlog?

Next, are the people taking these posts going to be able to enforce discipline (See Spurious above)?

Are these people used to addressing the needs of children with SEN?

Are they aware that some teenagers are ready and willing to take advantage and are these "supervisors" aware of the possibility of allegations being made against them?

This x 100.

It's a bizarre proposal. Let's not skim over the strike-breaking issue. This is huge - no Government have attempted to break a strike in this way, even Thatcher or Cameron as far as I know. This will have a huge impact on the IR environment in the public sector.

On the practicalities, it is difficult to see it working. Will there be training? Who will do rotas? Are the Dept breaching Data Protection laws by sending details to parents? Are the Dept breaching Equality laws by sending details only to parents (family status grounds)? What happens when a parent doesn't show up?

In fact, maybe those who support the strike should apply, go along with the process, and just not show up on the day.

Dylan94

So do they just plan on having a huge number of the new 'staff' in the school just incase there is supervision to be done?

What if its a bad day and 6 teachers call in sick. They have no one to cover the class? What would happen then?

jamie124

I wouldn't leave the room at all until the end of class and then go to the principal myself... Surely there would have to be someone in charge above everyone else on the days of strike? e.g. - the principal or vice principal?
When I was in school a few teachers actually left the room and left the whole class on their own for a good 10-15 mins!! The teacher would say "oh I'll be back in a minute, I've to photocopy something" ??? (I don't agree with this, this "photocopying" should have been done before classes started! - anyways, I'm sure teaching is a super busy job so you can't think of everything but you should not leave a class unattended.
I am aware that this would be fairly challenging and yes I am only fresh out of school myself but this is something that I would be very interested in... Even just for the experience....But as a few said i'm only 18 so a school might not take me on at all.

evolving_doors

Dylan94 wrote: »

So do they just plan on having a huge number of the new 'staff' in the school just incase there is supervision to be done?

Yes, that should make for an 'awkward' atmosphere in the staff room!

Dylan94 wrote: »

What if its a bad day and 6 teachers call in sick. They have no one to cover the class? What would happen then?

Just appoint one of the 6th yrs who's over 18!

Ya look the Parents council says no, the JMB says they wont facilitate it. TUI say to members not to cooperate.
So nobody knows what the govt. will do.. it'll just make for a nice bit of paperwork for someone in the dept. Not to mention the amount of application forms sent to be garda vetted (will the gardai prioritise these to be fast-tracked! Will the Gardai be working even!)

Lord TSC

Lads, what's the story with current sub teachers?

My brother isn't in a union, but gets a text every few days that there are classes to be subbed, come on in, etc. He gets a few days a week now.

With the way things are, will he get classes before the non-teachers being brought in? Will he keep getting paid the same as before?

Mardy Bum

Lord TSC wrote: »

Lads, what's the story with current sub teachers?

My brother isn't in a union, but gets a text every few days that there are classes to be subbed, come on in, etc. He gets a few days a week now.

With the way things are, will he get classes before the non-teachers being brought in? Will he keep getting paid the same as before?

Yes he will cover certified leave like he did. Is his school even bringing in non teachers, a lot are not.