Do married fathers envy or pity childless single men and vice versa?

brickmauser

I'm single and have no real interest in settling down and no real interest in having kids either.
My single mates and relations sometimes tell me they are envious of married men with kids and my married friends who have kids tell me sometimes they envy me for being single.
Does anyone get this a lot?
I usually tell them to shut up and watch the game.
What do you do?

Jimbob1977

I'm married with three sons.

There are times that I envy single friends who could take a short holiday or do whatever they wished at the drop of a hat.

I used to watch lots of football on TV. With a young family, I have virtually no time or opportunity now. Scooby Doo >> Monday Night Football.

However, I also feel a sympathy for childless people (by choice). When they are old or 'dead and gone', there is no legacy. Nothing.

Walter H Price

Ive been with my OH now for a lil over 5 years since we were 20 , we've lived together for the last 4 years , got engaged last november and getting married next November (2017). we are looking at buying a house , have adopted 3 cats and have decide we will probilby start trying for children as soon as were married and in our own place. i be keen on have 3 or 4 by the time were in our mid thirties the latest

I love being settled , dont miss night clubs or anything not a big drinkiner anymore and would rather sit in on friday night with my Fiance a sh1t movie and a takeaway. i've always wanted kids and hope to be a dad sooner rather then later. i still have a good bunch of mates most of them in relationships and still go away for lads weeknds to the football or rugby , have season tickets for Boh's , Leinster , Dublin GAA and Irealnd (Rugby and Football), i've been nearly at 1 game of something every week all summer and been over to the UK to see Villa twice already this season (once with the boys) once with my OH and going again with herself in December.

Still get away on a few holdiays a year at least two (one winter one summer) and a few city breaks in between. I done my J1 , interrailing , Summer in South Africa working with animals etc... when i was in my late teens early twenties.

I don't feel like i'm missing out on anything by being in a relationship or that id be in anyway freer if i was still single , living in a house share or at home like the lads who are. i Wouldnt say i pitty them because most are happy with their lifestyle as i was when i was a single college student, but i no looking at it it just wouldn't be for me anymore.

I can totally understand though how people who get together young and dont travel or live abroad or find shared intrests and stuff can start to feel like maybe they have missed or a missing out on something. but im more than happy with my lot.

GLaDOS

I imagine it depends on an individual's circumstances. While many are happily married with kids and others are single by choice and want to keep it that way, there are plenty who would like to start a family but haven't due to not finding the right partner or infertility issues. Similarly, there are plenty of men (And women, naturally) trapped in loveless marriages, staying together for the sake of the kids.

There always the "grass is greener" effect as well.

Advbrd

2 kids. Couldn't imagine life without them. I did not really appreciate what selfless love was until the kids arrived even though the little bastd@rds will one day put me in a home.

Dial Hard

There's a difference between childless and child-free.

Childless people may well envy those who have children. Child-free people tend not to.

HandsomeDan

No. Pity the nicer ones, who I reckon would have been good with kids, and benefited from the experience.

Dravokivich

Seems like a loaded question there in the OP.

For what it's worth, I'm a single father. So I'm not quite the target audience for this.

Throughout my family I've only got 1 cousin that is also a single parent. It's quite a contrast in how things are done from a parenting point of view, when you notice within your extended family that parents as couples (married and unmarried) and they don't tend to notice how they work together and with that are unaware of how hard it can be for one person to do that all themselves.

Do I envy married/coupled parents? Not really, I'm happy that they have an established platform to work together from. Whether or not they notice it.

Do I envy single people without kids? Not really. To me this then tries to quantify doubt about having a child in the first place. Then to minimize the value of that doubt, or bring it to 0 so as to justify having a child. Which I perceive as both a pointless exercise and an insult to the child.

Boom_Bap

I've 2 kids now and what you would call settled down. I love this life.
But I did used to have that free and single life, it was great and had a blast. But evolving into a proper relationship with kids was a perfect transition for me.
I do sometimes miss not being able to go somewhere without having to consider others or make arrangements, but that's a sacrifice I'm happy to make and don't dwell on missing anything.

silverharp

Im married with kids and while I wouldn't change anything I get that its getting more difficult. Its like the joke about Homer Simpson being cast as a loser character in the 80's but he has a stay at home wife , house and kids and hes been in space , he is knocking it out of the ballpark in 2016. :pac:

Dating culture seems to have objectively gone down hill in the last decade or 2 . I would certainly advise my son when he is older that hes under no pressure from me to have grandkids and I'd prefer him to be happy rather than making a mistake and being put through the grinder through a bad choice.

smacl

I've two daughters, 13 & 17. I totally envied my single friends during the baby years what with sleep deprivation, creche fees (we both work) and hungover nappy changes while watching Tellytubbies. Once that hurdle was jumped I find I really enjoy their company more and more with each passing year and know I'll be totally gutted when they get to the moving out stage. Doing fun stuff as a family is such a treat, e.g. dressing up for the Rocky Horror Show a couple of weeks back and doing the timewarp with loads of other dodgy types, and we're at that stage where we all look after each other pretty well. And clichéd as it is, grandkids would be a hoot at some stage in the future.

Wibbs

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

However, I also feel a sympathy for childless people (by choice). When they are old or 'dead and gone', there is no legacy. Nothing.

Depends on how one looks at it too mind you. A) when you're gone you're gone. The dead have no regrets. Name all your great grandparents. See how quickly that "legacy" vanished? C) What's your legacy to them(even if they could be aware of it)? Basic existence? Sure one of your descendants might be another Einstein, or Chairman Mao for that matter, but the countless billions that make up the majority will never be.

Four Phucs Ache

I'm a married father of 2. Wouldn't change it for the stars.I honestly cannot imagine life without them.In my head I'm still a single 24 year old but truthfully I've become my wife's 3rd child and I'm feckin delighted.
My 2 best friends are 5 and 8 now and the things we don't let mammy know about keeps me sane.

I used to envy single men who had social and financial freedom but it passed pretty quickly for me and doesn't bother me at all now.Peoples perspectives and outlook change with circumstance .A nightclub is now the last place I would be found in.

Now?..Give me a 200 foot tree to climb with my kids and a good coffee for when I get down.

frostyjacks

I'm minded of a quote from Woody Harrison's character in True Detective: "Past a certain age, a man without a family can be a bad thing".

Wouldn't swap it for the childfree life at all, they're a blessing.

Cookie_Monster

thats an unanswerable question as it entirely depends on the individual

newport2

I'm a childless guy, although not by choice. Lots of men envy the freedom and time I have, but they certainly don't envy the fact I don't have children. Two totally different things.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

_Brian

I don't understand why you would envy or pity one or the other. Usually they are just both stages along ones timeline, both to be enjoyed and both a challenge.
I prefer being my older self as a father of two, I would enjoy it more if I had good health.

PaddyWilliams

I'm 35, single, no kids. I do worry that I may never be a father, but I'm not just going to try get a girl pregnant for the sake of it. I'd love to have kids and be in a stable relationship too. Luck just hasn't shone on me yet.

I've no kids
2 cats
5 pinball machines and a golf GTi (3door)
The thought of having kids strikes fear into my heart...........

intheclouds

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

However, I also feel a sympathy for childless people (by choice). When they are old or 'dead and gone', there is no legacy. Nothing.

I don't understand this? What legacy? When you're dead and gone you won't know or care about any legacy. No matter how many kids you have there is nothing left of you when you're dead. Sure, you might be remembered for a generation (or even 2), but thats it, then you're just another name on a headstone like all the dead gone before you.

smacl

Wibbs wrote: »

when you're gone you're gone. The dead have no regrets.

That would be my take on it for sure, but very often getting dead involves growing old, becoming increasingly less able, dealing with failing health and dying, which can be pretty fraught. Having some young people around you at this stage that really care deeply for your well-being and happiness is something that's not on the pension plan and can't readily be bought. We went through this with my dad last year who we brought back to live with us before he died and are currently going through it with my mother in-law. Old folks, not unlike kids, take a shed load of looking after and most of us will be old folks at some stage.

lazybones32

I've been told by many married workmates that there's a lot to be said for staying single, well, not getting married. Apparently your girlfriend and wife are two different women even when it's the same person.
I've rarely heard the single guys speak of jealousy or envy but most would like to find a woman to settle with.
I'm hearing the woes of the lads who are fighting a lot with their partners and it's made more complicated because there is a child involved. They give the impression that their child is worth sticking with a relationship that they would otherwise have walked away from by now.

People might envy the romanticised view of singledom/married-life that they have but reality is never as pleasant.

hairyslug

God I miss holidays but that could have been down to the amount of drink taken. I don't drink anymore so holidays without kids would be very different. That and going out for a surprise lunch with the wife (which is possible but time restraints limit it). Apart from that I don't envy my childless time.
But everyone is different, I'm sure there are plenty of father's out there who never wanted kids but do they best they can in the situation they are in now, but always look back and see how things could have been.

sbsquarepants

I'm not married but I have kids, ranging from adults to babies - and whereas I wouldn't pity anyone without kids (I couldn't care less what others do with their lives) I certainly wouldn't envy them.
I can genuinely say that having kids has been the highlight of my life - well worth sacrificing any of the things I had to forego because of them.

Wibbs

smacl wrote: »

That would be my take on it for sure, but very often getting dead involves growing old, becoming increasingly less able, dealing with failing health and dying, which can be pretty fraught. Having some young people around you at this stage that really care deeply for your well-being and happiness is something that's not on the pension plan and can't readily be bought. We went through this with my dad last year who we brought back to live with us before he died and are currently going through it with my mother in-law. Old folks, not unlike kids, take a shed load of looking after and most of us will be old folks at some stage.

So children as an insurance policy against ageing? Bit selfish maybe? Never mind that - and I've seen this up close - hospitals and old folks homes are full of forgotten people and quite the number of the elderly living outside such places are left alone and only visited by the family on high days and holy days. Fair play to you and yours for being there, but an awful lot of people out there aren't. It can be a coin toss even with larger families. And that's before we get to the burden this places on next of kin.

o1s1n

BrownFinger wrote: »

I've no kids
2 cats
5 pinball machines and a golf GTi (3door)
The thought of having kids strikes fear into my heart...........

Any time my friends talk about their kids, I tend to make similar parallels about my cat.

The thing is, I'm genuinely not trying to troll them and only realise what I've done after the words leave my mouth. It doesn't go down too well :pac:

smacl

Wibbs wrote: »

So children as an insurance policy against ageing? Bit selfish maybe? Never mind that - and I've seen this up close - hospitals and old folks homes are full of forgotten people and quite the number of the elderly living outside such places are left alone and only visited by the family on high days and holy days. Fair play to you and yours for being there, but an awful lot of people out there aren't. It can be a coin toss even with larger families. And that's before we get to the burden this places on next of kin.

There is no insurance policy against ageing, you don't insure against a certainty. Yes, there are a lot of old folks more or less abandoned in hospitals and old folks homes, and many of them have families, I've seen plenty of this too. Looking after an infirmed parent in your home is a big ask and would only really work if you got on well with your folks. That said, I don't think it is selfish to think that those you love, and would really do anything for, will reciprocate this, but there's rather more to that than just being a parent. There are also very many reasons why you couldn't have an elderly parent live with you, but rather fewer as to why you wouldn't spend time with them. From what I've seen, loneliness is one of the bigger issues particularly with declining mobility. Could be a case of 'who needs kids when you've boards.ie' but I'm not banking on it.

intheclouds

smacl wrote: »

There is no insurance policy against ageing, you don't insure against a certainty. Yes, there are a lot of old folks more or less abandoned in hospitals and old folks homes, and many of them have families, I've seen plenty of this too. Looking after an infirmed parent in your home is a big ask and would only really work if you got on well with your folks. That said, I don't think it is selfish to think that those you love, and would really do anything for, will reciprocate this, but there's rather more to that than just being a parent. There are also very many reasons why you couldn't have an elderly parent live with you, but rather fewer as to why you wouldn't spend time with them. From what I've seen, loneliness is one of the bigger issues particularly with declining mobility. Could be a case of 'who needs kids when you've boards.ie' but I'm not banking on it.

Sure peoples kids emigrate, move to different parts of the country, die themselves, become estranged from their parents, are busy with their own families.

Absolutely no guarantee theyd be minding you in old age at all.

smacl

intheclouds wrote: »

Sure peoples kids emigrate, move to different parts of the country, die themselves, become estranged from their parents, are busy with their own families.

Absolutely no guarantee theyd be minding you in old age at all.

No guarantees, but I've a number of friends at a similar age to myself who do spend a lot of time with their elderly folks. I spent a fair amount of time visiting in and out of geriatric wards last year, and there were some old folks that never seemed to have a visitor. Personally, if I landed in that situation I'd hope to have a large enough stash of morphine or similar to book a one way ticket out of dodge. YMMV.

intheclouds

smacl wrote: »

No guarantees, but I've a number of friends at a similar age to myself who do spend a lot of time with their elderly folks. I spent a fair amount of time visiting in and out of geriatric wards last year, and there were some old folks that never seemed to have a visitor. Personally, if I landed in that situation I'd hope to have a large enough stash of morphine or similar to book a one way ticket out of dodge. YMMV.

Totally, but you might feel that way anyway even if you had people minding you!!

smacl

+

intheclouds wrote: »

Totally, but you might feel that way anyway even if you had people minding you!!

Could well be, better get that stash organised When my father died he was pretty sick to the extent that keeping ticking over in all probability required a fair conscious effort, and I'd say he more or less decided to call it a day. My mother in-law is a feisty old bird, and while she's on a load of meds, she enjoys life and will doubtless squeeze the last drop out of it, living alone but with visits by my wife 2-4 times most weeks. I guess some kind of sheltered accommodation could be fine with regular visits but most of what I've seen is pretty grim.

Old age aside, the kids are a blast at this point, and have been pretty much from the time that nappies, Barney and Tellytubbies got replaced with Futurama, Doctor Who, rock pooling, and Super Mario.

ThinkProgress

When married fathers (or fathers that aren't married too) look at me, I can feel a very deep sense of envy pouring out of their souls...

The moment they look at me, you can see in their eyes that they are looking at the man they wish they could be... but know they never can be!

I know this sounds very cocky and arrogant... but it's the truth - and I am very perceptive at seeing these signs!

It gets to the point I almost do pity them... even though I know the question of this thread was directed towards their pity for me! lol

Part of me wants to show them the light... but alas I know it's too late for many of them. And I'm also aware that not everyone can/should live such an incredibly fulfilling and satisfying life. This world needs people willing (or deluded enough) to devote the best years of their lives to raising other human beings and all the crazy lunacy that accompanies that particular choice...

Most days I sleep very sound however, despite feeling very sad for many of these people. The main reason for this, is because I am convinced that they truly do not comprehend the alternate life that they turned their backs on... so in a sense, they are not really missing out. (from their perspective) So I take a great deal of solace from that piece of knowledge!

How can I be so sure of this fact? It's very simple, nobody would turn down MY existence if they truly understood what they were rejecting! (No sane person anyway!) :P

I love children btw - just in case anyone is wondering - but that's hardly the point really. It's not about liking or disliking children... It's about what lifestyle you want to have! (That is an important point to clarify, I feel)

Peace brothers!

Carlos Orange

Whenever married men talk about being married there isn't much that sells the idea to me but their lives are about doing what floats their boat not what floats mine.

rickis tache

Married 6 years with 2 kids under 4. Have 2 great friends with no kids (medical reasons) and feel so sad that they can't experience the love that can only be felt by us ( not being smart). Both friends have an active life with plenty of soctal outings that in honesty do make me slightly jealous but I wouldn't swap.......Maybe for a weekend.

Boom_Bap

rickis tache wrote: »

Married 6 years with 2 kids under 4. Have 2 great friends with no kids (medical reasons) and feel so sad that they can't experience the love that can only be felt by us ( not being smart). Both friends have an active life with plenty of soctal outings that in honesty do make me slightly jealous but I wouldn't swap.......Maybe for a weekend.

That's one of the great things I find anyway as being a father. That weekend away that you have organised. It feels like a reward as well as some 'me' time and you get some of the essence of what the OP likes as being a single man.

It feels good for a bit but then coming home is always another reward as well.

I don't look at this as being a negative of being in a relationship and having kids at all.

Wibbs

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

thats an unanswerable question as it entirely depends on the individual

Pretty much this. Some, most? people want kids and many will and do make great parents. Others don't and many of those wouldn't make great parents. I know I wouldn't. I'm just not particularly kid focused at all. I find them a bit tiresome if I'm honest. Fine at a distance and with a limited timeframe. If I had lived in an age where it was the given I doubt any kids I had would be too grateful.

smacl

Wibbs wrote: »

Pretty much this. Some, most? people want kids and many will and do make great parents. Others don't and many of those wouldn't make great parents. I know I wouldn't. I'm just not particularly kid focused at all. I find them a bit tiresome if I'm honest. Fine at a distance and with a limited timeframe. If I had lived in an age where it was the given I doubt any kids I had would be too grateful.

Its not like the world is going to run out of people any time soon, so not having kids unless you really want them could be considered the more socially responsible attitude in many ways. Before I had kids I would have been as happy without, now I've got them they're fantastic but the notion that people should have kids is a throwback from the 'go forth and multiply' days with lots of manual labour and low life expectancy. Those days are gone.

helimachoptor

my wife normally goes to see her family for a week a month (out west) so i do 3 weeks of dad stuff and then get a few days off, best of both worlds.

However as time goes on (27 month old and 9 month old) I like my "free time" less and less tbh, with work etc i'd prefer to see them more and i basically lose 1 weekend a month with them

Deep Thought

I became a Dad at 45...My son is 5 now.

Before I became a Dad, I did as I wanted, went out, stayed in Bed, went away when ever we wanted.

I think there is a difference in being childless and not wanting children.

But I always felt that I wanted to be a dad, and thankfully that happened.

When I look back , I wonder what I did with my time,

Do I envy or pity childless or single men?? Pity no, would i love more me time yes, but I would not change a thing.

My son is amazing and to think how he came to be and wonder about what he is yet to be is what I do now.

My wife and I take time out and We go off for a weekend, sometimes each on our own and sometimes with our son ( we take turns), so we both get a chance at being without our child for a while.

DT

zephyro

Good question OP, pity isn't the right word but whenever I've tried to roughly quantify the amount of time, work (direct + indirect) and money required to raise children versus what you get in return, I'm unable to understand how any rational person in the 1st world could decide that it's a good idea.

Wibbs

Deep Thought wrote: »

I think there is a difference in being childless and not wanting children.

Nailed it there DT. A major difference going on IMH. I would further suspect that there are far more in the former group than the latter. Oddballs like me would be in the minority. For obvious biological "selfish gene" and totally natural reasons if nothing else.

But I always felt that I wanted to be a dad, and thankfully that happened.

Well then congrats Sir. Good to hear and glad to hear you're loving it.

zephyro wrote:

I'm unable to understand how any rational person in the 1st world could decide that it's a good idea.

"Rational" isn't the be all and end all. For a start one man's rational is another's "are you mad?".

Pawwed Rig

zephyro wrote: »

Good question OP, pity isn't the right word but whenever I've tried to roughly quantify the amount of time, work (direct + indirect) and money required to raise children versus what you get in return, I'm unable to understand how any rational person in the 1st world could decide that it's a good idea.

What you get back is worth far more than the costs.

Wibbs

+1. Humans aren't some credit/debit balance sheet, nor shouldn't be regarded as such.

zephyro

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

What you get back is worth far more than the costs.

And what would you say that you get back?

Pawwed Rig

zephyro wrote: »

And what would you say that you get back?

Happiness

fenris

I am a 47 year old widower with two kids so I possibly have a slightly different perspective in that I have done the single - married - single with kids cycle.
Married with the right person beats single hands down any day of the week, you grow together into a unit, kids add to that and give purpose that you didn't realise was missing and you begin to become "settled", what that actually means is that you have found a level of happiness and contentment that doesn't need the pub or outside contact as much and you start to view a lot of single life activity as a bit of a fun distraction rather than the main purpose and are happy to get back to a home that you are happy in.
Ending up single again this time with kids and actually knowing how good a good relationship is, gives me a view of how good it can be.
When I lost my wife, the only thing that kept me going were the kids and some good friends (including some great boardsies).
Kids give you a level of external responsibility and accountability that makes you grow up and engage with the world in a less selfish manner, they annoy the hell out of you sometimes while preventing you from becoming stuck in your ways by making you question the world and actively engage in life.
So from my perspective, a relationship and kids when you are ready are the way to go, it rounds you out as a person and opens up a whole new dimension to life.

orubiru

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Happiness

What is "Happiness" though?

How is it measured?

If I am going to commit the time and effort to raising a child and supporting them the I'd kind of want to be sure that the single guy next door isn't getting the same amount of happiness when his pizza is delivered and he starts his 8 hour Playstation session.

If I am eating my pizza and playing my Playstation I'd want to be sure that I am not missing out on some even higher plane of happiness that can only be achieved through becoming a married father.

Would it be fair to suggest that if someone has invested time and effort into a marriage or raising a child then it is highly unlikely they'd be willing to declare that it was an unsatisfactory waste of time?

It's probably easier for the married guy to look at the single guy and think "he's missing out" because the alternative seems like a pretty clear path to feeling like you wasted your entire life.

It's probably easier for the single guy to look at the married guy and think "he has no freedom" because the alternative means admitting that you've missed out on the best life has to offer.

So folks will often use "happiness" as a measuring stick but I'm not really sure exactly HOW it's measured?

smacl

orubiru wrote: »

It's probably easier for the married guy to look at the single guy and think "he's missing out" because the alternative seems like a pretty clear path to feeling like you wasted your entire life.

It's probably easier for the single guy to look at the married guy and think "he has no freedom" because the alternative means admitting that you've missed out on the best life has to offer.

False dichotomy as you've missed out on a couple of cases there, e.g. what about the married or unmarried couples with no kids for example? Myself and the OH were together for ten years before having kids and did a lot of exploring the world, partying, and living the child free life. Great craic, and I spent the first couple of years of parenthood thinking wtf have I done? Now with the kids getting that bit older, We've most of the freedom back again with a couple of great kids in tow. If you're into kids, go for it, if not, don't. Simples.

So folks will often use "happiness" as a measuring stick but I'm not really sure exactly HOW it's measured?

Not sure why you'd want to compare your happiness relative to other people's. If you're not already happy, unless you've a burning desire to have kids, having them isn't necessarily going to make you any happier and could make you totally miserable as well as broke. I suppose one measure you could use is what makes you happy? For me that includes quite a number of activities with the kids ranging from Super Mario to rock pooling, fishing, dancing in the kitchen, reading the hobbit, hiking, cooking, making home brew, etc, etc... Great to do all the childish fun stuff all over again with the kids and they really do love you for it. Face painting and fireworks this weekend with a bunch of extra young teens staying over, quite looking forward to it.

silverharp

orubiru wrote: »

What is "Happiness" though?

How is it measured?

If I am going to commit the time and effort to raising a child and supporting them the I'd kind of want to be sure that the single guy next door isn't getting the same amount of happiness when his pizza is delivered and he starts his 8 hour Playstation session.

If I am eating my pizza and playing my Playstation I'd want to be sure that I am not missing out on some even higher plane of happiness that can only be achieved through becoming a married father.

Would it be fair to suggest that if someone has invested time and effort into a marriage or raising a child then it is highly unlikely they'd be willing to declare that it was an unsatisfactory waste of time?

It's probably easier for the married guy to look at the single guy and think "he's missing out" because the alternative seems like a pretty clear path to feeling like you wasted your entire life.

It's probably easier for the single guy to look at the married guy and think "he has no freedom" because the alternative means admitting that you've missed out on the best life has to offer.

So folks will often use "happiness" as a measuring stick but I'm not really sure exactly HOW it's measured?

maybe happiness is too general. When I became a dad I suddenly had an awesome responsibility and while maybe our mammalian brain pumps us full of happy hormones in such a situation we are geared to want to be needed or to be involved in something beyond organising nice food deliveries.

orubiru

smacl wrote: »

False dichotomy as you've missed out on a couple of cases there, e.g. what about the married or unmarried couples with no kids for example? Myself and the OH were together for ten years before having kids and did a lot of exploring the world, partying, and living the child free life. Great craic, and I spent the first couple of years of parenthood thinking wtf have I done? Now with the kids getting that bit older, We've most of the freedom back again with a couple of great kids in tow. If you're into kids, go for it, if not, don't. Simples.



Not sure why you'd want to compare your happiness relative to other people's. If you're not already happy, unless you've a burning desire to have kids, having them isn't necessarily going to make you any happier and could make you totally miserable as well as broke. I suppose one measure you could use is what makes you happy? For me that includes quite a number of activities with the kids ranging from Super Mario to rock pooling, fishing, dancing in the kitchen, reading the hobbit, hiking, cooking, making home brew, etc, etc... Great to do all the childish fun stuff all over again with the kids and they really do love you for it. Face painting and fireworks this weekend with a bunch of extra young teens staying over, quite looking forward to it.

I wasn't saying one side or the other is correct here.

I'm just questioning whether happiness is a valid metric of measurement for saying one life choice is better than another.