House inheritance between two sons

bigpaudge

Hi Lads,
I would like some advice or just ideas on what my best options are in regards to a house inheritance.
My father has left his house in Dublin to myself and my brother-in-law, neither of us live in Ireland. I grew up in the house, it was my home for the best part of 25 years. I would not be keen on selling, rather renting but from what I have read in other posts I would probably be better off selling and investing my share. Emotional attachments shouldn't get in the way I know. I don't own property, myself and my wife rent.
I have a feeling my B-i-L would like to sell too. Unfortunately since the death of my sister (his wife) he doesn't want to speak to me so I can't be sure. I don't want to drive an even bigger wedge between myself and my B-i-L with any legal battles over the house.

The house has not had any renovations since the mid 1980's, it needs a lot of work to bring it up to modern standards. Would we be better investing some money to modernise and then sell or just sell without the modernisation?

I look forward to your replies,
thanks a lot.

punisher5112

bigpaudge wrote: »

Hi Lads,
I would like some advice or just ideas on what my best options are in regards to a house inheritance.
My father has left his house in Dublin to myself and my brother-in-law, neither of us live in Ireland. I grew up in the house, it was my home for the best part of 25 years. I would not be keen on selling, rather renting but from what I have read in other posts I would probably be better off selling and investing my share. Emotional attachments shouldn't get in the way I know. I don't own property, myself and my wife rent.
I have a feeling my B-i-L would like to sell too. Unfortunately since the death of my sister (his wife) he doesn't want to speak to me so I can't be sure. I don't want to drive an even bigger wedge between myself and my B-i-L with any legal battles over the house.

The house has not had any renovations since the mid 1980's, it needs a lot of work to bring it up to modern standards. Would we be better investing some money to modernise and then sell or just sell without the modernisation?

I look forward to your replies,
thanks a lot.

Sorry to hear bad news.

Sell unless you plan on coming back.

loyatemu

bigpaudge wrote: »

The house has not had any renovations since the mid 1980's, it needs a lot of work to bring it up to modern standards. Would we be better investing some money to modernise and then sell or just sell without the modernisation?

If you do decide to sell, you should probably just sell it as is; it sounds like it would difficult to agree any renovations with your BiL and they're unlikely to add much value over the cost of doing them. A buyer will prefer a blank slate to do their own work (or possibly demolish and build again).

GingerLily

Sell or buy him out, they are your two options.

BoardsMember

10o% agree. If you're not takking now, crazy to get into wnything together, either as is or as an investment or refurb and sell option. Market is good, sell it.

intheclouds

Sell and definitely dont bother sinking anything but basic white paint job for refurb.

Ms Doubtfire1

seel. Dublin is once again at the height of the real estate bubble, it will come crashing down sooner rather than later. sell now to avail of it.

tfer

Definitely sell as is, you wouldn't get your money back.
Take the money and run, so you and your brother in law can have a clean split

PierreLeCake

You have a number of possible choices depending on what your Brother In Law wants to do.
Both of you could keep the house jointly and rent it out if this was agreeable. I see a number of problems here. You don't talk to your BIL. You both live abroad so upgrading the property and managing it brings a lot of headaches which are hard to deal with when you live abroad.
If you can raise the money you could buy your BIL out. If your father left him half directly in the will your BIL is going to have a much bigger tax bill than you. It might suit him to be bought out. The problem here could be agreeing a fair price that's acceptable to both of you. You could then rent the house with the same problems of being a landlord abroad but it might be easier as you would be the sole landlord.
You sell the house and divvy up the proceeds between the two of you. If your father left a will there will be a solicitor involved and they can determine what your BIL wants to do if its awkward for you to have direct contact.
Even with a will it probably will take around a year before your fathers estate is paid out.
Are you the executor of the will or is it another family member. They might be able to act as middleman between your BIL and you.

December2012

Has your father died? If not, he should consider tax advice because your brother in law may have a bigger tax liability than you, which may be avoided, e.g. if he left some of the brother in laws share to any kids he had with your sister.

The_Conductor

You'll not get back any money you invest in doing up the property- and indeed, prospective buyers will not pay a premium for a property that is in walk-in condition.

As per above- sell, or buy out your Brother-in-law- but don't invest anything in the property- its not worth it.

seamus

Renting out a property is a big pain in the hole and would likely require that you both sink substantial sums of money into it, to bring it up to a legally rentable condition.

Then you've got the constant headache of repairs and maintenance and the tax being deducted as you're non-resident landlords.

It's the home you grew up in, but it's only bricks and mortar. The memories are in your head, not in the house.

Come home, clean it out and you'll be surprised home much an empty property no longer looks like the house you remembered.

Sell it and invest the cash if you don't need it.

Carawaystick

Your BiL will have to pay CAT at 33% on the value of his share over 15k...

bigpaudge

Thanks all for the sound advice! Forgive my ignorance here, I have a couple more questions; why would my BiL have to pay a higher capital acquisitions tax than me and why would he have to pay higher amount of tax if the property was left to us 50/50?

Thanks a lot.

athtrasna

bigpaudge wrote: »

Thanks all for the sound advice! Forgive me ignorance here, I have a couple more questions; why would my BiL have to pay a higher capital acquisitions tax than me and why would he have to pay higher amount of tax if the property was left to us 50/50?

Thanks a lot.

There's a taxation forum on here, those guys will help you on tax questions

bigpaudge

Seems like a lot of hard work to repeat the same post on a tax thread?

judeboy101

Weird that your dad left half your home to your bil and not your sister?

relax carry on

bigpaudge wrote: »

Thanks all for the sound advice! Forgive my ignorance here, I have a couple more questions; why would my BiL have to pay a higher capital acquisitions tax than me and why would he have to pay higher amount of tax if the property was left to us 50/50?

Thanks a lot.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/cat/thresholds.html

The Diddakoi

judeboy101 wrote: »

Weird that your dad left half your home to your bil and not your sister?

States in the op that the sister is deceased.

averagejoe123

bigpaudge wrote: »

Seems like a lot of hard work to repeat the same post on a tax thread?

The threshold for the amount someone can gift/inherit vary depending on the relationship.

The latest budget increased the Group A (patent to child) to €310,000.

Your BIL falls into Group C which has a threshold of €16,250.

Capital Acquisition Tax of 33% will have to be paid on figures above these amounts.

Note that these figures only came into effect of 12 October 2016 and if the property was inherited prior to this date the previous figures of €280,000 group A and €15,000 Group C are applicable.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/budget-2017-inheritance-tax-threshold-jumps-by-11-to-310-000-1.2821007


I would seek independent Tax advice if the sums involved exceed your threshold.

BoardsMember

averagejoe123 wrote: »

The threshold for the amount someone can gift/inherit vary depending on the relationship.

The latest budget increased the Group A (patent to child) to €310,000.

Your BIL falls into Group C which has a threshold of €16,250.

Capital Acquisition Tax of 33% will have to be paid on figures above these amounts.

Note that these figures only came into effect of 12 October 2016 and if the property was inherited prior to this date the previous figures of €280,000 group A and €15,000 Group C are applicable.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/budget-2017-inheritance-tax-threshold-jumps-by-11-to-310-000-1.2821007


I would seek independent Tax advice if the sums involved exceed your threshold.

The threshold applicable is based on the Date of death, not the "current" threshold.

bigpaudge

PierreLeCake wrote: »

You have a number of possible choices depending on what your Brother In Law wants to do.
Both of you could keep the house jointly and rent it out if this was agreeable. I see a number of problems here. You don't talk to your BIL. You both live abroad so upgrading the property and managing it brings a lot of headaches which are hard to deal with when you live abroad.
If you can raise the money you could buy your BIL out. If your father left him half directly in the will your BIL is going to have a much bigger tax bill than you. It might suit him to be bought out. The problem here could be agreeing a fair price that's acceptable to both of you. You could then rent the house with the same problems of being a landlord abroad but it might be easier as you would be the sole landlord.
You sell the house and divvy up the proceeds between the two of you. If your father left a will there will be a solicitor involved and they can determine what your BIL wants to do if its awkward for you to have direct contact.
Even with a will it probably will take around a year before your fathers estate is paid out.
Are you the executor of the will or is it another family member. They might be able to act as middleman between your BIL and you.

My old man made my B-i-L the executor!

bigpaudge

Question: If I move back into the house can my B-i-L evict me or take legal action to sell the house from under my feet when the time comes?

Spanish Eyes

averagejoe123 wrote: »

The threshold for the amount someone can gift/inherit vary depending on the relationship.

The latest budget increased the Group A (patent to child) to €310,000.

Your BIL falls into Group C which has a threshold of €16,250.

Capital Acquisition Tax of 33% will have to be paid on figures above these amounts.

Note that these figures only came into effect of 12 October 2016 and if the property was inherited prior to this date the previous figures of €280,000 group A and €15,000 Group C are applicable.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/budget-2017-inheritance-tax-threshold-jumps-by-11-to-310-000-1.2821007


I would seek independent Tax advice if the sums involved exceed your threshold.

There is a Surviving Spouse relief in CAT which means BIL steps into the shoes of his late wife and is entitled to Group 1 Threshold.

bigpaudge

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

There is a Surviving Spouse relief in CAT which means BIL steps into the shoes of his late wife and is entitled to Group 1 Threshold.

Not sure what that means? My BIL is entitled to €16,250 or something else?

Spanish Eyes

bigpaudge wrote: »

Not sure what that means? My BIL is entitled to €16,250 or something else?

BIL gets the threshold that your late sister would have had from her father, same as you. €335k at present.

December2012

Your brother in law will take his own tax advice, so dont worry about that.

What does he propose doing with the property?

Princess Calla

bigpaudge wrote: »

Question: If I move back into the house can my B-i-L evict me or take legal action to sell the house from under my feet when the time comes?

Is the house still going through probate?

I don't think you are allowed to move back in at this time (we were in a similar situation)

He has as much right to the house as you do, so if he wants to sell, you either need to buy him out, or agree to the sale. Otherwise the house will be vacant and fall into disrepair. Which is no benefit to anyone.

It seems that your relationship is strained as it is.... Why drag the situation out longer. Unless you plan on contesting the will. I would find it weird he made the bil executor of the will, but I have no idea of family dynamics etc. You do. If you think everything is above board, honour your father's wishes without any further drama..... Like a divorce only winners are the legal team.

Regarding tax relief your bil adopts the relationship his spouse would have. In this case a child, so he is eligible to cat a threshold.

Atlantic Dawn

Your BiL as executor has responsibility for securing and protecting all assets in the will to get the best possible price on them, he will have rights to prevent you moving back in to the house. He may sell it to you at market rate or decide to place it on the open market.

ted1

bigpaudge wrote: »

My old man made my B-i-L the executor!

What has being happening to the house over the last three years ?

Pistachio19

How has this not been sorted in the 3+ years since you originally posted? Have you at least agreed to sell the house? If it's lying vacant it will end up damp and the value will certainly decrease. Your BIL has a duty, as executor, to carry out the instructions of your fathers will within a reasonable timeframe and I'd say 3 years is past that time. Is he being difficult about the house? You should probably get your own legal advice at this stage and push for the house to be sold or for one to buy the other out, before it rots, assuming there's nobody living in it.

beauf

Sell and seperate yourself legally and financially from the BIL.

bigpaudge

ted1 wrote: »

What has being happening to the house over the last three years ?

Nothing, its empty. Its a real waste.

I now have some people who are interested in renting the place (as is) with the intent of doing it up. What would be my best course of action to writing up a contract?

Anyone have good advice?
Recommend a solicitor?

beauf

You would be crazy to get into business with your BIL on this.

Humour Me

Why would someone be willing to spend money doing up a place they are paying to rent?

You need to contact the BIL and discuss what to do with the house, whether it’s buy, sell or rent. There is no point making any plans until you have had a discussion.

spaceHopper

bigpaudge wrote: »

Nothing, its empty. Its a real waste.

I now have some people who are interested in renting the place (as is) with the intent of doing it up. What would be my best course of action to writing up a contract?

Anyone have good advice?
Recommend a solicitor?

You can't do that you BIL would have to approve it. What if they claim ownership because they invested in the house. Work with you BIL to sell it or for you to buy him out. If this get acrimonious legal fees will eat up all the money it's not what your father wanted.

beauf

Humour Me wrote: »

Why would someone be willing to spend money doing up a place they are paying to rent?

You need to contact the BIL and discuss what to do with the house, whether it’s buy, sell or rent. There is no point making any plans until you have had a discussion.

You do get people who do that. They do a place do a dysmal job because they don't know how to prepare and paint a place, then expect the LL to pay them for a job (free or cheap rent) that will have to be undone and done properly. Like paint over varnished wood etc.

After 3yrs and nothing done, neither of these owners have the drive to get this done and maintain it. Not remotely either.

Sell it and seperate your finances. You'd be crazy to do anything else.

loyatemu

your best advice remains to sell it as-is (same as the advice you were given in 2016).

Why hasn't this been sorted out in the meantime - if your BiL is the executor it's his responsibility to sort it, but he can't just ignore it indefinitely. For one thing, he's on the hook for inheritance/acquisitions tax and may be clocking up interest (you may be as well depending on the value of the house). Renting it out doesn't remove the tax liability: https://www.crowe.com/ie/insights/inheritance-tax-and-non-resident-beneficiaries

If he's not carrying out his duties as executor you need to get a solicitor involved.

beauf

Renting out is more pushing this issue down the road and making everything worse.

Get it sorted. Ask the BIL to agree to sell. If they continue to drag their feet, get a solicitor involved.

Humour Me

Humour Me wrote: »

Why would someone be willing to spend money doing up a place they are paying to rent?

You need to contact the BIL and discuss what to do with the house, whether it’s buy, sell or rent. There is no point making any plans until you have had a discussion.

People will put up with a lot if they can get the property at a discount.
Apart from the various problems with your brother in law I think it would be a bad idea to rent it as it is. The tenants being happy doesn't absolve you from your responsibilities as a landlord and who knows what they might do to it.

Telly

Have you made up with your brother in law in the meantime? If not you'd be nuts to rent out the house.

Pistachio19

You alone cannot rent it out so don't worry about drawing up a contract. Your BIL, as executor, needs to sort this out. Has Probate been granted? Has the house been transferred into yours and your bil's name?

bigpaudge

Pistachio19 wrote: »

You alone cannot rent it out so don't worry about drawing up a contract. Your BIL, as executor, needs to sort this out. Has Probate been granted? Has the house been transferred into yours and your bil's name?

My old man is still topside, so it's his decision. He wants to rent it out, I will manage the contract and any quirks that appear. BIL doesn't want anything to do with this at the moment, I reckon he will show his face quick smart when my old man gets off the bus.

At the moment I do all of the sorting out of upkeep, negotiation with gardener, insurance, neighbour-service etc... BIL is miles away... doesn't make any input. His excuse being "its not his house, it has nothing to do with him"

bigpaudge

Telly wrote: »

Have you made up with your brother in law in the meantime? If not you'd be nuts to rent out the house.

Not really. There is little or no communication between us.

Princess Calla

bigpaudge wrote: »

My old man is still topside, so it's his decision. He wants to rent it out, I will manage the contract and any quirks that appear. BIL doesn't want anything to do with this at the moment, I reckon he will show his face quick smart when my old man gets off the bus.

At the moment I do all of the sorting out of upkeep, negotiation with gardener, insurance, neighbour-service etc... BIL is miles away... doesn't make any input. His excuse being "its not his house, it has nothing to do with him"

So you've let the thread run for 3 years, only now saying your dad is still alive?

bigpaudge

Princess Calla wrote: »

So you've let the thread run for 3 years, only now saying your dad is still alive?

When did I say he had died?

Pistachio19

You said he had left you a house which would lead one to think he had died. In fact he's alive so he hasn't left you anything. Assuming he's still of sound mind he could change his will numerous times before he dies so I certainly wouldn't be worrying about what to do with a house you don't own for yet another 3 years!

loyatemu

bigpaudge wrote: »

When did I say he had died?

you heavily implied it in your first post, then thanked the second post that said "sorry for your bad news".

In a way I admire your commitment in waiting nearly 4 years to troll us.

beauf

loyatemu wrote: »

you heavily implied it in your first post, then thanked the second post that said "sorry for your bad news".

In a way I admire your commitment in waiting nearly 4 years to troll us.

We can see why there are communication issues.

bigpaudge

Pistachio19 wrote: »

You said he had left you a house which would lead one to think he had died. In fact he's alive so he hasn't left you anything. Assuming he's still of sound mind he could change his will numerous times before he dies so I certainly wouldn't be worrying about what to do with a house you don't own for yet another 3 years!

I do worry about it because I'm the one who has to deal with all the crap. Neighbours complaints (they are the best neighbours anyone could wish for btw), break-ins, garden up-keep, insurance etc... My old man is blind, he's alive but he's in no fit state to do any of this. He's being cared for in his last days. Yes he might change his mind. I am not trolling anyone here I am asking for some advice which I think is valuable for many others in the same boat.

bigpaudge

Pistachio19 wrote: »

You said he had left you a house which would lead one to think he had died. In fact he's alive so he hasn't left you anything. Assuming he's still of sound mind he could change his will numerous times before he dies so I certainly wouldn't be worrying about what to do with a house you don't own for yet another 3 years!

I can't figure out what YOU presume, I am not a mindreader. I know what my old man put in his will because he sent me a copy. I am stating the facts as they are, I never mentioned he had died, thats what you read into it.