Crusaders Athletic Club drops cross

echancrure

According to the indo:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/athletic-club-drops-cross-from-its-crest-over-isil-fears-weeks-before-dublin-marathon-35133787.html

Dilbert75

Flippin' heck.

ParkRunner

Religion/politics & sport never mix well, especially when the religion side is at its most extreme! The Crusaders club probably has about as much to do with religion as ISIS

average_runner

ParkRunner wrote: »

Religion/politics & sport never mix well, especially when the religion side is at its most extreme! The Crusaders club probably has about as much to do with religion as ISIS

There world is gone mad.

Sandwell

They should change their name and be done with it. It's understandably a difficult decision but one that needs to be taken IMO. It's an unfortunate association for a sports club to have. The ISIS hacking stuff is bizarre though.

Chartsengrafs

Seems strange he was dropped. Presume he'll join another club fairly soon.

Tigerandahalf

Crazy story in fairness. I presume it is some isis sympathiser within Ireland who has done this, possibly some teenager in his bedroom!

average_runner

Sandwell wrote: »

They should change their name and be done with it. It's understandably a difficult decision but one that needs to be taken IMO. It's an unfortunate association for a sports club to have. The ISIS hacking stuff is bizarre though.

Don't agree. How long is the club around? Just there is a small portion of idiots out there who think they can bully us.

K.Flyer

Why should they change their name or alter their logo just because some looney is All Of Sudden Offended by it. They should stand up against them, as should everyone else, and tell to fook off with themselves.
Whats next?
Are they going to threaten Switzerland over their flag or go after the Red Cross?

dekbhoy

Chartsengrafs wrote: »

Seems strange he was dropped. Presume he'll join another club fairly soon.

when i read it first i thought jaysus its hardly national news paper story. lol

at the end of the day its a members decision they are ones dawning the famous strip and are the ones most at risk. Put it to a vote id say.

brickmauser

Disgusting craven yellow cowardice.

ISIS can get f*cked.

I hope the members wear the old crusader clubs jerseys with pride.

This is Ireland. This is a democracy. This is a Republic.

We live in freedom here and we are not giving it up.

Not an inch.

Have you people any f*cking guts?

PaulieC

There's no way this happened. Hacking isn't as easy as the increasing (incorrect) usage of the word suggests. My money is on some Dudley do rights in the club wanted it changed for political correctness reasons, but there was no way of selling that to the members, so the hacking story was concocted, threw in Isis to frighten people into accepting it.

As mentioned above, if you're going to take the cross away, change the name of the club as the cross is synonymous with the name. Maybe something like "The club for middle class white people who don't want to offend anyone A.C."

brickmauser

Sandwell wrote: »

They should change their name and be done with it. It's understandably a difficult decision but one that needs to be taken IMO. It's an unfortunate association for a sports club to have. The ISIS hacking stuff is bizarre though.

Why should they change their name????

ISIS can f*ck off

HS3

Isis are a bit like yourself. Not happy till they infiltrate and annoy as many as possible with their madness.

brickmauser wrote: »

Sandwell wrote: »

They should change their name and be done with it. It's understandably a difficult decision but one that needs to be taken IMO. It's an unfortunate association for a sports club to have. The ISIS hacking stuff is bizarre though.

Why should they change their name????

ISIS can f*ck off

dekbhoy

it wouldnt be a big deal to just drop the "saders" and leave it at "Cru A.C." the cross itself wouldnt be an issue as many clubs in Ireland from soccer to GAA have a cross as a symbol on their crest. Some Muslim extremists still want revenge for the Christian Crusades from the 11th century.The club amongst its members is always referred to as Cru so no big deal and a problem solved without it really becoming a problem.

squirrel84

K.Flyer wrote: »

Why should they change their name or alter their logo just because some looney is All Of Sudden Offended by it. They should stand up against them, as should everyone else, and tell to fook off with themselves.
Whats next?
Are they going to threaten Switzerland over their flag or go after the Red Cross?

Madness. Totally agree with above.

kit3

Would be interesting to hear from the actual Crusaders club members on here - think there are a few ???

Gavlor

kit3 wrote: »

Would be interesting to hear from the actual Crusaders club members on here - think there are a few ???

They're all at mass

average_runner

PaulieC wrote: »

There's no way this happened. Hacking isn't as easy as the increasing (incorrect) usage of the word suggests. My money is on some Dudley do rights in the club wanted it changed for political correctness reasons, but there was no way of selling that to the members, so the hacking story was concocted, threw in Isis to frighten people into accepting it.

As mentioned above, if you're going to take the cross away, change the name of the club as the cross is synonymous with the name. Maybe something like "The club for middle class white people who don't want to offend anyone A.C."

Hacking isn't that hard, a lot of club websites are easy to get into. Plenty of college students would be able to.do it. I know I can but not something I bother with. I ain't a student

yaboya1

Seems a bit ridiculous alright.

Regarding Switzerland, wasn't Roger Federer once asked what the best thing was about being Swiss?

His response:

The flag's a big plus........

Subacio

Saracens must be ****ting themselves.

brickmauser

dekbhoy wrote: »

it wouldnt be a big deal to just drop the "saders" and leave it at "Cru A.C." the cross itself wouldnt be an issue as many clubs in Ireland from soccer to GAA have a cross as a symbol on their crest. Some Muslim extremists still want revenge for the Christian Crusades from the 11th century.The club amongst its members is always referred to as Cru so no big deal and a problem solved without it really becoming a problem.

No.

Don't change the name because of a terrorist threat.

This is surrender to terrorism. Pure and simple.

Do we close all the pubs or ban bacon or tell women to cover up at the beach because these bastards tell us to?

Where do you draw the line?

Do you believe in freedom or not?

Bscan86

It's like giving in to a bully, they'll just come back with more childish "I'm the victim so you change your culture because you don't wanna offend me" demands for change.
For a group who behead and cast homosexuals off of roofes they truly are sensitive lil snowflakes.

Singer

Do people actually think that members of ISIS targeted a Dublin athletics club website, and that there's a actual terrorist threat here? Some of the outrage seems misdirected. I reckon there's a good chance it was somebody local causing trouble, if not then they almost certainly fall into this FBI assessment:

https://www.ic3.gov/media/2015/150407-1.aspx

The FBI assesses that the perpetrators are not members of the ISIL terrorist organization. These individuals are hackers using relatively unsophisticated methods to exploit technical vulnerabilities and are utilizing the ISIL name to gain more notoriety than the underlying attack would have otherwise garnered

glacial_pace71

Strange: it's not like they had the Cross of Antioch as a symbol.

Hmm, perhaps the Cross of Lorraine as an alternative? Or would that offend ex-Nazis and Vichy French sympathizers? (Oddly enough the Germans still use the black cross on a white background as their military symbol: it has its origins in the 'Order of Brothers of the German House of Saint Mary in Jerusalem' aka the Teutonic Knights, though I suppose in that example their 'crusades' were historically medieval ethnic wars with Slavic tribes in Europe rather than Christian conversion activities. But the symbol remains, regardless of many people's association of the cross with WW2. Similarly, the eagle remains a symbol of almost every European country on account of the Roman empire).

The problem is one also faced by the Order of Malta and many other bodies that have any Christian symbolism.

I'm sure the club could manage a variation on 'Cru', 'crew' or something phonetically similar if they wanted to keep the name without anyone taking the opportunity to find offence.

Chartsengrafs

glacial_pace71 wrote: »

I'm sure the club could manage a variation on 'Cru', 'crew' or something phonetically similar if they wanted to keep the name without anyone taking the opportunity to find offence.

They really shouldn't have to, it just seems daft. I like the way that Civil Service Harriers are haven't changed the name despite much of the membership working outside the civil service. Likewise Donore Harriers not being based on the South Circular Road in years but maintaining the name. History is important and names are a big part of that.

ThisRegard

brickmauser wrote: »

No.

Don't change the name because of a terrorist threat.

This is surrender to terrorism. Pure and simple.

Do we close all the pubs or ban bacon or tell women to cover up at the beach because these bastards tell us to?

Where do you draw the line?

Do you believe in freedom or not?

I doubt ISIS had anything to do with messing up the website.

RasTa

ThisRegard wrote: »

I doubt ISIS had anything to do with messing up the website.

Of course they did, their number one priority is hacking websites

Standard Sunday clickbait article that people who live on the internet like brickmauser can kill a few hours pretending to be offended.

Paddy1234

Absolutely ridiculous and whoever made the decision is spineless. There is no way there is a terrorist threat to the club.

I'm not a member but if I was I would leave.

Sandwell

The outrage on this thread is hilarious. Crusaders are named after a crowd of fanatics that raped and pillaged their way across the Middle East in the name of Christianity. A similar sort of mentality to ISIS as it happens. Why would you want to have your club named after that? You might as well name an English running club the Black and Tans and expect Irish people not to take offence.

Krusty_Clown

Sandwell wrote: »

The outrage on this thread is hilarious. Crusaders are named after a crowd of fanatics that raped and pillaged their way across the Middle East in the name of Christianity. A similar sort of mentality to ISIS as it happens. Why would you want to have your club named after that? You might as well name an English running club the Black and Tans and expect Irish people not to take offence.

The word crusade has come to mean more than the historic religious land wars and I suspect that the naming of the club has more to do with the modern definition, than the religious expeditions of the 12th century.
Crusade: any vigorous, aggressive movement for the defense or advancement of an idea, cause, etc.:

Calling a football team The black and tans, would be a different situation, as there would be some level of intent to be disrespectful, which clearly wouldn't have been the case when the Crusaders club was founded. Everyone will have a different viewpoint on where the line should be drawn. Should we for example stop giving people names like Hugh, Robert, John, Henry, Peter, Simon and Andrew? Should people who have grown up with those names be renamed? Crusaders have removed the cross and symbolically broken any association with the religious crusades. That should be enough, no?

Coffee Fulled Runner

I find the whole thing a bit sad. If the club its self wished to change their name and crest then that's there choice. But when you have outsiders saying they should do this or that it makes me feel uneay. Imagine if there were calls across Europe to ban the name Mohomad because there was a guy in the middle ages leading a army killing all non Muslims.

echancrure

Never mind about the fanatics, I think there is an argument to be made about renaming clubs (and schools, and hospitals, and ...) in Ireland to render them a bit more inclusive.

As I am not religious I would be a little uncomfortable wearing a cross on a singlet or joining a club named after a 'saint'.

However I am not from these shores and not a club member so I don't think my opinion will carry much weight.

average_runner

echancrure wrote: »

Never mind about the fanatics, I think there is an argument to be made about renaming clubs (and schools, and hospitals, and ...) in Ireland to render them a bit more inclusive.

As I am not religious I would be a little uncomfortable wearing a cross on a singlet or joining a club named after a 'saint'.

However I am not from these shores and not a club member so I don't think my opinion will carry much weight.

And has your country taken that approach?

average_runner

Sandwell wrote: »

The outrage on this thread is hilarious. Crusaders are named after a crowd of fanatics that raped and pillaged their way across the Middle East in the name of Christianity. A similar sort of mentality to ISIS as it happens. Why would you want to have your club named after that? You might as well name an English running club the Black and Tans and expect Irish people not to take offence.

More than one meaning to the word

echancrure

average_runner wrote: »

And has your country taken that approach?

French secularity or laicite is in my blood alright, but I am not criticising Ireland, nor glorifying France.

jameorahiely

They should keep the club emblem and wear it with pride. Draw out the fanatics hacking their website and charge them with membership of a terrorist organisation.

Working class heroes

Quick quick show them your cross.......
Get off the track you non believers.

Oh the importance of an apostrophe(and an e).

brickmauser

ThisRegard wrote: »

I doubt ISIS had anything to do with messing up the website.

Well then all the more reason not to get rid of the cross.

Why this readiness to give in?

Would you take down the tricolour and the harp emblem and throw away the Constitution if a foreign power said we should without a shot fired?

We are not under occupation by ISIS but we find all these people ready to surrender to the first bark they make in Ireland's direction

This is humiliating and degrading and shameful.

It is craven cowardice of the most yellow and contemptible kind.

Have Crusaders no f*cking pride?

ThisRegard

I have nothing to do with Crusaders so can't satiate your rant. Ask them.

axe2grind

may as well change name to panthers

Sandwell

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

The word crusade has come to mean more than the historic religious land wars and I suspect that the naming of the club has more to do with the modern definition, than the religious expeditions of the 12th century.
Crusade: any vigorous, aggressive movement for the defense or advancement of an idea, cause, etc.:

Calling a football team The black and tans, would be a different situation, as there would be some level of intent to be disrespectful, which clearly wouldn't have been the case when the Crusaders club was founded. Everyone will have a different viewpoint on where the line should be drawn. Should we for example stop giving people names like Hugh, Robert, John, Henry, Peter, Simon and Andrew? Should people who have grown up with those names be renamed? Crusaders have removed the cross and symbolically broken any association with the religious crusades. That should be enough, no?

I'm aware of the other meaning and while that may be what those who founded the club intended, the use of the cross on the club crest suggests otherwise. I also recall the issue of Crusaders name being discussed on here before so it's not like this is something that's arisen overnight. They probably should have changed the crest years ago although I can imagine it'd be very difficult to get a consensus on something like this at a club meeting.

glacial_pace71

brickmauser wrote: »

Well then all the more reason not to get rid of the cross.

Why this readiness to give in?

Would you take down the tricolour and the harp emblem and throw away the Constitution if a foreign power said we should without a shot fired?

We are not under occupation by ISIS but we find all these people ready to surrender to the first bark they make in Ireland's direction

This is humiliating and degrading and shameful.

It is craven cowardice of the most yellow and contemptible kind.

Have Crusaders no f*cking pride?

The reference to "they" is a bit odd: there are Irish Muslims, and indeed there's still a small Jewish community in Dublin. They're not some alien species who need to be constantly measured against some colour chart to ascertain if there's the correct shade of off-green to qualify them to participate in any public discourse.

The club has nothing to do with the Crusades and (as mentioned in an earlier post) I'd be sorry to see them remove the cross, but some combinations of name and symbol have the potential to give offence, even if there was not only none intended but if the group allegedly causing the offence are strangers to the origin of the source of discontent by those who are taking offence.

For example "blackface" is hugely insulting in the USA, as it's the ancestors of those being parodied as happy slaves whose experiences are being written off as just some entertainment. (Many Irish-American entertainers made it a central part of their shows). But in Australia, with no slave-owning tradition (indeed with ex-criminal allusions of their own in phrases such as "dragging the chain"), there's no understanding of Blackface being offensive: at Aussie rules games there'll be children blacked-up like theatre actors of old, but in honour of their favourite players, not in denigration of them. Even well-travelled Aussies in London used to sometimes ask about dressing up for a football game: explaining the likelihood of being arrested for racially-motivated provocation drew bewilderment. (In Holland the whole 'Zwarte Piet' manages to offend not only those of African origin but also Muslims, as the character is supposedly a 'Moor').

Similarly, the swastika as a good-luck symbol in India is all very well but don't expect to wear it in Europe without potentially getting arrested.

Personally I don't think they should get rid of the cross but I'd be concerned if it just turned into an occasion for those to hang another anti-Muslim or anti-Semitic story onto the what-about-ery list.

benjamin d

glacial_pace71 wrote: »

The reference to "they" is a bit odd: there are Irish Muslims, and indeed there's still a small Jewish community in Dublin. They're not some alien species who need to be constantly measured against some colour chart to ascertain if there's the correct shade of off-green to qualify them to participate in any public discourse.

ISIS were the subject of the sentence and it's quite obvious they are the 'they'. Spend a little less time being outraged and a little more on basic English and your day will be a lot nicer.

glacial_pace71

benjamin d wrote: »

ISIS were the subject of the sentence and it's quite obvious they are the 'they'. Spend a little less time being outraged and a little more on basic English and your day will be a lot nicer.

You and I both know that ISIS have nothing to do with the website issues. However, there's plenty around who'd happily have a shrill few blasts on the dog whistle to see what sort of creatures react to the pitch.

It's therefore not too unreasonable to have people think a little before anyone launches into tirades about Lundyite traitors taking it down from the mast etc. No outrage here, but very interested to see the whole "but I'm just saying ..." prefaces to some ISIS-this-and-that when it's damn-all to do with ISIS and a very different drumbeat is being played.

Working class heroes

Those on the After hours forum have launched their own crusade and the destination seems to be the Athletics/Running forum. Resist at all costs!!

hillsiderunner

When I read the title I thought they had dropped cross-country from their racing/training schedule .....

(would have been a fierce battle I imagine if that was the plan)

PaulieC

Sandwell wrote: »

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

The word crusade has come to mean more than the historic religious land wars and I suspect that the naming of the club has more to do with the modern definition, than the religious expeditions of the 12th century.
Crusade: any vigorous, aggressive movement for the defense or advancement of an idea, cause, etc.:

Calling a football team The black and tans, would be a different situation, as there would be some level of intent to be disrespectful, which clearly wouldn't have been the case when the Crusaders club was founded. Everyone will have a different viewpoint on where the line should be drawn. Should we for example stop giving people names like Hugh, Robert, John, Henry, Peter, Simon and Andrew? Should people who have grown up with those names be renamed? Crusaders have removed the cross and symbolically broken any association with the religious crusades. That should be enough, no?

I'm aware of the other meaning and while that may be what those who founded the club intended, the use of the cross on the club crest suggests otherwise. I also recall the issue of Crusaders name being discussed on here before so it's not like this is something that's arisen overnight. They probably should have changed the crest years ago although I can imagine it'd be very difficult to get a consensus on something like this at a club meeting.

If you look up the etymology of the word you will see that crusade and cross are not possible to separate. Crusader literally means 'of the cross' or 'stamped with the cross'. And I mean literally literally, not the way the youngsters use it.

KielyUnusual

I am a member of the aforementioned club and I can understand the reasons why they would want to change the name of the club and or/remove the cross from the singlet.

At the end of the day it is a club run by volunteers and the website is set up and run by members of the club. Due to the name of the club it is obviously attracting some unwanted attention and I know that they have had a huge effort in keeping the website up and running due to repeated attacks, eventually having to take down the website completely in order to update security measures. If changing the name of the club, which I don't think has any real significance to members of the club beyond the history associated with it, means that volunteers don't have to put in all this additional work just to keep the website up and running then I don't see this being such a bad thing. It could even be a positive thing. There are a lot of developments going on in Irishtown and perhaps a name that links the club to the area might invoke more of a community feel to club.

With regard to removing the crest from new singlets produced, I can only speculate that this is due to some of the communication received from the afore mentioned hackers or other extremist individuals or organisations. Perhaps it is a bit over zealous but recent incidents worldwide would lead you to not underestimate the callousness of these type of groups so I can understand why a precautionary stance would be taken.

PaulieC

Looks like they've already started producing the logo-free singlets judging from today's cross country.

brickmauser

glacial_pace71 wrote: »

The reference to "they" is a bit odd: there are Irish Muslims, and indeed there's still a small Jewish community in Dublin. They're not some alien species who need to be constantly measured against some colour chart to ascertain if there's the correct shade of off-green to qualify them to participate in any public discourse.

The club has nothing to do with the Crusades and (as mentioned in an earlier post) I'd be sorry to see them remove the cross, but some combinations of name and symbol have the potential to give offence, even if there was not only none intended but if the group allegedly causing the offence are strangers to the origin of the source of discontent by those who are taking offence.

For example "blackface" is hugely insulting in the USA, as it's the ancestors of those being parodied as happy slaves whose experiences are being written off as just some entertainment. (Many Irish-American entertainers made it a central part of their shows). But in Australia, with no slave-owning tradition (indeed with ex-criminal allusions of their own in phrases such as "dragging the chain"), there's no understanding of Blackface being offensive: at Aussie rules games there'll be children blacked-up like theatre actors of old, but in honour of their favourite players, not in denigration of them. Even well-travelled Aussies in London used to sometimes ask about dressing up for a football game: explaining the likelihood of being arrested for racially-motivated provocation drew bewilderment. (In Holland the whole 'Zwarte Piet' manages to offend not only those of African origin but also Muslims, as the character is supposedly a 'Moor').

Similarly, the swastika as a good-luck symbol in India is all very well but don't expect to wear it in Europe without potentially getting arrested.

Personally I don't think they should get rid of the cross but I'd be concerned if it just turned into an occasion for those to hang another anti-Muslim or anti-Semitic story onto the what-about-ery list.

ISIS or somebody with the same murderous ideology are commanding that Irish people do what they say and a group of Irish people are caving in without a shot fired.

That is intolerable and deeply troubling and extremely alatming.

What would happen if there was an actual shot or shots fired or explosives set off in this country.

Would we all be asked to collectively convert to Islam to spare the hurt feelings of primitive barbarian savages?