Should there be a penalty for not voting?

Depp

Saw the other recent threads about who should/shouldn't be allowed vote and it got me thinking, who would be in favor of the introduction of a similar system to what they have in Australia, whereby if you don't present yourself at the polls and mark a polling slip you have to pay a fine that increases for re-occurring offenders.

Think personally the system is a great idea and would be a good measure to take as lately it seems the voter turnout we get is disgracefully low.

JimmysCar

No. Maybe if politicans decided against holding referendums on stupid days such as a Thursday (where they want a grey vote) and instead hold them on a weekend they would get a higher turnout lad. Sometimes a lower turnout suits them lad so shouldnt be a penalty.

No, it amounts to a suppression of the opinion "don't like any of them, don't even think enough of the system to bother turning up and spoiling the vote".

Which I think is a legitimate opinion. Even if I myself would always vote.

uck51js9zml2yt

JimmysCar wrote: »

No. Maybe if politicans decided against holding referendums on stupid days such as a Thursday (where they want a grey vote) and instead hold them on a weekend they would get a higher turnout lad. Sometimes a lower turnout suits them lad so shouldnt be a penalty.

We had votes on a Saturday in the past in response to students and workers saying it suited them better....it made no difference to turnout.

md23040

In this tech savvy era it's ridiculous you can not just vote through your smart phone or computer.

All these tally centres full of the usual goombeens is off-putting and should be a thing of the past.

Tzardine

md23040 wrote: »

In this tech savvy era it's ridiculous you can not just vote through your smart phone or computer.

All these tally centres full of the usual goombeens is off-putting and should be a thing of the past.

Great idea. Electronic voting.

We could call it e voting for short.

What could possibly go wrong ?

myshirt

md23040 wrote: »

In this tech savvy era it's ridiculous you can not just vote through your smart phone or computer.

All these tally centres full of the usual goombeens is off-putting and should be a thing of the past.

How would you provide assurance in a scenario like that?

Del2005

Depp wrote: »

Saw the other recent threads about who should/shouldn't be allowed vote and it got me thinking, who would be in favor of the introduction of a similar system to what they have in Australia, whereby if you don't present yourself at the polls and mark a polling slip you have to pay a fine that increases for re-occurring offenders.

Think personally the system is a great idea and would be a good measure to take as lately it seems the voter turnout we get is disgracefully low.

Then there should be a none of the above option and if it wins then the election is reran with all the original candidates barred. No point in being forced to vote repeatedly for people you don't want in power.

Mena

There's already a penalty for not voting, you get the gombeens you voted for.

Plus, in a democracy I can't see how making a choice, to vote or not, could be stripped away.

machiavellianme

myshirt wrote: »

How would you provide assurance in a scenario like that?

Everyone has a pps number. Most have a passport. Enter both numbers to proceed.
That stops people guessing random pps numbers.
You could even post out another randomly generated number instead of a voting card to make it more secure.

At least it stops people turning up with the neighbours voting card because it came through the letterbox. Also cuts out the multiple votes for people based in Dublin/Cork/other and still have the vote at "home" in mammys because they never got removed from the register (no matter how many times they told them).

The J Stands for Jay

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No, it amounts to a suppression of the opinion "don't like any of them, don't even think enough of the system to bother turning up and spoiling the vote".

Which I think is a legitimate opinion. Even if I myself would always vote.

What about the Brewster's Millions option: "None of the Above"?

JimmysCar

A few extra tax credits would get people out voting.

Also, this is what I'd like to see happen for referendums: Bring back in those electronic voting machines. Before you get to cast your vote, you need to answer a few general questions based on what you are voting for, to show you have some idea of what it is you are voting on. The questions are based on those independent information pamphlets which are put together by the referendum commission. If you dont answer the questions correctly you are told to "f*ck off please".

md23040

Tzardine wrote: »

Great idea. Electronic voting.

We could call it e voting for short.

What could possibly go wrong ?

myshirt wrote: »

How would you provide assurance in a scenario like that?

In a world in which I securely do all my banking online with intra bank transfers, conduct foreign exchange daily, buy and sell shares, amongst countless other things with assured security, and a system can not be adopted in which a user can't decide between six gobshties in some poxy constituency, nor vote on a referendum issue because a government made a balls over 10+ years ago in some e-voting system seems bizarre.

First of all, not saying the Irish government should be at the forefront of designing an IT system from scratch, use someone else's tech, and I'm no expert in IT, but technology has moved quite a bit since the E-voting travesty both in terms of hardware and software.

The point being made is, if it were available to vote through your phone, tablet etc then the turn-out would be substantially greater and more representative of the public opinion rather than same grey vote that the establishment parties prefer, that tend to be stoic and tow with the party line.

To me it's not acceptable to restrict ourselves to not progressing because of past failures - that's not the way life nor industry tends to work.

GreenFolder2

They need to make the electoral register more secure. It should be one database linked to PPS. That way duplication is impossible. The current system is crazy.

exaisle

I'd be inclined to remove non-voters from the register for not voting, but allowing them to re-register if they wish....

OldMrBrennan83

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How Soon Is Now

Do it online or set an app up for it etc.

This bollox of having to get back to a local school etc on day your in work is reason I haven't voted in a while!

Depp

dont agree with an online option. think without the person to person chain of custody its way too open to voter fraud. Its a lot easier to get away with changing numbers on a screen than to fudge the numbers of physical ballot papers

jobeenfitz

Does anyone care anymore?

FrStone

Lainey Fast Infantry wrote: »

We had votes on a Saturday in the past in response to students and workers saying it suited them better....it made no difference to turnout.

Turnout on a Saturday was actually down than turnout on a Thursday.

Keep it to a Thursday, if students actually wanted to vote they would apply for a postal vote. Some of the sickest, infirm and immobile in our society will come out to vote come hell or high water. The very least a student can do is organise a postal vote.

OldMrBrennan83

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FrStone

Patww79 wrote: »

They can organise it IF they want to vote.

Of course, if someone doesn't want to vote that's fine. It just means my vote has more power.

I just can't stand listening to the USI moaning time and time again, despite the fact their members have some of the lowest turnout of any demographic.

Annasopra

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

Do it online or set an app up for it etc.

This bollox of having to get back to a local school etc on day your in work is reason I haven't voted in a while!

Do you work shifts between 7am and 10pm?

Depp

FrStone wrote: »

Of course, if someone doesn't want to vote that's fine. It just means my vote has more power.

I just can't stand listening to the USI moaning time and time again, despite the fact their members have some of the lowest turnout of any demographic.

I agree with this 100%, far too many people (not just students) will carp and moan about the govt. on end but then when you ask who they voted for only to be told they didn't bother their hole. Frankly, I believe that if you give up your right to vote then you also give up your right to whinge about the result

Nervous Wreck

Voting is a right and a privilege but it's not an obligation in this country, nor should it be. Freedom to abstain is as important as freedom to vote.

Depp wrote: »

Frankly, I believe that if you give up your right to vote then you also give up your right to whinge about the result

I get the sentiment but it's completely baseless. If there's 5 people in my constituency and they're all cunts whose policies I disagree with, I'm not voting for them. That doesn't negate my right to complain about the state of my constituency, or my country. In fact, nothing does.

endacl

Nervous Wreck wrote: »

Voting is a right and a privilege but it's not an obligation in this country, nor should it be. Freedom to abstain is as important as freedom to vote.



I get the sentiment but it's completely baseless. If there's 5 people in my constituency and they're all cunts whose policies I disagree with, I'm not voting for them. That doesn't negate my right to complain about the state of my constituency, or my country. In fact, nothing does.

Good point. Unless it should also be a responsibility too?

Here's an Athenian thought.... Citizens of a state have three responsibilities/duties to the state of which they are a part.
1. Obey the laws of the state.
2. Pay taxes to maintain the state.
3. Participate in deciding who runs things.

Nobody ever argues with the first two points. They make sense. Why is the third so tricky? Also, if we had a compulsory system, a la Australia, whereby there was a small fine payable by those who didn't turn out, Irish elections would pay for themselves many times over.

I'm not saying people should have to vote. They should have to turn out to vote though. Pop it in the box unmarked. Spoil it. Whatever. But apathy should come at a cost. Apathy only benefits a status quo.

Nervous Wreck

I don't see the sense in forcing people to show up and cast a spoiled vote that will mean nothing. Who does that benefit?

twinytwo

md23040 wrote: »

In a world in which I securely do all my banking online with intra bank transfers, conduct foreign exchange daily, buy and sell shares, amongst countless other things with assured security, and a system can not be adopted in which a user can't decide between six gobshties in some poxy constituency, nor vote on a referendum issue because a government made a balls over 10+ years ago in some e-voting system seems bizarre.

First of all, not saying the Irish government should be at the forefront of designing an IT system from scratch, use someone else's tech, and I'm no expert in IT, but technology has moved quite a bit since the E-voting travesty both in terms of hardware and software.

The point being made is, if it were available to vote through your phone, tablet etc then the turn-out would be substantially greater and more representative of the public opinion rather than same grey vote that the establishment parties prefer, that tend to be stoic and tow with the party line.

To me it's not acceptable to restrict ourselves to not progressing because of past failures - that's not the way life nor industry tends to work.

Execpt you forget, things arent as secure as they would have you believe.

Most security breaches you will never hear about.

endacl

Nervous Wreck wrote: »

I don't see the sense in forcing people to show up and cast a spoiled vote that will mean nothing. Who does that benefit?

It's still participation. It benefits everybody. And '50% of votes spoiled' sends a very different message to '50% turnout'.

twinytwo

Nervous Wreck wrote: »

Voting is a right and a privilege but it's not an obligation in this country, nor should it be. Freedom to abstain is as important as freedom to vote.



I get the sentiment but it's completely baseless. If there's 5 people in my constituency and they're all cunts whose policies I disagree with, I'm not voting for them. That doesn't negate my right to complain about the state of my constituency, or my country. In fact, nothing does.

But, many people died to give us the right to vote.

Also if you end up in a situation like the above, you as a citizen of Ireland surly have two options.

1. Do something about it? ( But the irish mentality of "im alright jack" always seems to pervail in this circumstance)

or failing the above

2. At least vote for the one guy out of the five that might actually make an effort to do something right? - by not voting at all it does a lot more harm than good.

When the vote on gay marrige was held, tens of thousands flocked back to Ireland to vote and none were shy telling anyone who would listen how great they were, making the effort to vote.

The same will happen if/when the vote on repealment of the 8th is held.

But god, ask someone to vote in the fecking goverment of the day that affects everything from wages to health to education and lots of people cant be arsed.....apparently its not important enough! rollseyes:

OldMrBrennan83

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twinytwo

endacl wrote: »

It's still participation. It benefits everybody. And '50% of votes spoiled' sends a very different message to '50% turnout'.

Well no it dosent... because at the end of the day the likes of Enda and co dont give a flying **** about ordinary joe soap. He will kiss your arse to get elected but after that you can **** off, shut up and pay your taxes.

The only way to make politicians is to either vote for the fringe parties or riot and riot hard.

Neither of coarse will happen in Ireland.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

JimmysCar wrote: »

No. Maybe if politicans decided against holding referendums on stupid days such as a Thursday (where they want a grey vote) and instead hold them on a weekend they would get a higher turnout lad. Sometimes a lower turnout suits them lad so shouldnt be a penalty.

While I agree that there should not be a fine for failure to vote, your reasoning is just a cop out. Polling stations are open for ridiculously long hours. When working I could always get to vote, be it by leaving home earlier or returning that night via a polling station. Polls at weekends in the past resulted in no higher turnouts.

I do wonder though, if people should have to re-register to vote if they fail to use their vote on a number of consecutive occasions.

endacl

twinytwo wrote: »

Well no it dosent... because at the end of the day the likes of Enda and co dont give a flying **** about ordinary joe soap. He will kiss your arse to get elected but after that you can **** off, shut up and pay your taxes.

The only way to make politicians is to either vote for the fringe parties or riot and riot hard.

Neither of coarse will happen in Ireland.

I'm rioting hard here as we speak.

Enda.

Nervous Wreck

endacl wrote: »

It's still participation. It benefits everybody. And '50% of votes spoiled' sends a very different message to '50% turnout'.

In what literal, tangible way does a spoiled vote help anyone? I do see your point but spoiled votes don't change the outcome of an election. Also, if voting was compulsory, spoiling votes would be the exact same as abstaining. In the current setup, spoiling a vote would make a bigger statement than it would were it compulsory to show up.

twinytwo wrote: »

But, many people died to give us the right to vote.

The right; not the legal obligation.

Also if you end up in a situation like the above, you as a citizen of Ireland surly have two options.

1. Do something about it? ( But the irish mentality of "im alright jack" always seems to pervail in this circumstance)[/QUOTE]

Do something about it like what?

twinytwo wrote: »

or failing the above

2. At least vote for the one guy out of the five that might actually make an effort to do something right? - by not voting at all it does a lot more harm than good.

Vote for some scumbag who MIGHT try do something right, despite a history of not doing so, just so I can say I voted?

I also have that third option you left out; I can abstain.

Depp

Nervous Wreck wrote: »

In what literal, tangible way does a spoiled vote help anyone? I do see your point but spoiled votes don't change the outcome of an election.

What ''literal, tangible'' way does abstaining help anyone? other than not having to bother getting off your hole...

twowheelsonly

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Do you work shifts between 7am and 10pm?

I know plenty of people working 8-8 or 7.30-8 shifts in Dublin (with no 100% guarantee of finishing at 8 ) and living in the likes of Portlaoise, Mullingar, Cavan or a host of other places that are an hour or more from Dublin. I work the same shifts in Cork now but we have people from Tipp, Limerick and Waterford in the same boat. It doesn't give an awful lot of time for getting to the polling station alongside the fact that after a long day of work and travel a lot of people just couldn't be bothered.
When I worked in Dublin my vote was still in Cork and if I was due on there wasn't a hope in hell of getting off to vote.

Butters1979

Lainey Fast Infantry wrote: »

We had votes on a Saturday in the past in response to students and workers saying it suited them better....it made no difference to turnout.

Exactly. Peope who complain about what feckin day of the week the vote is on usually have no intention of voting and every intention of moaning about the day of the week it's held. Then they usually moan about the result afterwards.

As for the OP. I think voting should be mandatory. anyone who lives in a democracy but doesn't bother to vote is a disgrace. Excuses like the day the vote is held or you don't like any of the candidates is moronic.

lazybones32

Should there be a penalty for not voting?
The Govt. is the penalty we get for voting, so why introduce a penalty for not voting.

It's my vote and I can use it or not.

Nervous Wreck

Depp wrote: »

What ''literal, tangible'' way does abstaining help anyone? other than not having to bother getting off your hole...

I made no assertion that it does.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

twowheelsonly wrote: »

I know plenty of people working 8-8 or 7.30-8 shifts in Dublin (with no 100% guarantee of finishing at 8 ) and living in the likes of Portlaoise, Mullingar, Cavan or a host of other places that are an hour or more from Dublin. I work the same shifts in Cork now but we have people from Tipp, Limerick and Waterford in the same boat. It doesn't give an awful lot of time for getting to the polling station alongside the fact that after a long day of work and travel a lot of people just couldn't be bothered.
When I worked in Dublin my vote was still in Cork and if I was due on there wasn't a hope in hell of getting off to vote.

You could have shortened that post considerably.

50% of the voting population don't work 12 hour shifts with travel time that takes them beyond polling station hours. Some do, but not enough the skew the figures

uck51js9zml2yt

$20 penalty in Australia for not voting without a valid reason.

OldMrBrennan83

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Depp

Patww79 wrote: »

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in oz it goes up each time you miss a poll without a valid reason

Butters1979

exaisle wrote: »

I'd be inclined to remove non-voters from the register for not voting, but allowing them to re-register if they wish....

How does that effect them? All that is is more admin work. You're removed from the register by can reregister anytime you wish?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Patww79 wrote: »

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It's actually free to not register.

OldMrBrennan83

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Depp

Patww79 wrote: »

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fairly sure you still get the fine

GreenFolder2

A lot of people who don't vote have no interest in politics or are just not bothered at all.

If you force people to vote, you'll get people turning up just going : 1,2,3,4,5 like they're filling in a lotto form.

It's not a good idea.

Pim Pictus

I don't vote. I take a keen interest in politics but there is no one in the last 14 years who has shown me anything I could agree with enough to vote.

I don't vote in referendums because it's pointless. We just keep doing them until we get whatever the perceived correct answer is. I have no interest in taking part in that farce.

Austrailians don't have to vote if they're not registered which is probably fair enough. I'm not registered either and won't be unless something drastically changes.

Father Hernandez

I vote and have done since I turned 18 but going to vote is a lot of hassle.

Imagine you sign in online with your PPS number and a confidential password between the hours of 9am to 9pm on a given day and vote.

Not sure why in this day and age we're still reliant on pen and paper, surely it'd be easier to have everything digital if done properly and not the mess we had a number of years ago.