TUI stance on ASTI strike?

deiseindublin

What do people see happening next? Really hope they back the ASTI on this brave move, although I don't hold out much hope when you look at the last few years.



Just tweeked the thread title as things have progressed since, there'll probably be ongoing updates over the coming weeks too.
MOD

r93kaey5p2izun

I would love to see support but based on past behaviour I don't think it will happen. Given that they put members in mixed union schools in the position of filling out the form to declare membership, thus facilitating the government in identifying who to apply FEMPI to and couldn't see any problem with that. My area rep was totally dismissive of this issue when we expressed concerns - "well, that's their decision not to join LRA, we've joined so they'll have to worry about that". If their guidelines involves members crossing an ASTI picket then I will leave TUI even though I won't personally be affected. I really hope it won't come to that though.

deiseindublin

Surely as a member of the same congress of trade unions the TUI can't ask members to pass a picket? I'd say it'll be really messy in dual union schools. Think I heard Ed Byrne say the other day on PK that it was North of 100 schools, although I previously read 90ish in the papers.

Either which way, it's a lot of schools.

doc_17

If a school closes because of an ASTI strike will TUI members get paid?

Queenalocin

I think they need to come out in support of ASTI - as a TUI member, I certainly wouldn't pass an ASTI picket. I'm already disappointed in TUI and how things have worked out for third level lecturers.

deiseindublin

doc_17 wrote: »

I'd a school closes because of an ASTI strike will TUI members get paid?

I'd imagine they will if they are available to work.

man_no_plan

If you don't go into work as there's a strike are you not breaking your service etc without the protection of IR legislation? I'm not sure how it works because TUI teachers crossed the picket the last time as far as I can remember.

There is an issue around closing the schools which would result in a lockout of TUI members also I'd say.

I don't think its as straightforward as we'd like.

I don't know how TUI would support the ASTI in practice other than to recognise and support their right to take industrial action. What else can they do?

deiseindublin

Afair in one case non-union and other union staff were asked to sign a doc to say there were available and willing to work if the need arose, but the school was closed on the day.

evolving_doors

deiseindublin wrote: »

Afair in one case non-union and other union staff were asked to sign a doc to say there were available and willing to work if the need arose, but the school was closed on the day.

What's a half compliment of staff going to do with a full compliment of students.. keep em all sitting on the floor of the gym for the day?

deiseindublin

That's my point, the schools chose not to open, probably for H&S reasons in case all students arrived but non-union and other union staff were paid because they signed that there were available to work.

judeboy101

deiseindublin wrote: »

That's my point, the schools chose not to open, probably for H&S reasons in case all students arrived but non-union and other union staff were paid because they signed that there were available to work.

Signing a letter to say you will cross a picket is them same as walking across it, worse in fact, as at least walking across a picket shows some level of balls.

implausible

judeboy101 wrote:

Signing a letter to say you will cross a picket is them same as walking across it, worse in fact, as at least walking across a picket shows some level of balls.

Happened during the last strike - non-union members signed to say that they were available for work. The only solution for teachers who did not have any involvement in the issue and who didn't want to lose pay, but who didn't want to fall out with colleagues by crossing a picket.

man_no_plan

implausible wrote: »

Happened during the last strike - non-union members signed to say that they were available for work. The only solution for teachers who did not have any involvement in the issue and who didn't want to lose pay, but who didn't want to fall out with colleagues by crossing a picket.

This is the problem. When this is sorted, and it will be sorted one way or another, life will go on but it will take time to heal divisions.

Potentially in dual schools they will still be able to open depending on the number of TUI people to supervise and so on. Perhaps only the strike days will close these schools.?

In asti only schools even the withdrawal from s/s will close the schools of there are teachers absent on certs etc. And nobody to look after them.

Millem

I am in dual union school. I was told by my colleagues who were there during strikes (before my time.....was it about bench marking???) Tui got paid and did not go to school, asti were on strike. Our school couldn't open under H & S.

Tui make up about 60 or 70% of our teachers....our school is big so I don't think it would stay open this time under H & S. I really really hope we are not expected to pass the picket.

mirrorwall14

Dual union is the one I'm wondering about. Do individual teachers have to inform management they are striking? Otherwise how do management know how many are striking? We're an unusual one in that we don't have anyone in ASTI (as far as we know). If that's the case they need some way of officially figuring out who is who before the strike or there may not even be a picket. Or can the ASTI picket the school anyway even if there is currently only TUI members?

deiseindublin

I don't think they can mirrorwall. Think I remember reading something about it on an ICTU page before.

judeboy101

deiseindublin wrote: »

I don't think they can mirrorwall. Think I remember reading something about it on an ICTU page before.

Mirrorwall?

deiseindublin

Sorry, mirrorwall14, asked Q on prev. page.

evolving_doors

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Dual union is the one I'm wondering about. Do individual teachers have to inform management they are striking? Otherwise how do management know how many are striking? We're an unusual one in that we don't have anyone in ASTI (as far as we know). If that's the case they need some way of officially figuring out who is who before the strike or there may not even be a picket. Or can the ASTI picket the school anyway even if there is currently only TUI members?

I would imagine if it's a TUI-only school then it's business as usual. ASTI would just picket their own schools. If there's a mix then folk who are non union/TUI, they will be asked to write a letter to say they are available to work that day. It's usually easy to figure out, especially when the principal/deputy is on a union mailing list.
If names aren't available then I would presume there's a general call out to all staff to notify the school of their availability to work on the strike days.
Those that are going on strike wont notify the school.

I heard that pay isn't deducted, it's added up and taken off pension, is that correct?

r93kaey5p2izun

implausible wrote: »

Happened during the last strike - non-union members signed to say that they were available for work. The only solution for teachers who did not have any involvement in the issue and who didn't want to lose pay, but who didn't want to fall out with colleagues by crossing a picket.

It was treated the same as crossing a picket in my place. And they actually had to cross the picket the second day as the document had to be signed in school. Most went sick but two actually crossed the picket.

r93kaey5p2izun

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I heard that pay isn't deducted, it's added up and taken off pension, is that correct?

You lose 1/7th of a week's pay for each strike day. But you also pay less tax. You lose your pension contributions for that day too.

deiseindublin

Alejandro Curved Guano wrote: »

Most went sick but two actually crossed the picket.

Is there still resentment about it Alejandro Curved Guano or is it long since forgotten? Exactly how long ago was that?

r93kaey5p2izun

deiseindublin wrote: »

Is there still resentment about it Arlessienne or is it long since forgotten? Exactly how long ago was that?

That was only in Jan 2015. No it's definitely not forgotten. To be honest there's not much more respect for those who went sick - they got paid for the day too. Those who crossed the picket are quite contrary and involved in a lot of disputes anyway. Personally, I'd have less issue with them than the ones pulling sickies - they were open about their lack of support.

One person actually chose to lose the day's pay in support. They don't agree with unions in general as they don't agree with being bound by collective agreements but they are willing to stick to their own principles when the need arises and agreed with objections to JC at the time.

deiseindublin

I can imagine it's those pulling sickies would stick in my craw too!

man_no_plan

The picket crossing will only be an issue on the strike days. If the school is closed duecti lack of supervision I think that there will be an expectation that teachers attend work?

There will be no picket on these days as they aren't official strike days, there has to be a clear distinction between being on strike - where you withdraw your labour for 24hours and being in dispute over s/s - where you are available for all your normal duties apart from s/s.

Is there any word from either union on this?

Alejandro Curved Guano

Alejandro Curved Guano wrote: »

You lose 1/7th of a week's pay for each strike day. But you also pay less tax. You lose your pension contributions for that day too.

The only things that seem important to teachers. Pay and pensions and to Hell with doing the job they are employed to do.

actually, teachers were employed to do S&S, but not paid.
But I suppose you must be from a time when Nuns and Christian Brothers taught for free and teaching was a vocation.

Got forbid anyone would want to get paid these days... Nevermind a pension!

Anyhow, you're obviously here to troll so good luck.

ccazza

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The only things that seem important to teachers. Pay and pensions and to Hell with doing the job they are employed to do.

You couldn't actually be more wrong there. The majority of teachers who voted in this ballot or not LPT. They have nothing to gain but just pay to lose in support of our colleagues. Also one of the reasons we have not accepted the new Junior Certificate is to do with our students. I can't agree to Common Level papers. I believe the more capable students need to be challenged more and the less able also have to be comfortable with their courses. Students will be prepared for their exams as always. The more ironic thing about all this is that teachers will make up to students days they lost by more than likely taking students for extra classes in their own time.

implausible

Alejandro Curved Guano wrote: »

It was treated the same as crossing a picket in my place. And they actually had to cross the picket the second day as the document had to be signed in school. Most went sick but two actually crossed the picket.

Most of our non-union staff went in to sign before the picket started to avoid crossing it.

mtoutlemonde

implausible wrote: »

Most of our non-union staff went in to sign before the picket started to avoid crossing it.

And they are probably new to teaching and who ASTI are fighting for.

implausible

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

And they are probably new to teaching and who ASTI are fighting for.

No, the opposite in fact, older members who left the union to save money or who had never any time for unions. They didn't want to cross a picket manned by their colleagues, so took the common-sense option open to them. I'm in a TUI school and nearly all the younger teachers are members.

Moody_mona

We had non union members cross the picket in January 2015. They drove past us at the entrance, waving, stayed for most of the day but left a little early. Hard to forget it to be honest.

mtoutlemonde

implausible wrote: »

No, the opposite in fact, older members who left the union to save money or who had never any time for unions. They didn't want to cross a picket manned by their colleagues, so took the common-sense option open to them. I'm in a TUI school and nearly all the younger teachers are members.

Re the younger teachers - I can't really blame them - CID after two years - with the way teaching has gone.

implausible

mtoutlemonde wrote:

Re the younger teachers - I can't really blame them - CID after two years - with the way teaching has gone.

They were members before that came in, I'm referring to the JC strikes last year.

jameorahiely

ccazza wrote: »

You couldn't actually be more wrong there. The majority of teachers who voted in this ballot or not LPT. They have nothing to gain but just pay to lose in support of our colleagues. Also one of the reasons we have not accepted the new Junior Certificate is to do with our students. I can't agree to Common Level papers. I believe the more capable students need to be challenged more and the less able also have to be comfortable with their courses. Students will be prepared for their exams as always. The more ironic thing about all this is that teachers will make up to students days they lost by more than likely taking students for extra classes in their own time.

But they don't support their colleagues as they signed the agreement their striking colleagues wouldn't. So why a big display about crossing the picket?

r93kaey5p2izun

jameorahiely wrote: »

But they don't support their colleagues as they signed the agreement their striking colleagues wouldn't. So why a big display about crossing the picket?

Those concerned about crossing the picket are no doubt part of the thousands who voted to reject the agreement and who would be ASTI members if they had that option. Of course this is plain as day to anybody except those here for nothing but a row.

evolving_doors

Alejandro Curved Guano wrote: »

Those concerned about crossing the picket are no doubt part of the thousands who voted to reject the agreement and who would be ASTI members if they had that option. Of course this is plain as day to anybody except those here for nothing but a row.

I think it's hard to generalise though.

Like you've supporters and naysayers both within and outside the ASTI/TUI. And non-union... or yet to join.. or were union and left...

There's a teacher in our school who despises unions (even the very concept of one!).. but always takes the pay cut rather than making themselves available to work... just because they view taking the pay (even though they are at home) as crossing the picket.
Whereas other younger staff (on part time hours) not in a union are delighted to have the day off.. and openly mock the teachers having to stand out in the cold.
Each to their own I suppose... but the mind boggles sometimes.

doc_17

It will not come to passing a picket. In dual union schools there will be grounds to close the schools on H&S grounds due to the withdrawal of S&S

evolving_doors

doc_17 wrote: »

It will not come to passing a picket. In dual union schools there will be grounds to close the schools on H&S grounds due to the withdrawal of S&S

The s&S issue doesn't start till November though. The other issue starts next week.

doc_17

Gebgbegb wrote: »

The s&S issue doesn't start till November though. The other issue starts next week.

School management will be very conscious of not making TUI members pass the picket of their fellow teachers as it will be a disaster for that school. Local arrangements will be put in place. Whether we like it or not, TUI are not in dispute. And if they can sign a letter to say that they are available for work and then they are told to stay at home then that's what should be done.

The way this government behave they could treat not working as a break in service if it wasn't a properly sanctioned stirke!!

Westeros

Just wondering what are the general thoughts on a Further Education College staying open during these strikes?
A meeting was held today and all staff members are torn, TUI have been hard to get information out of.
The college is under the one umbrella as the secondary school, same principal, roll number etc. Both the school and college are dual-union with members of ASTI and TUI in both.
The news from the top re the college seems to be "go ahead as normal as only one member of the college is ASTI" while TUI members are worried about disregarding the views of their colleagues.

deiseindublin

If it's one roll number, then it's one school and irrelevant what the breakdown in the FE college is. Even one ASTI member on a staff would have all of the TUI members crossing the picket.

Westeros

deiseindublin wrote: »

If it's one roll number, then it's one school and irrelevant what the breakdown in the FE college is. Even one ASTI member on a staff would have all of the TUI members crossing the picket.

My thoughts exactly! Argument at the moment seems to be that there is only one member of ASTI in the college so it is unlikely that there will be a picket.
Not sure what that ASTI member intends to do if they're not picketing at their place of work.

deiseindublin

Surely if it's one roll number and one Principal then members of the 2nd level school could help with the picket at the college? Only a case of splitting up the rota.

Westeros

deiseindublin wrote: »

Surely if it's one roll number and one Principal then members of the 2nd level school could help with the picket at the college? Only a case of splitting up the rota.

I'm getting the impression the principal would rather keep the college open and limit the strike to the school only, stressing that that was the way it was done for the last big strike. Afaik the last strike was surrounding Junior Cert reform, which wasn't very relevant to the college. However, the issue of pay applies across the board.

deiseindublin

The strike issue is irrelevant though. An ASTI strike is an ASTI strike, 1 member pr 100% staff membership, it doesn't matter. It's not up to the principal.

Ask ASTI rep to pose the question to the area rep and I'm sure they'll be saying same thing.

man_no_plan

deiseindublin wrote: »

The strike issue is irrelevant though. An ASTI strike is an ASTI strike, 1 member pr 100% staff membership, it doesn't matter. It's not up to the principal.

Ask ASTI rep to pose the question to the area rep and I'm sure they'll be saying same thing.

This isn't an all out strike though and TUI, IMPACT, SIPTU etc workers in a school or centre arentbin dispute. What may close a school is an inability to provide a service and health and safety. If only one teacher (as in one ASTI member) is in dispute could that be enough to close a school?

In normal IR issues a strike by one grade doesn't close a workplace automatically.

If there are enough TUI people on staff, for s/s for example, the withdrawal of the ASTI may not close the school. This is only relevant to dual union schools of course.

There are very clear guidelines on striking. ASTI would need to apply to ICTU for an all out strike to guarantee closing of schools.

Whether local management would force the issue is another Matter. It would be foolish to do so in my view but there can be no accounting for the actions of a CEO.

deiseindublin

I'm talking about a picket for the rolling strike days, not S&S withdrawal.

evolving_doors

deiseindublin wrote: »

I'm talking about a picket for the rolling strike days, not S&S withdrawal.

So it'll be just the one ASTI striking (although if they alert union they might send others around!). it's not an all out strike so leaving aside the issue of not having enough cover to ensure student safety, then the school carries on.

deiseindublin

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/1018/824857-tui-meeting/

RealJohn

It would be very disappointing if the TUI do anything other than tell their members not to pass the picket, especially given that they'd be telling their members to pass a picket manned by their colleagues (but even if the picket was by a union representing a different group of workers, that should still be the message).

Our place is in an odd position. Technically, we're dual union but we only have one member of staff in the ASTI and apparently, they'be been informed that they're not allowed to picket on their own on health and safety grounds. If there's no actual picketing going on, would it still be considered passing the picket (since I assume that my colleague still won't be at work on strike days)?

Also, in terms of letters, do those letters just say you're available for work or that you're available for work but won't pass a picket? If the latter, I don't see the problem. If the former, those who sign it should (in theory) pass the picket and sit in the car park if the school is closed. Otherwise they're not available for work and the letter is a lie.

darlett

RealJohn wrote: »

It would be very disappointing if the TUI do anything other than tell their members not to pass the picket, especially given that they'd be telling their members to pass a picket manned by their colleagues (but even if the picket was by a union representing a different group of workers, that should still be the message).

Our place is in an odd position. Technically, we're dual union but we only have one member of staff in the ASTI and apparently, they'be been informed that they're not allowed to picket on their own on health and safety grounds.

I' sorry for the disappointment really don't see how the TUI can advise members to stay away. They are their own union and make (much heralded) agreements for their union members, not for another union's members.

Our school also has a very low percentage of ASTI members. Rumours of these members been gathered to picket outside other nearby schools with larger ASTI membership, though I have no idea on the truth or accuracy of that.

I'm also unsure why people seem to take it personal the actions of an individual conforming to their unions dictates. If a TUI teacher doesn't object to an ASTI teacher striking, why can an ASTI teacher object morally to a TUI teacher working?

Only started teaching in January and am currently working on maternity up until Christmas and I hate all this. Have been trying to decide on what union to join, but really I think I will finish my NQT requirements and throw my hand back into industry for a time. Teaching is a very difficult job with out the minefield of trying to get properly paid for it too.