"Locker Room Talk"

lazygal

I'm aghast and amazed, but sadly not at all surprised to see how Donald Trump's comments are being minimised and trivialised as normal banter between men in a locker room. I've also been pretty happy to hear my husband and other man are equally as shocked by the notion that this is how they talk about women in a locker room because it certainly isn't normal conversation for them.
Anyone else bothered at the idea that a 70 year old man can have comments he made as a 59 year old swatted away as locker room talk?

porsche boy

On the overall scale of scandals for Donald Drumpf this is on the smaller end. He has been using the Trump Charitable Foundation to pay out settlements in cases against him. There is still a big bomb to explode regarding Trump University and as for releasing his tax details.... wont happen this side ofmthe election despite the IRS stating on more than one occasion that the audit he is undergoing does not stop him from making records public.

I dont mean to be dismissave of a crass and unpalatable comment made by a grown man trying to impress some nobody but it really isnt the big thing some people are making it. I mean are you suprised he views women as second class citizens? Comments he has made about previous Miss Universe, his ex-wives and his own daughter make me want to puke in his face and rub it in but i react badly to people who believe they are better then others.

What i find most bazarre of all is that he has alienated a large amount of the female vote, the american-mexican vote as well as many other groups and he is only trailing by a few points. He could have completely won this election if he has been managed better. Now thats scary. But really the american people are effectively being asked if they want to be poisoned to death or beaten to death so i can see why its a hard decision. In a fair world Bearnie would be the person for the job.

gosplan

With due respect, it's an attempt to minimise it as 'locker room talk'.

Most people just see it as a guy bragging about sexual assault - which it is.

ShazGV

Saw this earlier, it fairly concisely sums up my feelings on the whole thing:

bee06

The only people I've heard minimising the comments have been Donald Trump and his supporters. The fact that support him in the first place says all I need to know about the type of people they are. As the Donald himself said he could shoot someone in the middle of Times Square and they'd still support him.

sullivlo

I've been thinking about this a lot.

I'm not a guy. I don't know what goes on in locker rooms from a guys point of view. If it's anything like girls talk over a bottle of wine, its going to be "isn't Brad Pitt a total ride, what I wouldn't give to have my wicked ways with him" - or similar. It wouldn't be "I'm going to grab Brad Pitts willy because I can."

Locker room talk doesn't endorse what boils down to sexual assault.

I was on a night out last year. It was a pretty long one, but I hadn't had very much to drink. I was walking across the dance floor of a reputable institution ( :P ) and some guy grabbed my bum. Not a pinch. A full on grope. When I turned around he made to grab for my boobs but I turned and walked away (as best I could in a crowded club). He was persistent, I'll give him that. He followed me and kept trying to grope me again. Eventually I snapped and stamped on his foot (with my heel) as hard as I could. He got the message and stopped, but I felt bad for hurting him when I thought about the incident later on.

Trump can't be allowed become president if that's the kind of behaviour he condones.

skallywag

lazygal wrote: »

Anyone else bothered at the idea that a 70 year old man can have comments he made as a 59 year old swatted away as locker room talk?

I don't see how it has been swatted away by anyone at all outside of the Trump camp, and even plenty of those (e.g. his running mate) are aghast at it. Pratically all reports on the topic have deemed it deplorable, or have I missed something?

baby and crumble

Chris Kluwe (a retired NFL player) wrote a great piece on this the other day. It's worth a read.

http://www.vox.com/first-person/2016/10/10/13230346/donald-trump-locker-room-talk-chris-kluwe

robyntmorton

sullivlo wrote: »

I was on a night out last year. It was a pretty long one, but I hadn't had very much to drink. I was walking across the dance floor of a reputable institution ( :P ) and some guy grabbed my bum. Not a pinch. A full on grope. When I turned around he made to grab for my boobs but I turned and walked away (as best I could in a crowded club). He was persistent, I'll give him that. He followed me and kept trying to grope me again. Eventually I snapped and stamped on his foot (with my heel) as hard as I could. He got the message and stopped, but I felt bad for hurting him when I thought about the incident later on.

Personally I wouldn't feel bad about hurting him. What he did would count as sexual assault. You have a right to use reasonable force to defend yourself. I would have considered what you did as restrained.

mahamageehad

The best comment that I've seen on this is that Trumps comments are an insult to women everywhere. And his attempts to mask it as locker room talk is an insult to men everywhere.

It's funny, it's far from the worst thing that Trump has said, yet this one seems to have resonated the most. Not sure if it's because it offends more people, if it's because it's getting so close to election date or simply because it's the final straw for some people.

sullivlo

I think it could be to do with people relating more to sexual violence.

Imagine your stereotypical American man/woman. Lives in a big town down South that was hit hard by the recession. You need your gun for protection - so anything he says that is pro-guns, FAB! You're still in a largely traditional family set up - the man earns the money, the woman cooks the food, so any comments suggesting that women are to be pleasing to the eye - yeah, I can get on board with that. Your job is under threat because the Mexicans are coming in and working for less money - OMG I will help him to BUILD the wall (we only have to look at our neighbours across the sea to see that racism can win/lose elections).

Women thinking "Oh wait, I actually don't like it when some randomer grabs me by the p***y" - they're going to think that maybe the guy who said it is full of crap. Men will think "I don't actually want to be assosciated with somebody who thinks that it's appropriate to do that to my mother/sister/wife/daughter".

I can certainly add my voice to the wealth of men who are saying that this form of sexual violence is not representative of any form of "locker room" I have ever been in. And I have been in a few and still often am. And I would - where possible - simply refuse to return to one where it occurred. And I am - and am in a circle of friend who are - very interested in sex and talking about sex - at the drop of a hat. But never in terms even remotely represented by Trump.

Not everyone is so lucky though it seems.

Scarinae

Michelle Obama's speech yesterday addressing this is worth watching:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBc5DHIrwKw

She called Donald Trump's recently surfaced comments about groping women as "shocking and demeaning," saying that to dismiss it as "locker room talk" is an insult to decent men everywhere.

There are longer versions of her speech as well, like this one.

sullivlo

I have such a girl crush on Michelle Obama. She is the person in life who I would most like to be like.

robyntmorton

sullivlo wrote: »

I have such a girl crush on Michelle Obama. She is the person in life who I would most like to be like.

I'm not Michelle Obama, but I approve this message anyway.

ancapailldorcha

None of my friends has ever said anything even remotely like this. As has been noted, it's only Trump's fan base who are dismissing this as banter or something equally moronic. I genuinely don't think he can say anything to alienate them.

sullivlo

I read this on Facebook earlier.

It may contain triggers for people, but it is an incredibly well written piece. Her strength is incredible.

It's taken me two weeks to write this. It's awful. I hope you read it.

---

The first man who kissed me when I didn’t want him to was the boyfriend of my babysitter. He lifted me up by my armpits, sat me on the kitchen counter, leaned over me and slid his tongue into my mouth. I was eight years old.

I don’t know why he thought he could do this. I wasn’t acting sexy. I was reading Beverly Cleary books and wishing I could be a horse.

Do you think he had been listening to locker room banter?

The second time I was kissed I was twelve or thirteen. My mother’s boyfriend came into my room to say goodnight. He sat on my bed, ran his hand under the covers and put his fingers up inside me. It hurt. He made me hold his penis and rub it. He told me it was “safe” to have sex with him—he’d had a vasectomy and wouldn’t get me pregnant. He laughed.

I went to school the next day, sitting in class like nothing happened. I told my mother only that he had propositioned me, not anything else. It took twenty years and much therapy before I could tell her the full story, before I could admit it even to myself.

This man had known me since I was nine—he had two daughters. How had this happened? Had he started listening to locker room banter?

I pretended I was okay, but I tried to kill myself not long after that. Twice.

When I was fifteen I was date raped at summer camp by a boy I had a crush on. I said “No.” I said “Stop.” I tried pushing him away. Did he not hear me?

Perhaps his ears were too full of locker room banter.

The next day I tried to talk to him, to tell him what had happened wasn't okay. He looked at me with a blank face and dead eyes. “What happened?” he asked.

He acknowledged nothing. To him it was nothing. I was nothing.

I feared I was pregnant afterwards. I wept in relief when I wasn’t.

I blamed myself. Maybe I should have protested louder. Maybe I shouldn’t have let him hold my hand. But I thought he wanted to be my boyfriend. I thought wrong.

I ran into that boy at a Christmas party decades later. “Hey,” he said, smiling. “Long time, no see.”

To him it was still nothing.

I started wearing my brother’s clothes—baggy sweatshirts and jeans so big I had to roll down the waistband to keep them up. I gained weight. I didn’t drink alcohol in high school; it would have made me feel too vulnerable.

But simply being a woman made me vulnerable. There was nothing I could do to avoid that.

In college I was careful. If a guy showed interest and seemed safe and we started dating, I pretended to get drunk and pass out, just to see what he might do. Would he put a blanket over me and be kind, would he push me aside in disgust or anger at not getting what he wanted, or would he take the opportunity to go up my shirt or down my pants? I needed to know if I could trust him when no one was looking.

I chose well and never had to deal with the latter. Some guys don’t listen to locker room banter.

When I was twenty, I went running on a bike path along a river in the city where I was a student. There was a park and families came to enjoy the sunset in the evenings. Fishermen lined the water. It was a popular place.

That day had been rainy. The clouds cleared by late afternoon, but when I arrived the park was empty. I had never seen it like this.

As I ran, I heard footsteps that got louder—two men, running directly behind me. Turning my head I got a glimpse of them. They were not wearing running clothes.

I sped up, trying to outpace them. They sped up too. They began to grab my ass.

I whirled around to face them but they grabbed at my breasts. I broke off and ran away from them—faster this time, but they kept up. Their legs were longer, they were stronger, and there were two of them. They kept grabbing at me. I kept breaking away and trying to outrun them. I kept failing.

I could kick them in the shins, I thought, I could kick them in the balls. I had been learning how to play rugby; I knew how to tackle.

But I wouldn’t want to hurt them.

That was the thought that leapt unbidden to my mind: I wouldn’t want to hurt them.

I had been raised to see men, all people, as human, to be concerned about their welfare, to be a nurturer, to care. I had never listened to locker room banter.

I was also practical: I didn’t want the encounter to turn violent. They were bigger and they were stronger. If I ended up on the ground, I’d have no chance.

I kept pushing their hands away from my body. I wrenched one arm down so strongly I ripped the man’s watch off his wrist and it fell to the ground. He reached down to grab it, cursing.

In that brief pause it occurred to me to scream—the one thing I hadn’t tried. There was no one around to hear me, but I screamed anyway; I made as much noise as I could.

They ran away, laughing.

On the subway home, I sat on the hard, plastic seat rocking back and forth. There were four other people in the compartment: two male riders and a man and woman, holding hands. The train compartments did not have doors connecting the cars. I felt sick, panicked that the couple might get off at the next station and leave me in a closed compartment with two men. I no longer knew what they might be capable of.

I didn’t cry until my roommate came home that night. When I saw her, I burst into tears and she thought someone had died. She was not entirely wrong.

The next day I asked the dean of my academic program to go with me to the police station. We spent the afternoon looking at mug shots of known rapists. There were pages and pages of them.

Had they all been listening to locker room banter?

We didn’t find my attackers; I hadn’t expected we would. I wanted only for this crime to be recorded, to be a number. I wanted my pain to be counted.

The police told me it was the fault of the immigrants.

When I returned to school I explained to my professor why I had missed class. “What were you wearing?” she asked me.

“A long-sleeve, faded red sweatshirt and baggy shorts.”

“See,” she said. “You were practically asking for it.”

Perhaps she had been listening to locker room banter as well.

There have been other instances as well, though less violent. Boys who were dating my girlfriends who also tried to kiss me in secret. There was the coworker who, in front of our shared work colleagues, announced that my breasts were like overgrown melons. He was 56 and a father of daughters; I was 23. There was the man in southern Italy who grabbed at me as we passed each other on the sidewalk, laughing with his friends. There was the teenager who stood near me at an empty train station on a cold January day in Japan. It was snowy and he was shivering, his thin shoulders shaking. I worried about him. Until I saw that he was masturbating.

I have been catcalled and followed and made to feel unsafe on three continents and in more countries than I care to count. The only thing I have done was to be female and to have the gall to leave the house. Though life has taught me that you don’t need to leave the house to be harassed or hurt.

You might think I’m beautiful, to get this much attention, but I’m not. I don’t wear makeup. I don’t wear jewelry. I don’t make an effort. My hair is pulled back in a ponytail and I’m overweight; I feel safer this way.

How do I dress? Modestly. I like turtlenecks and long scarves. I rarely show my legs. I buy dresses but can’t bring myself to wear them because they don't feel safe. I wear shoes I can run in, in case I might need to get away.

Most of the time I wear the same black fleece vest that zips into a turtleneck. It’s old and starting to fade. I should get rid of it, but I can’t. It cloaks my stomach, waist, and chest. It makes me feel safe. It feels like my armor.

But my appearance is irrelevant and these are the wrong questions to be asking.

The mistake we make is thinking that harassment is about desire, lust, or even attraction. It’s not. Harassment is about dominance. It is saying: I am more powerful than you are. I can do what I want.

I once asked a therapist why it is that I have experienced four instances of significant sexual abuse in my life. FOUR. It’s enough to make you think I might have been careless rather than just unlucky.

My therapist answered slowly. “Sometimes, when a person has experienced trauma, their protection instincts are damaged and it leaves them open and more likely to experience abuse again.”

I’ve thought about this a lot. I imagine it might be true for some people, but it’s not my truth.

My abuse has not left me open, it’s made me close myself off. I don’t smile at people on the street. If a man asks me what time it is, I shrug and keep walking. To stop and look at a watch or phone would put me at risk. In a full parking lot, I would never park next to a van.

I am always wary. I cross the street to avoid walking by people in the dark. I avoid walking by large bushes. At parties I listen to multiple conversations at once. I used to think this was my special talent and I would have made a good spy, but it’s typical behavior for abuse survivors. We are on alert at all times. You never know where the threat might come from.

Relationships are hard, even friendships. It’s difficult to trust people. When your human connections have been so violated you become a country unto yourself. You do not reach out, it’s far too dangerous.

I wonder what life might have been like had these things not happened to me. Would I have married? Would I have had children? The idea of walking down an aisle wearing a wedding dress and having people stare at me fills me with horror. Since I was a little girl all I’ve wanted to do is hide. All I want to do is keep myself safe.

Sometimes I see women who are small—thin arms and tiny waists—and I wonder how they can stand to be in this world. How can they possibly feel safe? I think of the words of writer Roxanne Gay, a survivor of childhood rape: “I got to make my body into what I wanted it to be, which is a fortress.”

I recognize other abuse victims, I see myself in them. We have a need to be in control. Sometimes we are anorexic or bulimic, exerting a control over our bodies that has been taken from us. Sometimes we harm or self-injure, treating ourselves as poorly as we have been treated. Sometimes we kill ourselves. When I hear news of a female suicide, I always wonder. To exist in a world that has betrayed you in such a fundamental way can be unbearable.

Often we are overweight, as if we are padding ourselves against the sharp edges of the world. In a culture that still values women mostly for their looks, being overweight is the easiest way of hiding in plain sight. If you get really overweight, men won't even look you in the eye. Often this feels like a relief.

But this does not protect you from violence—because abuse is not a sign of attraction. And if women are valued mostly for their looks, and you refuse to play that game, what then is your value?

You might think I hate men, but I don’t. Some I have even loved, some I’ve let love me. But men have no idea what it’s like to walk through a world that is not designed for them. Even the very best men in my life cannot understand this. They cannot fathom the disrespect, the danger. If they did, they would be outraged.

I hate it only when men refuse to believe that I do not experience life the same way they do. I hate it when they refuse to listen, when they won’t try to understand. I hate it when they say they are not sexist.

To say you are not sexist (or racist, or phobic) is always the wrong answer. The right answer is a question:

Why do you think that?
What did I do that makes you feel that way?
What does sexist mean to you?
What am I not understanding in this situation? Can you help me see it?

You might think I cry over these things, but I don’t. Not often. To cry one must feel things, and I’ve worked hard to muffle those feelings. It’s exhausting, this sexism. It’s unrelenting. Most women just sigh.

Sometimes we speak out—to which we’re generally told to have a sense of humor, that boys will be boys, or it’s just locker room banter. Sometimes we’re called feminist bitch or threatened. So we wake up every day and just get on with it.

I’m pretty tough, I’ve had to be. But this election has made me cry—at home, in the car, while I'm working. I cry in anger, I cry in frustration, I cry in fear.

This isn’t about politics (though of course it is). This is about decency. This is about respect. This is about a vision of America as a place for all of us—even if you’re female, even if you’re a person of color, even if you’re an immigrant, even if you practice a different religion.

Instead we have a candidate saying: I am more powerful than you, I can do what I want. When you’re a star, you can do anything.

It was years before found the courage to talk about these things with friends, and when I did most of them said some version of, “Yeah, me too.” Studies say one in five women will be a victim of sexual abuse, but those numbers are vastly underreported. In my circle of friends it’s more like 80%.

We are not in some high-risk group for abuse, either. We are, for the most part, sheltered white girls who grew up in the suburbs. Imagine if we had less privilege, less protection. Imagine if we spoke with an accent or came from another country or had to undertake work that put us at risk.

Privilege does not protect you from gender violence, but I have to believe it helps. When I’ve spoken up about what has happened to me, I have been believed. Many are not.

In self-defense classes, they teach women not to shout “rape” or even “help” if they are being attacked. They teach us to scream “fire.” They say people are more likely to respond if you do.

It’s been twenty years now, but I have a better answer for the question I once asked my therapist: Why is it that I have experienced so much abuse, so much violence in my life?

It’s because I am a woman. Because there is simply that much violence against women in this world.

Can we please make sure it doesn’t end up in the White House?
The Oval Office is no place for locker room banter.

#itsnotokay

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sullivlo

Rereg wrote: »

Snip.

There's a big difference between letting somebody do something and wanting somebody to do something. Having somebody touch you inappropriately doesn't mean that you consent to it. Just like wearing a short skirt doesn't mean that you're asking for it.

robyntmorton

Rereg wrote: »

Snip.

Letting someone do it is not consent. In case that's not clear let's say that again - IT IS NOT CONSENT.

If someone (hypothetically - and I apologise if this feels like a trigger for some) was to rape a person, while holding a knife to their throat, would it count as consent if you let them do it? Or would it be that fear of having your throat cut left you feeling that you had no other choice?

(It of course does not have to be a threat of physical violence. Psychological abuse can do just as much damage)

Tell me, if you would be so kind, how that is consent?

bee06

Rereg wrote: »

Snip.

They also wouldn't discribe consensual genital touching as "grabbing by the pussy" or say when they see a beautiful woman they can't help themselves, they just start kissing them.

mrkiscool2

I'm not going to minimise anything anyone said here, because that would be disrespectful to do so. But let me talk about what locker room talk really is.

It's definitely problematic on very rare occasions. People talking about women like they are property instead of people. 99% of the time though, it is fine. I think there are only two occasions in a locker room (played for 3 different rugby teams and 2 different college teams in my life, as well as a tennis player) where I have heard comments something relating to something that Trump might call "locker room talk" and both guys were called out on it. I've heard a guy ask everyone in the locker room is the guy giving or receiving fellatio the gay one, I've heard is having sex with a woman while on her period a form of vampirism (not joking) and a lot of other stupid things.

What Trump is saying isn't locker room talk, it is, at the very least, suggesting that sexual harassment is okay. Any locker I've been in, while there can be some problematic conversation, it rarely borders on that and when it does, the guy doing it is called out on it.

professore

"Locker room talk" would possibly include topics such as what women you find sexually attractive. Maybe saying you would like to kiss them or sleep with them. Certainly not kissing them or sexually assaulting them. The same sort of stuff women talk about when they get together. That guy does exist but he's the sort most give a wide berth.

And mostly locker room talk is just about the sport you just played, the economy, work, Donald Trump, complaining about your wife etc ... More so as you get older.

Anyway, Trump is just bad on every level so this is no surprise.