Should I join a Union

magicman321

I am a teacher who has been subbing for a few years (Qualified pre the cuts to NQT's) and so I always said that if I get a slightly perminant job I would look at the union situation. In september I finally got a teaching post for a full year contract.

The school that I have gotten the post is mostly ASTI there are some non union and TUI people also.

What my question is, is...given the situation we are in at the moment with unions etc. Should I think of joining a union and if so should I go with the majority of ASTI in the school or not?

deiseindublin

Yes and Yes.

Subutai

If I were in your situation, I would check that the TUI are recognised in your school and if so I would join them.


I am an NQT in an ASTI school, so I have no choice but to join the ASTI or remain outside the Union. I have joined the ASTI, despite my disagreement with them in relation to their positions on the JCSA and LRA, because I feel that being within the union is still preferable. If there is industrial action you are better off being within the union structures. The last strikes saw a Labour minister, who was never going to order non-union teachers to pass the picket. We now have a Fine Gael education minister, the first in a long time, who, if the situation escalates, may not be so diplomatic.

I would never pass a picket line, or act as a blackleg in S&S. Being in the union is the only real way to avoid that.

deiseindublin

Have to disagree with you Subutai, there's no reason for anybody to join the TUI, they've lost direction and their backbone and are not interested in representing their members. Avoid at all costs.

happywithlife

Interested on opinions in this too. joined ASTI a few backs as was in an ASTI school. Membership lapsed when I left that school and after 12 months out subsequently ended up in a TUI school but never joined. Now I'm fresh in the door in a mixed school and not sure what to do. Principal has 'let slip' she switched to TUI a few years back and I was put on the S&S roster immediately upon starting. My ASTI rep is to get back to me regarding membership. But others have said I'm mad as membership lapsed a couple of years back so they think I should join tui as I'd be entitled to CID after the 2 years . It's a right mess

evolving_doors

happywithlife wrote: »

Interested on opinions in this too. joined ASTI a few backs as was in an ASTI school. Membership lapsed when I left that school and after 12 months out subsequently ended up in a TUI school but never joined. Now I'm fresh in the door in a mixed school and not sure what to do. Principal has 'let slip' she switched to TUI a few years back and I was put on the S&S roster immediately upon starting. My ASTI rep is to get back to me regarding membership. But others have said I'm mad as membership lapsed a couple of years back so they think I should join tui as I'd be entitled to CID after the 2 years . It's a right mess

If you go back to ASTI you'd have to pay back subs though!

happywithlife

Gebgbegb wrote: »

If you go back to ASTI you'd have to pay back subs though!

Am aware of that but that's my own fault I guess. Won't be much I'd think as only had part time work for some of the year

mirrorwall14

I would be joining ASTI if I had the choice

questionmark

I am also confused as what to do about joining a union. I just graduated this year and have been getting little bits of sub work here and their ,am i maybe best waiting till i have a position in a school ?

Terri26

The one year/two year CID for TUI is a bit of a misnomer. Remember you have to get your own hours in the third year. We would hope that the problem will be sorted by then. Surely a legal case will be taken then/by then if someone is not made permanent purely on their union membership especially when this was not mentioned as a consequence /threat before the vote took place. The ASTI is the only union taking action for NQTs/LPTs. Remember that please.

Notorious

Terri26 wrote: »

The one year/two year CID for TUI is a bit of a misnomer. Remember you have to get your own hours in the third year. We would hope that the problem will be sorted by then. Surely a legal case will be taken then/by then if someone is not made permanent...

Actually it's not a misnomer Terri26. Last summer ASTI teachers who were due to get their CID after a two year stint never got it. You'll find evidence of that by past posts on boards or through Voice for Teachers on Facebook.

I know that my ETB issued CID contracts in the days before the ASTI vote results were issued. I'm not sure if that's because I'm in a TUI school or because HR were doing everyone a solid.

While I'm delighted that the ASTI are fighting the good fight, I do think it's important that NQT's are given all the relevant facts before picking a union. On this issue I'd side with the stance of the ASTI, but overall both unions are as bad as each other.

Crazyteacher

questionmark wrote: »

I am also confused as what to do about joining a union. I just graduated this year and have been getting little bits of sub work here and their ,am i maybe best waiting till i have a position in a school ?

That's what I'm doing. It doesn't make sense to join one particular Union and be in a tui school tomorrow and an Asti school on Tuesday. Wait until you have some steady hours and then decide.

RealJohn

Do join a union and, especially since the majority in the school are already there, join the ASTI. I'm TUI and I really feel like the leadership have no stomach for a fight. We had one of the local union reps in the school last week to talk about to us and I got the impression that, while she knew the right things to say to placate those who didn't know anything, she knew very little about anything outside the standard line of questioning. Her main message was that they were working on getting the newer teachers on an equal pay scale to the older teachers but even there, she was poor on the minutiae.

I'm stuck with the TUI since everyone in my place (bar one) is with them but I wouldn't recommend them.

gaiscioch

I find all this talk about getting a CID to be a pliant distraction from the far more important discussion of what actually constitutes a CID now. To my mind (pre-2011) a CID is not a CID as we knew it if the only way you'll get it now is by signing up to a plethora of working conditions which transform your job as a teacher into an English-style, form-filling, paper-obsessed administrator of classrooms doing a wide array of bureaucratic tasks which are at best - at very very very best - only tangentially connected with the passionate, inspiring and creative role of a teacher dealing with 25-30 individuals in each class (if this government genuinely wanted to engage in reform, reducing class sizes and the range within them is precisely where they would start but this has never been about reform, it's about imposing a culture change that gets more low-grade unconnected work out of us for less money).

An awful lot of the views in favour of this government's policy are based on naïvety, on wishful thinking of the most self-defeating sort: if we accept this, things might change. Acceptance of a definite negative change to your working conditions in the hope of possible positive changes. What a "deal". Madness.

Of course, people respond "but we will get a CID". It may say CID on the tin, but make no mistake that the young eager people in their early 20s now will be the burnt-out enervated adults in their late 30s trying to rear their own kids. They will still be forced to attend a ridiculous number of after-school meetings and then come home to look after their own kids and do a never-ending number of corrections and plans in line with circular x, y, and z [revised edition of revised edition (amended)].

Where are you going to get all this energy for corrections and planning at 8pm? Oh, and then your kids keep you up at night or you have to leave work early to collect them from crèche as they're sick and you spend half your time trying to get out of pointless bullshít meeting A, B, and C to look after them (to "facilitate" you, they've added before-school meetings for some days as a "major victory" in TUI/INTO negotiations in 2030...) But because you're from Dublin you can't afford to buy or rent property on a teacher's salary beside your parents so you had to move away from that vital family support that could ease your childcare pressures. And you're just fúcking burnt out with all the unconnected bullshít that is suffocating your love for teaching, a job you (academically finishing in the top 10% of your year) never chose for the money (obviously) but for the quality of life in non-financial terms that it gave you. A job where you had the energy to make a difference, to take kids under your wing and get them over the line and allow them to get to third level and change their worlds. Now, there's form DDT666 which has to be filled in for volunteering after school tuition, but of course it's never used (except by the now even larger number of part-time teachers who are awaiting their CIDs and are eager to impress, before getting their CIDs after 2 years and quitting teaching 5 years later) because you have all those after-school meetings about meetings defining the pseudo profession of teaching in 2030 in a world where the rich are infinitely richer than ever and the poor relatively poorer than at any time since the Welfare State was introduced in the late 1940s (unsurprising to see a billionaire as guest of honour at our governing party's fundraiser last night - they aren't even pretending to be representing the greater good of society anymore).

And this is all before you get to what your salary will be. Say you get this CID and, more remarkably, you manage to stay in teaching until you're earning €50,000 per annum, take a trip over to Daft.ie or Myhome.ie and do the sums. You can borrow 3.5 times your salary, which is €175,000. Assuming you have a partner, double that for the sake of argument. But given that the past 20 years have witnessed property prices in Dublin increasing far more exponentially than salaries (and, as is Fine Gael's wont, to help property developers our budget this Tuesday is going to increase those prices further), it's decidedly wishful thinking (again!) to expect you'll get a better house for your teacher's salary in 20 years' time. Sorry for the dispiriting picture above but the positive side is that despite the defeatists and their myopia we still have a much better chance of stopping all this in 2016 than we'll have in 2026.

Subutai

deiseindublin wrote: »

Have to disagree with you Subutai, there's no reason for anybody to join the TUI, they've lost direction and their backbone and are not interested in representing their members. Avoid at all costs.

I disagree. I feel that the tactics (or, to be honest, lack thereof) of the ASTI have been disastrous for NQTs in particular, and the profession in general.

clunked

Subutai wrote: »

I disagree. I feel that the tactics (or, to be honest, lack thereof) of the ASTI have been disastrous for NQTs in particular, and the profession in general.

So you think that the surrender tactics by the INTO and TUI not wishing to offend their buddies in the Department has delivered for the teaching profession. I feel that we need to stand up for ourselves because being the nice children in class hasn't worked for us, either LPTs or more experienced teachers like myself.

implausible

gaiscioch wrote:

To my mind (pre-2011) a CID is not a CID as we knew it if the only way you'll get it now is by signing up to a plethora of working conditions which transform your job as a teacher into an English-style, form-filling, paper-obsessed administrator of classrooms doing a wide array of bureaucratic tasks

What are you referring to here?

clunked

implausible wrote: »

What are you referring to here?

Your future if you are not careful and if certain bureaucrats get their way.

implausible

Specifically though? I hear these references to mountains of paperwork and a bureaucratic system, but what change in our working conditions is going to create all of this?

magicman321

Just wondering also if I wait to join a union until after the ASTI strike actions, what possible implications that would mean for me during the up coming strikes?

mtoutlemonde

magicman321 wrote: »

Just wondering also if I wait to join a union until after the ASTI strike actions, what possible implications that would mean for me during the up coming strikes?

You pass the picket or don't turn up to work.

deiseindublin

I don't understand why you're not joining. Your original post said you were waiting for something more permanent. You've got a year contract now? Do you not want to support the LPTs or get S&S pay reinstated?

If you don't join the union you will have to cross the picket or use an uncertified day. Uncertified days will add up though if the dispute goes on for any length.

Corkgirl18

I'm also unsure of what to do. I graduated last year and am working in a TUI Community College. Most people I talk to say join the ASTI but there is no point if I'm the only ASTI in the school is there? Its all fairly confusing.

acequion

gaiscioch wrote: »

I find all this talk about getting a CID to be a pliant distraction from the far more important discussion of what actually constitutes a CID now. To my mind (pre-2011) a CID is not a CID as we knew it if the only way you'll get it now is by signing up to a plethora of working conditions which transform your job as a teacher into an English-style, form-filling, paper-obsessed administrator of classrooms doing a wide array of bureaucratic tasks which are at best - at very very very best - only tangentially connected with the passionate, inspiring and creative role of a teacher dealing with 25-30 individuals in each class (if this government genuinely wanted to engage in reform, reducing class sizes and the range within them is precisely where they would start but this has never been about reform, it's about imposing a culture change that gets more low-grade unconnected work out of us for less money).

An awful lot of the views in favour of this government's policy are based on naïvety, on wishful thinking of the most self-defeating sort: if we accept this, things might change. Acceptance of a definite negative change to your working conditions in the hope of possible positive changes. What a "deal". Madness.

Of course, people respond "but we will get a CID". It may say CID on the tin, but make no mistake that the young eager people in their early 20s now will be the burnt-out enervated adults in their late 30s trying to rear their own kids. They will still be forced to attend a ridiculous number of after-school meetings and then come home to look after their own kids and do a never-ending number of corrections and plans in line with circular x, y, and z [revised edition of revised edition (amended)].

Where are you going to get all this energy for corrections and planning at 8pm? Oh, and then your kids keep you up at night or you have to leave work early to collect them from crèche as they're sick and you spend half your time trying to get out of pointless bullshít meeting A, B, and C to look after them (to "facilitate" you, they've added before-school meetings for some days as a "major victory" in TUI/INTO negotiations in 2030...) But because you're from Dublin you can't afford to buy or rent property on a teacher's salary beside your parents so you had to move away from that vital family support that could ease your childcare pressures. And you're just fúcking burnt out with all the unconnected bullshít that is suffocating your love for teaching, a job you (academically finishing in the top 10% of your year) never chose for the money (obviously) but for the quality of life in non-financial terms that it gave you. A job where you had the energy to make a difference, to take kids under your wing and get them over the line and allow them to get to third level and change their worlds. Now, there's form DDT666 which has to be filled in for volunteering after school tuition, but of course it's never used (except by the now even larger number of part-time teachers who are awaiting their CIDs and are eager to impress, before getting their CIDs after 2 years and quitting teaching 5 years later) because you have all those after-school meetings about meetings defining the pseudo profession of teaching in 2030 in a world where the rich are infinitely richer than ever and the poor relatively poorer than at any time since the Welfare State was introduced in the late 1940s (unsurprising to see a billionaire as guest of honour at our governing party's fundraiser last night - they aren't even pretending to be representing the greater good of society anymore).

And this is all before you get to what your salary will be. Say you get this CID and, more remarkably, you manage to stay in teaching until you're earning €50,000 per annum, take a trip over to Daft.ie or Myhome.ie and do the sums. You can borrow 3.5 times your salary, which is €175,000. Assuming you have a partner, double that for the sake of argument. But given that the past 20 years have witnessed property prices in Dublin increasing far more exponentially than salaries (and, as is Fine Gael's wont, to help property developers our budget this Tuesday is going to increase those prices further), it's decidedly wishful thinking (again!) to expect you'll get a better house for your teacher's salary in 20 years' time. Sorry for the dispiriting picture above but the positive side is that despite the defeatists and their myopia we still have a much better chance of stopping all this in 2016 than we'll have in 2026.

Absolutely brilliant post. You paint the future exactly as is. When we are constantly being told,"get real" this is the "real" that should be published in every paper,this not so brave new world of the future where the rich will indeed be richer, the poor,poorer and the teacher, a very overworked,lower middle class box ticker raising his kids in rented accommodation.

acequion

implausible wrote: »

Specifically though? I hear these references to mountains of paperwork and a bureaucratic system, but what change in our working conditions is going to create all of this?

implausible, not so long ago at a subject inspection I got a bit of a telling off by the inspector for not always signing and dating corrected work. She imperiously informed me that I must "cover myself". "Cover myself" for what I asked,to which she could not give any kind of concrete answer. But I got the message. So now every now and then I take a notion and sign and date the work. I mightn't even look at the work but I sign and date because after all that's the most important! [I'm being fairly tongue in cheek by the way because when I take up work I spend hours on it but dont usually sign and date it. However I will do just the above the odd time with say,first years to "cover myself"]

Now if you've done correcting for the SEC you will be familiar with the reams of paper work which accounts for about 40% of the overall work. Scrud 60's, reports, reasonable accomodation, grade recording lists etc etc. And do you really not think that if the new JC gets up and running the way they want it to,leading on to a "reformed" LC in time, with SLAR's,SBA's and what have you, that it won't also be accompanied by reams of paperwork? You might argue that those of you in TUI are doing it already and that it's grand but don't forget that the majority of second level teachers are not doing it so it's not properly in yet. But when and if it does get in you can bet it will be at least 30% paperwork. So I think that poster is telling the future pretty much as is unless the madness is stopped now.

05eaftqbrs9jlh

I'm a 5-year qualified primary school teacher doing subbing and I never joined the INTO because they didn't represent me or my peers. Now that there's going to be a partial pay restoration, I'm considering joining, but I'm very lazy about it because it seems like a pile of money compared with my meagre, inconsistent salary.

Terri26

Notorious wrote:

I know that my ETB issued CID contracts in the days before the ASTI vote results were issued. I'm not sure if that's because I'm in a TUI school or because HR were doing everyone a solid.

Notorious wrote:

Actually it's not a misnomer Terri26. Last summer ASTI teachers who were due to get their CID after a two year stint never got it. You'll find evidence of that by past posts on boards or through Voice for Teachers on Facebook.

They weren't doing you a solid as my school who are all ASTI had 8 CID granted who were due them this year. But I agree not a total misnomer as it may affect people in their second year this year. I still stand by my point as I said Lpts/NQTS joining TUI this year/now ( in their first year of a contract) purely for the 2 year CID was a misnomer as like I said already hopefully it will be sorted by 2 years and a day's time

implausible

acequion wrote: »

implausible, not so long ago at a subject inspection I got a bit of a telling off by the inspector for not always signing and dating corrected work. She imperiously informed me that I must "cover myself". "Cover myself" for what I asked,to which she could not give any kind of concrete answer. But I got the message. So now every now and then I take a notion and sign and date the work. I mightn't even look at the work but I sign and date because after all that's the most important! [I'm being fairly tongue in cheek by the way because when I take up work I spend hours on it but dont usually sign and date it. However I will do just the above the odd time with say,first years to "cover myself"]

Now if you've done correcting for the SEC you will be familiar with the reams of paper work which accounts for about 40% of the overall work. Scrud 60's, reports, reasonable accomodation, grade recording lists etc etc. And do you really not think that if the new JC gets up and running the way they want it to,leading on to a "reformed" LC in time, with SLAR's,SBA's and what have you, that it won't also be accompanied by reams of paperwork? You might argue that those of you in TUI are doing it already and that it's grand but don't forget that the majority of second level teachers are not doing it so it's not properly in yet. But when and if it does get in you can bet it will be at least 30% paperwork. So I think that poster is telling the future pretty much as is unless the madness is stopped now.

I don't see what signing and dating work has to do with 'reams of paperwork', teachers will always have to mark homework. That inspector, however, was obviously looking for some recommendation to make. I've been on the receiving end of those myself.

I've marked for the SEC and know full well the paperwork involved, but that is outside of school work and is voluntary.

For those teachers who are not doing it, here is an example of the 'reams of paperwork' I had to complete for the Oral CBA in English in May:
1. Instead of setting and marking a Summer test, I recorded my students giving a presentation on a topic. While they were presenting, I made notes on a sheet I had designed myself and used one of the descriptors to assess their work- that was one sheet per student.
2. Afterwards, I decided which presentations to show to my colleagues at the SLAR, made a note of them and shared that note with my colleagues.
3. At the SLAR, we viewed samples of each others' students' work and as I filled in a one page summary form of the meeting and gave a copy to my principal. We had two hours to do this.

That's one sheet per student, one note of recordings to be viewed and one report of a meeting. Hardly reams.

I can respect a differing opinion on the merits of the new JC, but implying that teachers will be inundated with paperwork is misrepresenting the workload.

acequion

implausible wrote: »

I don't see what signing and dating work has to do with 'reams of paperwork', teachers will always have to mark homework. That inspector, however, was obviously looking for some recommendation to make. I've been on the receiving end of those myself.

I've marked for the SEC and know full well the paperwork involved, but that is outside of school work and is voluntary.

For those teachers who are not doing it, here is an example of the 'reams of paperwork' I had to complete for the Oral CBA in English in May:
1. Instead of setting and marking a Summer test, I recorded my students giving a presentation on a topic. While they were presenting, I made notes on a sheet I had designed myself and used one of the descriptors to assess their work- that was one sheet per student.
2. Afterwards, I decided which presentations to show to my colleagues at the SLAR, made a note of them and shared that note with my colleagues.
3. At the SLAR, we viewed samples of each others' students' work and as I filled in a one page summary form of the meeting and gave a copy to my principal. We had two hours to do this.

That's one sheet per student, one note of recordings to be viewed and one report of a meeting. Hardly reams.

I can respect a differing opinion on the merits of the new JC, but implying that teachers will be inundated with paperwork is misrepresenting the workload.

I think you miss the point of my post. What I've emboldened above is the core. Now it's outside of school and is voluntary, but the long term aim of CBA is to eventually replace what currently is voluntary and paid. You might disagree and that is your prerogative.

Also in my post I make the very point that you rebut. Currently only a minority of teachers are doing SLARs and SBAs so as yet it's not fully implemented. When /If it becomes fully official the paperwork will be a lot more onerous. Every single thing will have to be documented as is the case with state exams. It will be impossible to be informal about it and impossible not to be bureaucratic.

implausible

Where is your evidence of this? Yes, it was originally envisioned that the SEC would only mark exam papers for the first few years, but the revised document states that: "Externally set and marked subject examinations, of no longer than two hours, will complement classroom-based assessment of students’ achievements. The external examinations will be set, held and marked by the State Examinations Commission (SEC). The examinations will be held in the month of June in third year. "





But Junior Cycle English IS fully implemented in ETB schools and is official and I've outlined the extent of the documentation e.g. each student's performance is recorded and then documented on one page. As it is not for state certification and is not externally verified, it's being kept simple.

Why do you think that the same procedure will require more paperwork in the future? Obviously, when your second subject comes on line, there will be another set of CBAs to do. Each teacher will assess their own classes, but the reporting will be up to the junior cycle coordinator.

Has there been new information from the dept or NCCA that I am not aware of, indicating that the paperwork will increase substantially?