Loss of employers bank lodgement

Dingledangle

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Frynge

Straight up to the boss and tell them. Have a friend or colleague with them when they bring it to their attention.

If your friend is as honest as you say the boss will know they are not lying but they still might be mad.

In years to come they will look back asking themselve why they didnt tell sooner

seamus

First things first, they need to tell the employer. The longer this goes on, the more likely it is that the employer will notice the money missing and assume your friend has stolen it.

It is the very first thing they should have done. Misplacing the money is their error, but their employer's problem. They do not have an obligation to repay the money, as it was lost in the course of their duties.

Engage a solicitor to ensure they get the best advice, and then notify the employer of what happened. They could lose their job. But that's better than being charged with theft. Or having their mental health suffer because they're hiding this issue.

seamus

They don't really have any obligation to pay the money back.

The employer would need to prove gross negligence on the part of the employee and spend years chasing a civil case in court. They wouldn't bother for the sake of 8 grand.

The employer would need to prove theft in order to prosecute. Unless they can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the money was stolen and not lost, they won't prosecute.

But they should get a solicitor's advice before going to the employer, so they can be sure on their rights and obligations.

That's really all there is to it;

1. Talk to a solicitor
2. Stop repaying the lost money
3. Come clean with the employer
4. Deal with whatever happens after that.

_Brian

Ok guys but the **** is going to hit the fan here now, going to the boss and saying you lost €8k six weeks ago and tried to hide that fact rather than come clean.
There's gross misconduct straight off and an instant dismissal would be no surprise.

Mrs OBumble

Agreed. But the sh*t needs to hit the fan.

I don't for one minute believe that the employer hasn't already noticed that the 8k is missing. There is most likely some sort of investigation started already.

The only real option for the OP's "friend" is to come clean, ASAP.

_Brian

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Agreed. But the sh*t needs to hit the fan.

I don't for one minute believe that the employer hasn't already noticed that the 8k is missing. There is most likely some sort of investigation started already.

The only real option for the OP's "friend" is to come clean, ASAP.

Agreed..
The focus here needs to be coming clean and trying to avoid a prosecution, the fact that this was hidden for sooo long will raise suspicions about theft, I presume it hasnt been reported to the Guards??

Go to the employer before its too late, every day increases the risk of a knock on the door by the Guards.

Mrs OBumble

OP, if you think they're at risk of harming themselves, read here for info: http://www.yourmentalhealth.ie/mind-yourself/concerned/worried-about-someone/

Walter2016

100% be straight up.

Yes there will be annoyance by the bosses, but at the same time they are putting the employee at risk by having them do large lodgements.

The company will also be insured for 5k.


Once she's genuine, she'll have nothing to worry about.

Its also not a garda matter so they won't be involved or interested unless the employer can show criminal issue.


I reckon she'll be surprised at how its dealt with.

Walter2016

Dingledangle wrote: »

I think that is the best thing. They are so good to help everyone else, I just feel they deserve the same help back. I have told them (don't know if I am right or not) that they will probably lose their job, and have to pay the money back, but they are so worried that they haven' t the money to pay back, that the employer will prosecute. I am not sure on the legalities of it all, which is why I said they be best to talk to a solicitor friend before they talk to the employer. Please help, as I really don't know much about this sort of thing.

If they are there over a year, proper disciplinary procedure must take place before job is lost and I simply cannot see how it could happen unless lodging money is in his/her job description and the company gives him/ her the time and procedures to do the lodgement and that she did not follow those rules.

But if it was an adhoc arrangement and no set procedures were in place, then it would be very difficult to dismiss the person as the company has fault too.

peteb2

Walter2016 wrote:

The company will also be insured for 5k.

No they won't. Only covered for loss by theft. Not unexplained shortage.

CruelCoin

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I don't for one minute believe that the employer hasn't already noticed that the 8k is missing. There is most likely some sort of investigation started already.

I'm astonished that it's been 6 weeks and the employer hasn't said anything yet.

If our deposit didn't come into the bank account, i'd notice it 2 days later. 6 weeks? :rolleyes:

I don't think we're getting the whole truth here.

CruelCoin

seamus wrote: »

It is the very first thing they should have done. Misplacing the money is their error, but their employer's problem. They do not have an obligation to repay the money, as it was lost in the course of their duties.

That's terrible advice to give.

By that logic it would be fine to just lob the money in the air and say "sod it, i'm on the clock boyeeee"
Besides, lost in the course of their duties, doesn't really cover a tea-break with the parents or picking up hitchhikers....I'd imagine it means going straight to and from the bank.

I don't buy that the staff isn't responsible for this kind of thing.
If staff can be docked for damaging goods (and they can be), then this is no different.

Walter2016

peteb2 wrote: »

No they won't. Only covered for loss by theft. Not unexplained shortage.

I stand corrected - yes, it would need to have been stolen in transit rather than lost.

Shelflife

Need to strip back the whole senario here. Their personal circumstances are by and large irrelevant to the main issue. Employee is given €8000 to lodge, employee should go directly to the bank and lodge the cash. Employee doesnt do this and instead gives lifts to hitchers (who hitches a lift this day and age and who picks up random strangers when you have €8k in the car) and calls into their parents when they should be working.

The employee has failed in their duty to carry out the task and has breached procedure in doing so which will more than likely invalidate any insurance policy.

I would say that if I gave an employee €8000 to lodge and that it failed to end up in my account I would be looking to be reimbursed for that €8k.

The fact that they havent come forward and admitted it to their employer will weigh heavily against them, based on the senario outlined by the OP I would be very suspicious as to what happened the money and why it wasnt immediately reported.

The OPs friend needs to get some advice and come clean with their employer asap.

exaisle

It's unlikely to be 8k in cash and unless the employee's contract includes transport of large sums of cash then the employer has no business in asking the employee to do so.
Second point is that if there were cheques in the lodgement it's likely that they can be replaced so prompt action is necessary.

Utdfan20titles

How do u kno he didnt pocket the money?

2RockMountain

Shelflife wrote: »

Need to strip back the whole senario here. Their personal circumstances are by and large irrelevant to the main issue. Employee is given €8000 to lodge, employee should go directly to the bank and lodge the cash. Employee doesnt do this and instead gives lifts to hitchers (who hitches a lift this day and age and who picks up random strangers when you have €8k in the car) and calls into their parents when they should be working.

You seem to be making a lot of assumptions here. First of all, hitching is still a way of life in many rural towns. Both parties may well know each other, so it is not usually a case of total strangers - but it still goes on.

You also assume that the employee 'should be working' on this journey, which assumes that they are being paid to make the lodgement. I wouldn't assume this at all. It may well be a loose arrangement to 'drop that into the bank when you're passing' with no payment for the time spent travelling or queueing in the bank. Check out the facts before you rush to judgement.

OP - Please clarify if your friend is paid for this journey? Is he 'on the clock' while travelling? Is he paid mileage? Is he insured to carry goods for his employer in the car?

shaunr68

Presumably the OP's friend has gone to great lengths in trying to track down the money, retracing their steps, thoroughly checking the car, the parents house and so on?

The only time I have been in a vaguely similar situation carrying a lot of cash was with £17K sterling to buy a motorhome. Granted this was my own cash and not my employer's but I was acutely aware of where the money was at every second! I had to get the train to the dealer, cash was stuffed in a bum bag, kept on the inside of my trousers, safety pins on the zip and the package was cable tied to my belt loop for good measure! As if that wasn't enough I spent the entire journey s**tting myself, constantly checking it was still there.

I can't see how anybody could be so lax with a large quantity of cash as to misplace it and have no idea where or how it came to be lost. Crazy to be picking up strangers in these circumstances too. I'm genuinely not trying to be unsympathetic but am utterly perplexed as to how this has happened. Surely they must have an inkling of how the money went missing? The employer needs to know that the friend has gone to great lengths to try and recover the cash. If there is any possibility that the events can be explained by health issues causing confusion or carelessness then I'd be getting medical advice to back this up immediately.

Good luck

davo10

Walter2016 wrote: »

If they are there over a year, proper disciplinary procedure must take place before job is lost and I simply cannot see how it could happen unless lodging money is in his/her job description and the company gives him/ her the time and procedures to do the lodgement and that she did not follow those rules.

But if it was an adhoc arrangement and no set procedures were in place, then it would be very difficult to dismiss the person as the company has fault too.

Theft is considered gross misconduct and therefore grounds for summary dismissal. While we can only accept the op's word that the money was mislaid, not reporting for 6 weeks does not look at all good. The op has to tell the employer before the employer realises it was not lodged, then it will be too late, it will be a Garda matter then.

livedadream

At the risk of being a dick your friend is in serious trouble
8 grand missing is not going to go unnoticed and the fact the
1. He admitted to stopping into his parents for chat while doing the lodgement
2. Picking up people thumbers
3. Hiding it for so long
4. Putting it back a bit at a time actually makes it worst to me, why hide it why not ring straight away and admit it why cover it up.
The first two things are going to be considered gross misconduct and at best he can hope his boss doesn't call the Gards get them to own up asap and offer them as much support you can.

BorneTobyWilde

The fact that employer actually trusts this person to lodge 8k says a lot to begin with. There must be total trust there. Should of reported it as soon as it was noticed it was missing.

Avatar MIA

Stolen by a hitchhiker on the way to the bank? Really?!?

Right, I'd recommend reporting it to the employer. It depends on their book keeping, but I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't realise it was missing yet - depends on the systems/business.

If it were me and I found myself in the current situation I would report it to the owner and say I will continue to pay it back (preferably from Gross wages, rather than net wages). If they are there over a year I think there would be a good chance of keeping their job.

And if they ever have responsibility of lodging money again go straight to the bank (I presume they are getting mileage driving 8 miles to the bank, and if not I don't believe the story) and don't pick up any strangers!

Avatar MIA

Dingledangle wrote: »

it is more of checking on them, as they are both in their old age, and one of them has a serious illness. The house is on their way to the bank but not on their way home.

The bold bit is totally irrelevant. How do their parents manage the other 9 hours they are in work.

BTW, if they travel to the bank it's during work hours anyway - why are they getting paid for 15 minutes during the work day?

And they should be getting mileage for 8 miles not the most likely far less (after tax) 15 minutes.

Avatar MIA

Dingledangle wrote: »

Anyone who is qualified and has the legal knowledge on this it would be greatly appreciated.

As will be your fee when you your friend meets with a legal professional.

Stheno

Dingledangle wrote: »

Anyone who is qualified and has the legal knowledge on this it would be greatly appreciated.

We are not allowed give legal advice here on boards

RossieMan

You can't get legal advice here.

Stheno

Dingledangle wrote: »

I would like to say that I am grateful for most of the advice people have posted up, thank you. I will keep you updated as to the outcome of it all, and hopefully this matter will be resolved one way or another. I will keep an eye on the boards in case anyone else has anything more constructive to add.

To be honest there isn't much to add to the advice you've gotten

livedadream

Either way if I trusted an employee wth 8000 of cash from my business and found out they were stopping ANYWHERE on the way to the bank it would be considered a huge risk and gross misconduct it's common sense do the job then check on your parents.

RossieMan

What do you expect from this? Nobody is going to be able to tell you the position other than a solicitor.

Look at the fact, your friends has hid that they'll misplaced 8k for 6 weeks. It's not going to look good, no matter what spin you put on it.

Walter2016

Avatar MIA wrote: »

BTW, if they travel to the bank it's during work hours anyway - why are they getting paid for 15 minutes during the work day?
.

Night safe or AIB banking lobby (open 8am to 9pm) would be out of hours.

But definitely the person needs to simply sit down with management and tell them what has happened.

Once there's no criminality and the op's info is correct then the worst case scenario is to pay it back.

Again. Once its genuine and employee is there over a year, it would be difficult for dismissal unless there was a written / agreed procedure in place that was not followed.

Whilst I don't have legal knowledge, I do manage a business and I do have staff doing lodgements, but we have a set procedure and a max lodgement of 5k and if such an issue arose, we'd investigate and look at ways of amends such as unpaid hours or similar.

Dial Hard

Dingledangle wrote:

This is true. Just trying to stand by a person, I think of as genuine and kind, there's nothing wrong with that is there.

No, but you can't ask for advice from completely neutral strangers on the internet and then get your knickers in a twist when they question your friend's judgement.

Avatar MIA

Walter2016 wrote: »

Night safe or AIB banking lobby (open 8am to 9pm) would be out of hours.

I was wondering if the OP would mention that.

Stheno

Dingledangle wrote: »

I don't know the in's and out's of night safe. I wouldn't imagine it is safe for the person doing it on their own, is it?

Was your friend lodging to a night safe?

Avatar MIA

Dingledangle wrote: »

I don't know the in's and out's of night safe. I wouldn't imagine it is safe for the person doing it on their own, is it?

Your friend accepted the responsibility of making the lodgement and getting 15 minutes extra pay, so I don't think a defence of 'it's your fault I lost the money... because it's unsafe to let me do it on my own'

If you only take one piece of advice away from this discussion is that it's best not to blame the manager for this loss.

For future lodgements that might be something worth mentioning. However, who'd trust this person with €8k again. And by trust I mean having common sense.

Stheno

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Your friend accepted the responsibility of making the lodgement and getting 15 minutes extra pay, so I don't think a defence of 'it's your fault I lost the money... because it's unsafe to let me do it on my own'

If you only take one piece of advice away from this discussion is that it's best not to blame the manager for this loss.

For future lodgements that might be something worth mentioning. However, who'd trust this person with €8k again. And by trust I mean having common sense.

The far greater issue to me is not advising the owner of the loss for six weeks

livedadream

Stheno wrote: »

The far greater issue to me is not advising the owner of the loss for six weeks

not that fact that he lets randomers into his car while the cash is present and on working time or calling into his mammys for tea?

seems a bit movie in the making to me...

who even picks up hitchhikers these days anyway...

Avatar MIA

Stheno wrote: »

The far greater issue to me is not advising the owner of the loss for six weeks

Agreed. However, I can understand how someone could be petrified at the thought of losing €8k and not act rationally.

As has been mentioned above, it's not likely to be all cash, and if cheques the greater the delay the greater the risk of not getting a replacement cheque from the customer.

Avatar MIA

Dingledangle wrote: »

I don't think they did in the week as they only work a few hours, but I presume they would have to Saturdays and Sundays, as I remember them saying they didn't like doing it. But they would sometimes be finished too early and banks not open so would wait until the bank opened. I'm really not sure, I would just be guessing on what I can remember them ever saying previously.

Do you mean her bank closes for lunch?

In that case, in future, her shift should not end where she needs to leave work and the bank she needs to travel to is not open. That's for the future though.

2RockMountain

livedadream wrote: »

Either way if I trusted an employee wth 8000 of cash from my business and found out they were stopping ANYWHERE on the way to the bank it would be considered a huge risk and gross misconduct it's common sense do the job then check on your parents.

It would very difficult to claim 'gross misconduct' if you hadn't set out clear, written procedures for the employee beforehand, such as 'no stopping, no passengers'. The employer isn't giving the employer a great gift or benefit in 'trusting him with €8k' - the employer is getting someone to do a messy and potentially dangerous bit of work for 15 minutes pay - probably less than a fiver.

Avatar MIA wrote: »

The bold bit is totally irrelevant. How do their parents manage the other 9 hours they are in work.

BTW, if they travel to the bank it's during work hours anyway - why are they getting paid for 15 minutes during the work day?

And they should be getting mileage for 8 miles not the most likely far less (after tax) 15 minutes.

The employee isn't fiddling the employer by stopping off at their parents. He gets 15 minutes paid time, whether he takes 10 minutes or 2 hours to do the bank run. From a time point of view, it is none of the employer's business where the employee goes or how long the journey takes. There is a security issue here, but if the employer didn't make a rule of 'no stops', it would be very hard for them to make a big deal of this now.

Avatar MIA

2RockMountain wrote: »

The employee isn't fiddling the employer by stopping off at their parents. He gets 15 minutes paid time, whether he takes 10 minutes or 2 hours to do the bank run. From a time point of view, it is none of the employer's business where the employee goes or how long the journey takes. There is a security issue here, but if the employer didn't make a rule of 'no stops', it would be very hard for them to make a big deal of this now.

I'm pretty sure it's an implied contract that when the employer says, 'Here's €8k, take it to the bank.' it's beholden on the employee not to lose said €8k. If they then lost it by doing silly things, then it's the employees fault. A protocol cannot cover every scenario. For example, should the protocol instruct, 'The employee must not juggle the bundles of cash as they walk to the bank.' Picking up a hitchhiker falls into the same commonsense requirement.

livedadream

2RockMountain wrote: »

It would very difficult to claim 'gross misconduct' if you hadn't set out clear, written procedures for the employee beforehand, such as 'no stopping, no passengers'. The employer isn't giving the employer a great gift or benefit in 'trusting him with €8k' - the employer is getting someone to do a messy and potentially dangerous bit of work for 15 minutes pay - probably less than a fiver.

to be fair im not talking about getting paid im talking about the lack of common sense someone would have to have to stop off somewhere with that amount of cash on them or pick up randomers that are hitching a lift. and guidelines or not there is an expectation of certain things in employment not everything has to be written down, and again to be fair i think being sacked is the lest of this guys problems...


its pretty easy for the employers to say well jesus i dont have it in your contract that you need to wipe your arse are going to the toilet either its just assumed you will use common sense, the same with lodging money that doesnt belong to you.

Carlos Orange

2RockMountain wrote: »

It would very difficult to claim 'gross misconduct' if you hadn't set out clear, written procedures for the employee beforehand, such as 'no stopping, no passengers'.

As a human I would consider losing 8K of employer cash gross misconduct. As a matter of law I don't have a clue. I did hear of someone loosing a couple of thousand in cash before and nothing happened to that employee because there were a couple of lawyers on the company board and they were reluctant to get rid of the person. Reading some cases below the law probably doesn't line it too well with my personal beliefs.

http://insighthr.ie/discipline-process-for-gross-misconduct/

anewme

But has the person any idea what really happened to the cash? Did they definitely pick up a hitch hiker on the way to the bank that day. Even so, if the person was in the car at the same time as the Hitch hiker.....did they not see the hitch hiker take something from the car? Surely they did not leave a random stranger alone with 8k sitting there? Was it in an envelope?

This might seem a lot of questions but you can't just lose8k.

I've worked in big businesses and small businesses and in a small business it was often all hands on deck so it could be a case of.....will someone take the bank lodgement? Granted, it was more cheques than cash, but nobody ever lost anything. What I'm saying, is that the processes and procedures that are HR originated in a big business are not always as well documented in a small business. Smaller business is more likely to be badly hit though by this loss.

I'd be livid if someone "lost" 8k. I can understand the person panicking but the money has to be somewhere or else it was stolen while in the persons remit. They actually had a duty to report it to the Gardai.

I know it's your friend op and you can vouch for them especially if you've said they have had their own share of problems, but to an outsider, this story would appear to have more holes than a Swiss cheese, and they should prepare thenselves for those type of questions. Legal advice before meeting the employer.

zoe 3619

No real advice to offer,but this must be incredibly stressful for your friend.
The longer it goes on for,the more difficult it will become.Whatever the consequences turn out to be,telling the boss would probably be a huge relief. It would take the uncertainty from the situation,and anything that needs to be done (such as cancelling cheques or reporting random hitch-hikers to the guards) is better done sooner rather than later.
Losing the money may have been careless,but keeping quiet for so long has compounded the situation hugely.

BorneTobyWilde

Was it you who lost it OP.

2RockMountain

Avatar MIA wrote: »

I'm pretty sure it's an implied contract that when the employer says, 'Here's €8k, take it to the bank.' it's beholden on the employee not to lose said €8k. If they then lost it by doing silly things, then it's the employees fault. A protocol cannot cover every scenario. For example, should the protocol instruct, 'The employee must not juggle the bundles of cash as they walk to the bank.' Picking up a hitchhiker falls into the same commonsense requirement.

livedadream wrote: »

to be fair im not talking about getting paid im talking about the lack of common sense someone would have to have to stop off somewhere with that amount of cash on them or pick up randomers that are hitching a lift. and guidelines or not there is an expectation of certain things in employment not everything has to be written down, and again to be fair i think being sacked is the lest of this guys problems...


its pretty easy for the employers to say well jesus i dont have it in your contract that you need to wipe your arse are going to the toilet either its just assumed you will use common sense, the same with lodging money that doesnt belong to you.

I see yisser points, and there is some truth in them, but it's not a black and white issue either.

There are people who have no real concept of larger amounts of money. Anything beyond the few hundred quid they get in their hand each week has no real meaning for them. It is possible that this person has no real concept of what €8k means, and how it is different in buying power from €800 or €80k or €800k. That may explain why things that seem obvious to you and me (no stops, no hitchers) were not obvious at all to the employee.

This is why if an employer is getting an employee to do a job like this, they should have clear instructions about how to do it. It is possible that the employee is invalidating their car insurance by carrying this money, so the employer shouldn't slip into this kind of task without thinking it through..

Dial Hard

2RockMountain wrote:

There are people who have no real concept of larger amounts of money. Anything beyond the few hundred quid they get in their hand each week has no real meaning for them. It is possible that this person has no real concept of what €8k means, and how it is different in buying power from €800 or €80k or €800k. That may explain why things that seem obvious to you and me (no stops, no hitchers) were not obvious at all to the employee.

Ah here. The only people I can think of having no concept of what 8k is worth are the super-rich and I think it's safe to assume the OP's mate doesn't fall into that category.

Walter2016

Dial Hard wrote: »

Ah here. The only people I can think of having no concept of what 8k is worth are the super-rich and I think it's safe to assume the OP's mate doesn't fall into that category.

The funny thing is that cash in the course of a business has no "meaning" to many - after a while you don't see the real value in it as it is just a commodity used in a transaction.

In the business I'm in we'll handle over €1m in December, we'll count it, we'll bag it and it will get collected by seneca.

At the end of dec, I'll get about 4k in wages - that 4k to me is a far bigger amount than the €1m that will pass my eyes in the course of work.

So, in a way 8k in a business sense may not seem a large amount - that is until you lose it.


But still, best advice is to be straight up. No matter what it will be noticed at some stage.

_Brian

There is no other way to look at this other than gross misconduct..

IMO this "friend" is looking at dismissal, and an uncomfortable chat with the guards. TBH I don't believe the whole hitchhiker story, its just madness, very convenient that its so untraceable. If I were the employer I'd be viewing this as a likely theft.

Blatter

The hitchhiker story is only believable from the point of view that it's hard to believe somebody could be stupid enough to make up something so far-fetched and unbelievable as an explanation for €8k going missing. It'd be much easier to claim that you left the car unattended and unlocked for a period whilst the money was inside.