open up churches for homeless people?

Andy From Sligo

wasnt sure whether to post this in religion or what but even though its not lighthearted subject I thought i would post it in AH so here goes.

I am presuming churches in towns and cities close/lock their doors 'out of hours' correct?

Why dont they leave their church doors open for the homeless this winter? - surely better for a church to be dryer and more sheltered than a shop doorway or park bench? - and maybe the church/church goers can supply sleeping bags and the homeless people sleep on the benches in the church - the church is (or should be) a compassionate organisation should it not , so wondering if they dont already, why dont they offer accommodation to homeless people to get their head down for the night?

Silly idea?

stanley1989

I was homeless for months in sligo and letterkenny Took any help i could get and was very thankful but unfortunately theres always a small number of homeless who abuse anyone who trys to help them by stealing etc

ScumLord

I'd say the problems would come from insurance companies, they like their cut of the action and if there's no action they won't let you do squat.

The first problem may be that the churches public liability (if it has such a thing) may not cover letting people sleep in the church. The church would be accepting a duty of care over anyone it let in.

Once they start drinking, doing drugs and stinking up the place the regular church goers would want them out.

Over all a church isn't a suitable place to be letting people sleep. It will protect people from wind and rain but that would be about it.

Maximus Alexander

You should probably go and suggest it to your parish priest. I'm sure he'd be able to advise you as to whether it's feasible, or explain to you why not.

Badly Drunk Boy

Yeah, silly idea.

Why don't we open up schools too? And shopping centres. And offices. There are loads of buildings that aren't used at night. What harm could they do? Are all of the rooms in your house being fully utilised? Ask the homeless to drop in!

Potatoeman

Why not lead by example and open up your own house?

Andy From Sligo

Potatoeman wrote: »

Why not lead by example and open up your own house?

well i - rent so i dont think my LL would agree, i would end up with being chucked out onto the streets - but nice thought/way of thinking

... oh and I dont live in the town/city either where you will find most of the people sleeping rough ...

Galwayguy35

The Capuchin Friars help out the homeless, there was a programme about it a while back.

Ted111

What about Andy's house for them?

Galwayguy35

There's also a lot of valuable stuff in churches, wouldn't be a hard job to throw the priest to the floor and make off with it.

stimpson

I think the homeless suffer enough TBH.

Andy From Sligo

Ted111 wrote:

What about Andy's house for them?

Look at post #7

Andy From Sligo

Galwayguy35 wrote:

There's also a lot of valuable stuff in churches, wouldn't be a hard job to throw the priest to the floor and make off with it.

Lock it away at night?

Andy From Sligo

stimpson wrote:

I think the homeless suffer enough TBH.

There could be a few converts and born again Christians to be had?

pgj2015

why dont they offer accommodation to homeless people to get their head down for the night?


Because the churches would end up like this


https://www.google.ie/search?q=crack+house&rlz=1C1DSGQ_enIE519IE519&espv=2&biw=1366&bih=662&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiOkcnn0cHPAhVDKcAKHax-DbEQ_AUIBigB#imgrc=yCi5zlJBCLkqHM%3A

The_Valeyard

pgj2015 wrote: »

why dont they offer accommodation to homeless people to get their head down for the night?


Because the churches would end up like this


https://www.google.ie/search?q=crack+house&rlz=1C1DSGQ_enIE519IE519&espv=2&biw=1366&bih=662&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiOkcnn0cHPAhVDKcAKHax-DbEQ_AUIBigB#imgrc=yCi5zlJBCLkqHM%3A

I thought you were going to show that opening scene from Fear The Walking Dead.

Speedwell

I've thought about it. I've considered the couple or three old ladies rattling around in the local convent built for many more, and thought how maybe the church should arrange decent apartments for them right next to the town square, appropriate for the needs of the elderly, and use the convent building itself for humanitarian purposes. I've wondered why the church hasn't bought many of the vacant properties around here to use for refugees (there is an apartment building in Ballisodare that I pass often and the sight of the mistreated building makes me sick).

But then I realise that the Church can't be trusted to provide clean, modern, decent, and appropriate housing and services. Church officials would claim to be exempt from sensible laws passed to protect the vulnerable and to ensure that everyone has equal access to services free from discrimination and exploitation. They'd make attendance at religious services a condition of receiving help. Even Mother Theresa thought it was holy and desirable for people to be in pain and suffering. Compassionate organisations? Not so much.

The only way you could make this work would be to condemn the Church buildings and turn them into accommodation. This has been done already with at least one large convent that I know of as a shelter for asylum seekers. Even then it's far from optimal... can you imagine what would happen if you left it up to the tender mercies of the Church?

Ted111

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Look at post #7

And will the church have to get public liability insurance?

RayM

pgj2015 wrote: »

why dont they offer accommodation to homeless people to get their head down for the night?


Because the churches would end up like this


https://www.google.ie/search?q=crack+house&rlz=1C1DSGQ_enIE519IE519&espv=2&biw=1366&bih=662&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiOkcnn0cHPAhVDKcAKHax-DbEQ_AUIBigB#imgrc=yCi5zlJBCLkqHM%3A

Mass would be interesting anyway.

I think, rather than opening up churches, it would be nice if more of the clergy were actual Christians like Fr. Peter McVerry or Br. Kevin Crowley.

riffmongous

Most Churches actually are being closed earlier and earlier instead nowadays, usually as soon as it gets dark. It's just not worth having them open because of troublemakers and kids going in, not too mention it can be dangerous for older people or women in the dark

The_Valeyard

Speedwell wrote: »

I've thought about it. I've considered the couple or three old ladies rattling around in the local convent built for many more, and thought how maybe the church should arrange decent apartments for them right next to the town square, appropriate for the needs of the elderly, and use the convent building itself for humanitarian purposes. I've wondered why the church hasn't bought many of the vacant properties around here to use for refugees (there is an apartment building in Ballisodare that I pass often and the sight of the mistreated building makes me sick).

But then I realise that the Church can't be trusted to provide clean, modern, decent, and appropriate housing and services. Church officials would claim to be exempt from sensible laws passed to protect the vulnerable and to ensure that everyone has equal access to services free from discrimination and exploitation. They'd make attendance at religious services a condition of receiving help. Even Mother Theresa thought it was holy and desirable for people to be in pain and suffering. Compassionate organisations? Not so much.

The only way you could make this work would be to condemn the Church buildings and turn them into accommodation. This has been done already with at least one large convent that I know of as a shelter for asylum seekers. Even then it's far from optimal... can you imagine what would happen if you left it up to the tender mercies of the Church?

Must resist urge to post picture of raving Mrs Lovejoy....

Speedwell

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Must resist urge to post picture of raving Mrs Lovejoy....

Why's that?

stimpson

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

There could be a few converts and born again Christians to be had?

That's how they drum up business in the Third World.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

well i - rent so i dont think my LL would agree, i would end up with being chucked out onto the streets - but nice thought/way of thinking

... oh and I dont live in the town/city either where you will find most of the people sleeping rough ...

I'm sure they wouldn't mind travelling out for some country air if they had a nice warm bed and a good dinner. You should set an example for us all.

Estrellita

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

wasnt sure whether to post this in religion or what but even though its not lighthearted subject I thought i would post it in AH so here goes.

I am presuming churches in towns and cities close/lock their doors 'out of hours' correct?

Why dont they leave their church doors open for the homeless this winter? - surely better for a church to be dryer and more sheltered than a shop doorway or park bench? - and maybe the church/church goers can supply sleeping bags and the homeless people sleep on the benches in the church - the church is (or should be) a compassionate organisation should it not , so wondering if they dont already, why dont they offer accommodation to homeless people to get their head down for the night?

Silly idea?

It's not a silly idea, because at least you are trying to consider ways of tackling homelessness.

I think the idea wouldn't come to much, unfortunately. I don't mean to generalise, but sadly with homelessness comes with anti-social behaviour and other problems. The whole place would need to be cleared out at night to avoid damage to the pews, the paintings and statues etc.. that isn't feasible.

These weren't homeless people, but our church nearby had to stop doing a late mass because people were coming in drunk apparently. But you can see what I'm getting at.

If any trouble kicks off the church have no way of dealing with it. So, if anything it's more designated centres that is needed.

Andy From Sligo

Ted111 wrote: »

And will the church have to get public liability insurance?

more than likely - you would wonder how insurance works in shop doorways, ...but then again i suppose the shop's PLI covers it

Andy From Sligo

LexieOnRale wrote: »

I'm sure they wouldn't mind travelling out for some country air if they had a nice warm bed and a good dinner. You should set an example for us all.

it dont seem to be sinking in that i'm renting property, and that my LL would not take to 'strangers' residing in the house ...

Ted111

A lot of homeless people are living in hotels or temporary accommodation (which is completely wrong) so they don't need literally a roof(steeple) over their head.

For those living rough in the main have addiction issues, personality disorders or psychiatric problems. They need more than just physical housing. They need society to help them and treat them. And physical buildings is (small) part of that. That should all be provided by the state. Which is to say all of us.

If a church was used to house vagrants and homeless it wouldn't be fit to hold its ceremonies in. And as much as people despise them they are hardly going to shut down what they perceive to be their raison d'etre.

Ted111

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

more than likely - you would wonder how insurance works in shop doorways, ...but then again i suppose the shop's PLI covers it

A shop owner has no control over who sleeps in his doorway or on the pavement outside his premises and is not liable to any injury to them. If someone opens a public building to allow people to sleep in then if they a court deems they have not taken all reasonable efforts to prevent injury or harm then they will be liable to compensating someone injured therein.

Speedwell

Ted111 wrote: »

If a church was used to house vagrants and homeless it wouldn't be fit to hold its ceremonies in. And as much as people despise them they are hardly going to shut down what they perceive to be their raison d'etre.

It occurs to me that the Church's reason for being is to serve others, and that a church that failed in this respect would, as you say, be unfit to hold ceremonies in.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

it dont seem to be sinking in that i'm renting property, and that my LL would not take to 'strangers' residing in the house ...

A bit off topic but is this true? I would have thought if you're renting you can let anyone at all stay with you as long as the rent is being paid. Does the right to quiet enjoyment cover the guests in the house?

Andy From Sligo

Ted111 wrote: »

A shop owner has no control over who sleeps in his doorway or on the pavement outside his premises and is not liable to any injury to them. ...

interesting that, are you saying a shop doorway is not covered by the shop's public liability insurance? so if I tripped up on a step in the shop doorway or cut myself on a shop's door handle or glass in the door ... who's liable?

Ted111

Speedwell wrote: »

It occurs to me that the Church's reason for being is to serve others, and that a church that failed in this respect would, as you say, be unfit to hold ceremonies in.

It's primarily ritualistic and ceremonial rather than Christian or spiritual. They see their ceremonies as more important. That's their internal logic. Don't drag me into it. I just seek to accurately understand the world around me. It can't all be as perfect as me.

bodhrandude

Well seeing that Sligo County Council closed down the only library in the town centre, surely they could use that for housing the homeless anyway.

Andy From Sligo

LexieOnRale wrote: »

A bit off topic but is this true? I would have thought if you're renting you can let anyone at all stay with you as long as the rent is being paid. Does the right to quiet enjoyment cover the guests in the house?

well you imagine me either 'letting' out a room or giving it out free.... its not my house, i wouldnt have the say so ... if I did own the house its a different matter innit. Plus and damages or whatever caused by third party I would have to put it right - and who knows I could go out one day and leave them there and they could change locks and claim 'squatters rights'

Ted111

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

interesting that, are you saying a shop doorway is not covered by the shop's public liability insurance? so if I tripped up on a step in the shop doorway or cut myself on a shop's door handle or glass in the door ... who's liable?

If you trip on the step of a shop or anywhere for that matter you won't be suing anybody. If you cut yourself on a door handle I'll be impressed but again you won't be suing anybody. How would you cut yourself on a glass paine in the door ?

Estrellita

LexieOnRale wrote: »

A bit off topic but is this true? I would have thought if you're renting you can let anyone at all stay with you as long as the rent is being paid. Does the right to quiet enjoyment cover the guests in the house?

Why don't you open up your place to the homeless instead of ignoring what Andy said? he can't due to his tenency agreement.

When your place gets smashed up and you can't get your deposit back or a reference for another place, perhaps you will get the general idea as to why this is a bad idea.


The guy starts a thread with an idea on how to tackle homelessness, and with the odd sensible answer regarding the insurance problems with the plan - he's had several wanna be smart @rses suggest his own place then ignore his responses. Then others want to push their anti-religon venom.

I guess once it doesn't effect you then it isn't a problem.

Speedwell

Estrellita wrote: »

Then others want to push their anti-religon venom.

The correct anti-venom is to not deserve the criticism in the first place.

Estrellita

Speedwell wrote: »

The correct anti-venom is to not deserve the criticism in the first place.

If you can tell me how a religious debate is going to help the homelessness issue, I'm all ears.

Speedwell

Estrellita wrote: »

If you can tell me how a religious debate is going to help the homelessness issue, I'm all ears.

(points to the thread topic) It's about churches. If you want to try to throw flack in an effort to deflect the issue from the Church's shortcomings in taking care of the poor, that's on your head.

Senna

Of all the buildings in any town or city, a church is probably the worst building to house people over night, they aren't exactly warm at the best of times.

Homeless people who sleep rough for an extended time have more issues than just not being able to find a roof to sleep under.

Estrellita

Speedwell wrote: »

(points to the thread topic) It's about churches. If you want to try to throw flack in an effort to deflect the issue from the Church's shortcomings in taking care of the poor, that's on your head.

For fcuk sake. Wait till I see if my little nephew has time to answer you, the stupidity of that post requires a simpler mind.

I'm out.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Estrellita wrote: »

Why don't you open up your place to the homeless instead of ignoring what Andy said? he can't due to his tenency agreement.

When your place gets smashed up and you can't get your deposit back or a reference for another place, perhaps you will get the general idea as to why this is a bad idea.


The guy starts a thread with an idea on how to tackle homelessness, and with the odd sensible answer regarding the insurance problems with the plan - he's had several wanna be smart @rses suggest his own place then ignore his responses. Then others want to push their anti-religon venom.

I guess once it doesn't effect you then it isn't a problem.

So why is one persons property okay to vandalise? I wouldn't let anyone into my home. But if you're calling for others to tackle the problem at their expense, why not yourself?

The_Valeyard

Speedwell wrote: »

Why's that?

Because your post sounded hysterical.

Ted111

Speedwell wrote: »

(points to the thread topic) It's about churches. If you want to try to throw flack in an effort to deflect the issue from the Church's shortcomings in taking care of the poor, that's on your head.

I think you have a point about the hypocrisy of it. But I suspect, and I do not know this for sure, there may be some good, humanitarian people with any of the organized churches. They may be do a lot of work quietly and without looking for plaudits. But you wouldn't expect as institutions that they would open all there churches as homeless hostels. And as I've said there is a legal aspect to it. The minute they do that they have a duty of care to the people coming in. They must make all reasonable efforts to make the buildings safe. To prevent one vagrant from hurting another -security. Provide water. Toilets. Children coming in, are they getting bedding, privacy, food or water.

I want my taxes to pay for the care of homeless and marginalised people. Shouldn't be passing the buck to anyone else. The RCC should be involved in less aspects of irish life eg schools and not more.

Speedwell

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Because your post sounded hysterical.

Hmm, I reread it and I honestly don't see what you're on about.

stimpson

Estrellita wrote: »

If you can tell me how a religious debate is going to help the homelessness issue, I'm all ears.

How about the pope sells off the churches riches and gives the money to the poor?

The_Valeyard

Speedwell wrote: »

Hmm, I reread it and I honestly don't see what you're on about.

That's your opinion. Enjoy your evening.

Speedwell

Ted111 wrote: »

I think you have a point about the hypocrisy of it. But I suspect, and I do not know this for sure, there may be some good, humanitarian people with any of the organized churches. They may be do a lot of work quietly and without looking for plaudits. But you wouldn't expect as institutions that they would open all there churches as homeless hostels. And as I've said there is a legal aspect to it. The minute they do that they have a duty of care to the people coming in. They must make all reasonable efforts to make the buildings safe. To prevent one vagrant from hurting another -security. Provide water. Toilets. Children coming in, are they getting bedding, privacy, food or water.

I want my taxes to pay for the care of homeless and marginalised people. Shouldn't be passing the buck to anyone else. The RCC should be involved in less aspects of irish life eg schools and not more.

That's a good point about whether the church should be involved in something that we have a government to take care of. I would also prefer the church not make themselves indispensable by taking on tasks that the secular public would have to spend their tax money reimbursing them for.

FizzleSticks

This post has been deleted.

Speedwell

The_Valeyard wrote: »

That's your opinion. Enjoy your evening.

Just fyi, disagreeing with you while in possession of a vagina does not constitute "hysteria". It's a matter I've thought about for a long time and come to some conclusions that matter to me, and you're tossing off a few comments to relieve boredom, I take it. Feel free to treat the subject with the same seriousness as I have.