Claire Byrne Live debate on cycling deaths

learn_more

Sad interview with the farther of a girl who died in Dublin city center. She cycled to work because she couldn't afford parking. The farther thinks the infrastructure is a mess.

I cycled in Dublin for few years; both incidents I was involved in was due to bad driving. So who knows what the answer is. I don't.

Not sure if deaths can ever be irradiated. It hasn't been achieved with motorists, either car drivers or motorcyclists. Pedestrians too.

hytrogen

It's everyone's fault the city is a mess, **sweeping generalised statement alert**
Everyone has a bad attitude, everyone from cyclists, taxi drivers, pedestrians, buses, all drivers, have just this terribly negative attitude when any form of conflict or near miss happens.
Would training & education be enough? Probably not since noone listens anymore..
Do fines work as a deterrent? Parking is a fine so no.
So what's the answer?
I reckon everyone needs to chill the fudge cake out! I challenge everyone tomorrow if you get in a near miss or conflict to take a breath, laugh at yourself and then apologise and move on..

learn_more

Well the show didn't turn out to be a debate in the end, was just a short piece on it, which was a bit pointless.

odyssey06

If something is everyone's fault, it is no one's fault. That attitude will get precisely nothing done!
It tends to be trotted out often by the very people who are at fault, as a way of displacing blame (maybe not in hytrogen's case but I've seen it used now far too often by politicians who are in fact culpable).
Someone is to blame. Either bad road users or bad road planners; with an assist from bad enforcement.

beauf

Lack of enforcement...

Wishbone Ash

hytrogen wrote: »

...Do fines work as a deterrent? Parking is a fine so no...

Well the introduction of clamping certainly made a huge difference to illegal parking in Dublin City center.

beauf

Clamping is not done by the garda, in the main. Hence its enforced.

Cycle fines and general poor driving isn't in the main. The cycle rate was reported as 3 or 4 fines a day. Dunno about cars.

Chuchote

beauf wrote: »

Clamping is not done by the garda, in the main. Hence its enforced.

Cycle fines and general poor driving isn't in the main. The cycle rate was reported as 3 or 4 fines a day. Dunno about cars.

Bicycles are clamped?

beauf

Chuchote wrote: »

Bicycles are clamped?

There's a clampdown on cycling offences.

It's a vicious cycle.

Leroy42

Its about critical mass. At the moment cycling is still seen as either something kids do or poor people. Even the dad said she cycled because she couldn't afford parking. People think that you should drive to work, maybe bus or train, and cycling is for hippies, Mamils and crazy people.

As long as that is what most people think then the problem will continue. The car is seen as priority to everything. Until such time as cycling becomes the norm, so that at least a critical mass of people are doing it, then it will remain as an outlier activity.

One thing I thought of yesterday was parking, particularly on street parking. That would be the first to go. Unless you can arrange for parking bays that still allow unimpeded traffic flow then it should be illegal. We spend millions on roads only for people to park on them making an obstruction. For too long the convenience of the car has been at the centre of planning. Take this away and suddenly the car becomes more of a hassle.

And for every 5 parking bays there should be a designed space for bike racks. With proper bike racks you could fit multiple bikes in the space of one car. Look at every local shop area (Shop, bookies, dry cleaners etc). Lots of parking right in front of the shops but nowhere to lock your bike and signs telling you to keep away from the glass. So where do you park your bike? In the end you will get in someones way because there is nowhere to put it. This puts people off cycling down to the local shops etc.

Of course cars will still be required and trucks, buses etc. But by reducing the total volume, and thereby increasing the number on bikes/walking then the issue will reduce. Also, by making it the norm to cycle, with the right infrastructure to accommodate it, then people will move their current mindset to appreciate that not every journey needs a car.

I would opt to cycle to most places within reason. My other half wouldn't know one end of a bike to another and would drive to the local shops. There is no actual reason why they can't cycle but it is something foreign to them. Because when she drives there are spaces at both ends of the journey, it is simply more convenient to them.

We should be aiming for a massive reduction in private motorised traffic within the confines of the main cities. This would require more park and ride facilities and the like so that people can park their cars and cycle the rest of the way etc.

Type 17

Leroy42 wrote: »

Its about critical mass...
[Sensible points, well made]...
We should be aiming for a massive reduction in private motorised traffic within the confines of the main cities. This would require more park and ride facilities and the like so that people can park their cars and cycle the rest of the way etc.

A major part of any culture change would need to include a change in the way vehicles and fuel are taxed - there are huge taxes are on the purchase (VAT, VRT) and ownership (Motor Tax) of a car before it gets driven at all. While there is a lot of tax on fuel, the high costs of purchase and ownership ensure that people feel obliged to use their cars at every opportunity - when I don't drive my own car for a few days, it crosses my mind that I have wasted a few € in unused Motor Tax (& insurance).
Foreign colleagues I work with who look at DoneDeal are amazed at how cheap used cars are here, but are then shocked when I outline the costs of actually putting any car they might buy on the road.

This skewed situation needs to be changed, or the culture of using public transport or cycling as equally valid alternatives to driving a private car will never take hold.

magicbastarder

Type 17 wrote: »

when I don't drive my own car for a few days, it crosses my mind that I have wasted a few € in unused Motor Tax (& insurance).

i mentioned to a colleague recently that if i'm going to the bike shop, i'll often get the bus (stops outside my house, and outside the bike shop). they looked at me like i'd two heads, as i've a car sitting in the driveway.
worth pointing out that i've got a rolling monthly leap card, so the bus journey does not cost me anything extra.

tomasrojo

Very true about all the up-front costs in car ownership. If ownership were cheaper, but individual journeys far more expensive, you'd see a different dynamic, with maybe higher car ownership, but fewer journeys. For example, car ownership in the Netherlands is higher than here, but car dependency is lower.

In a similar vein, I tend to have a long think before using GoCar for journeys, as individual journeys are quite pricey. But I pay €400-500 a year on car use because I only pay for the time I have the car away from the GoCar base, which is a sum rather less than I'd pay if I owned a car, even one I used as seldom as GoCar.

magicbastarder

i remember hearing an oft-repeated statistic that something in excess of 50% of journeys under one mile in dublin were made in the car - anyone know if this still stands?

nailer54321

No one has mentioned cyclists wearing the correct hi viz and having lights on there bikes. I drive through the city centre every morning around 6am and am always baffled about how many cyclists don't have lights on the bikes and are dressed all in black. No that it is dark in the morning for god sake can all you cyclists out there get lights for your bike and wear a hi viz bib. Do you not realise that you can not be seen in the dark with not lights on your bikes and dressed in black. I am not bashing cyclists, this is just my observation over the last few weeks since it has gotten dark in the mornings.

tomasrojo

magicbastarder wrote: »

i remember hearing an oft-repeated statistic that something in excess of 50% of journeys under one mile in dublin were made in the car - anyone know if this still stands?

Funnily enough, I was reading this recently, which almost answers that question:
http://irishcycle.com/myths/myths-distances/

For city-centre residents, walking and cycling dominate. Once you get to the inner suburbs, private motorised transport is used for the majority of trips, but not an overwhelming majority. Further out, complete domination by private motorised transport.

Wishbone Ash

Leroy42 wrote: »

....At the moment cycling is still seen as either something kids do or poor people.....

I don't find that to be the case at all now. When I cycled to work in the 1980's it was not the fashionable thing to do. The vast majority of those that cycled, did so because they could not afford a car (myself included) and not because they wanted to cycle.

Nowadays almost everyone I know who cycles to work does so because they want to and most are on above average incomes and have a car sitting on the driveway at home.

tomasrojo

nailer54321 wrote: »

No one has mentioned cyclists wearing the correct hi viz and having lights on there bikes.

Lights are all you need really, though I do have a reflective belt around my satchel, as it wraps up small and I can put it in the satchel when off the bike. It isn't that dark in the mornings yet. I've used full lights the last few mornings (leaving house at eight), but it really isn't that dark yet.

EDIT: Missed that you said 6am. Yes, it's very dark at 6am! But decent lights are all you need.

tomasrojo

Ian Walker mentioned on Twitter a few days ago that his doctor had assumed that he (Walker) had driven the 500m to the surgery. That's the UK, but it's very similar here.

alb

Self driving vehicles are going to be the real solution, it's just a matter of how long it takes, but it probably won't take long enough that any other significant change in infrastructure happens before that.

P_1

nailer54321 wrote: »

No one has mentioned cyclists wearing the correct hi viz and having lights on there bikes. I drive through the city centre every morning around 6am and am always baffled about how many cyclists don't have lights on the bikes and are dressed all in black. No that it is dark in the morning for god sake can all you cyclists out there get lights for your bike and wear a hi viz bib. Do you not realise that you can not be seen in the dark with not lights on your bikes and dressed in black. I am not bashing cyclists, this is just my observation over the last few weeks since it has gotten dark in the mornings.

Lights yes but a high viz is unnecessary in my eyes, I always find the yellow streetlighs tend to make you blend in with them.

cdaly_

nailer54321 wrote: »

No one has mentioned cyclists wearing the correct hi viz

No such thing as "correct hi viz" and it's not very wise to be depending on somebody else to have working lights for you to be seen. Decent lights and assertive road positioning work far better...

odyssey06

I would be very dubious about any data which claims to know the distance and mode of travel for all journeys in dublin.

The census only asks about commuter journeys i think, and even then i would not place great store in its detailed accuracy given the limited set of questions and all the issues attached to self reporting.

nak

I definitely think there is a general assumption that if you are cycling to work it is because you don't have a licence or can't afford a car. Have a car, have never driven to work even though I work outside the city with free parking. Everyone assumes I don't drive. My car gets used to take me to cycling events, weekends away and that's pretty much it.

Allabaah

cdaly_ wrote: »

No such thing as "correct hi viz" and it's not very wise to be depending on somebody else to have working lights for you to be seen. Decent lights and assertive road positioning work far better...

I'd agree completely.

Here is an interesting article on Hi-Vis

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2013/jan/10/cycling-high-visibility-safe-fluorescent

beauf

nailer54321 wrote: »

No one has mentioned cyclists wearing the correct hi viz and having lights on there bikes. I drive through the city centre every morning around 6am and am always baffled about how many cyclists don't have lights on the bikes and are dressed all in black. No that it is dark in the morning for god sake can all you cyclists out there get lights for your bike and wear a hi viz bib. Do you not realise that you can not be seen in the dark with not lights on your bikes and dressed in black. I am not bashing cyclists, this is just my observation over the last few weeks since it has gotten dark in the mornings.

I'm baffled how many drive while doing something else like on the mobile, slurping a coffee or just day dreaming. They'd miss the titanic in front of them.

Pity we don't have laws for all these things.....oh wait....

Why is there no Garda confiscating these bikes. And mobiles. It's rampant.

beauf

nak wrote: »

I definitely think there is a general assumption that if you are cycling to work it is because you don't have a licence or can't afford a car. Have a car, have never driven to work even though I work outside the city with free parking. Everyone assumes I don't drive. My car gets used to take me to cycling events, weekends away and that's pretty much it.

Anyone who thinks that these days must be oblivious to society and the world around them.

Zillah

nailer54321 wrote: »

No one has mentioned cyclists wearing the correct hi viz and having lights on there bikes. I drive through the city centre every morning around 6am and am always baffled about how many cyclists don't have lights on the bikes and are dressed all in black. No that it is dark in the morning for god sake can all you cyclists out there get lights for your bike and wear a hi viz bib. Do you not realise that you can not be seen in the dark with not lights on your bikes and dressed in black. I am not bashing cyclists, this is just my observation over the last few weeks since it has gotten dark in the mornings.

Lights are required, high viz is not. It still doesn't help much. Our problem is bad infrastructure. Cyclists shouldn't be forced to share narrow road space with cars. While that remains the situation won't change.

micar

nailer54321 wrote: »

No one has mentioned cyclists wearing the correct hi viz and having lights on there bikes. I drive through the city centre every morning around 6am and am always baffled about how many cyclists don't have lights on the bikes and are dressed all in black. No that it is dark in the morning for god sake can all you cyclists out there get lights for your bike and wear a hi viz bib. Do you not realise that you can not be seen in the dark with not lights on your bikes and dressed in black. I am not bashing cyclists, this is just my observation over the last few weeks since it has gotten dark in the mornings.

Well, I travel across the city leaving at 6.30.

I have a hi viz and lights - front and back.

Some motorists just don't look out for cyclists. They will still pull across you pull out in front of you from the left and right.

FYI. There are a lot of cyclists who have lights and high viz. You seem to just focus on those who don't.

DanDublin1982

micar wrote: »

Well, I travel across the city leaving at 6.30.

I have a hi viz and lights - front and back.

Some motorists just don't look out for cyclists. They will still pull across you pull out in front of you from the left and right.

FYI. There are a lot of cyclists who have lights and high viz. You seem to just focus on those who don't.

Its amazing how often cyclists with no hi viz actually get noticed. :pac:

cdaly_

micar wrote: »

FYI. There are a lot of cyclists who have lights and high viz. You seem to just focus on those who don't.

Perhaps he only sees the ones who don't.

I certainly notice plenty without hi-vis which shows you can see them...

Pinch Flat

nailer54321 wrote: »

No one has mentioned cyclists wearing the correct hi viz and having lights on there bikes. I drive through the city centre every morning around 6am and am always baffled about how many cyclists don't have lights on the bikes and are dressed all in black. No that it is dark in the morning for god sake can all you cyclists out there get lights for your bike and wear a hi viz bib. Do you not realise that you can not be seen in the dark with not lights on your bikes and dressed in black. I am not bashing cyclists, this is just my observation over the last few weeks since it has gotten dark in the mornings.

And yet I managed to get knocked off my bike from the rear - twice - both motorists Claimed to have not seen an 80 lumen (I.e. very bright - visible from a kilometre according to the manufacturer) and a half watt flashing helmet rear light and a hi vis bag cover - all accompanied by my good self at 6'2" and 16 stone.

nak

beauf wrote: »

Anyone who thinks that these days must be oblivious to society and the world around them.

It explains all the "they don't pay tax/should have a licence" rants.

They just can't imagine not using the car. Most of them live in South County Dublin and don't venture into the city centre that often, so they don't see that many cyclists commuting. For some getting the bus is seen as a terrible hardship and they would rather pay extra for a taxi.

I know people in the UK that are the same - my 14 year old nephew had never been on public transport until we took him on a train. My flatmate used to drive to the shop 200m away when walking would have been quicker.

Wishbone Ash

nak wrote: »

... my 14 year old nephew had never been on public transport until we took him on a train.. ....

I don't think my 14yr old daughter has ever been on a Dublin Bus. She does get the train to school but shudders at the thoughts of having to share a bus with others.

magicbastarder

when i was a kid my folks used to refer to the 39 as 'our' bus and i couldn't understand why other people were allowed on 'our' bus.

beauf

They must never look at social media or the news in general. Cycling is constantly mentioned.

Chuchote

nak wrote: »

It explains all the "they don't pay tax/should have a licence" rants.

They just can't imagine not using the car. Most of them live in South County Dublin and don't venture into the city centre that often, so they don't see that many cyclists commuting. For some getting the bus is seen as a terrible hardship and they would rather pay extra for a taxi.

I know people in the UK that are the same - my 14 year old nephew had never been on public transport until we took him on a train. My flatmate used to drive to the shop 200m away when walking would have been quicker.

It's also hugely expensive to use a car - an average of a stonking €11,000 according to a recent AA study - and the average Dublin car journey is just 2km, according to the CSO - and drivers may be beginning to feel a bit stupid.

magicbastarder

that AA figure is hugely overblown. they estimated several K on parking, IIRC.

Chuchote

magicbastarder wrote: »

that AA figure is hugely overblown. they estimated several K on parking, IIRC.

When I gave up my car I worked out that I was spending around a thou a year on parking - and I'm not a commuter. If you park in, say, a Red zone (or indeed in the dearer Yellow zone) for eight or eight-and-a-half hours a day in Dublin, how much is that over a year?

Wishbone Ash

Chuchote wrote: »

... If you park in, say, a Red zone (or indeed in the dearer Yellow zone) for eight or eight-and-a-half hours a day in Dublin, how much is that over a year?

Currently €2.90 per hour in the yellow zone so around €25 for 8.5 hours €125 per week or about €6,000 per year.

(Incidently, it's illegal to park for 8 hours in one street - you'd have to be prepared to move to a different street every 3 hours. Proper order too compared to years ago when office staff hogged spaces all day).

Chuchote

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Currently €2.90 per hour in the yellow zone so around €25 for 8.5 hours €125 per week or about €6,000 per year.

(Incidently, it's illegal to park for 8 hours in one street - you'd have to be prepared to move to a different street every 3 hours. Proper order too compared to years ago when office staff hogged spaces all day).

So that sounds as if the AA are right, if they're talking about people paying for their car on the never-never, paying tax, paying insurance, paying petrol, paying the mechanic to fix it, new tyres, and an NCT however often. And of course AA membership :P

endagibson

alb wrote: »

Self driving vehicles are going to be the real solution, it's just a matter of how long it takes, but it probably won't take long enough that any other significant change in infrastructure happens before that.

I wouldn't have any faith in driverless cars solving much. Parking could become unnecessary as the ability to send the car home exists, but that is dependent upon legislation allowing cars to travel while empty, the cost of fuel remaining the same, time taken and congestion.

Congestion is the big problem on the roads and although I can see driverless cars helping slightly with that due to additional efficiency in changing lanes and handling junctions, it won't make it go away and might actually increase it. Congestion is caused by there simply being too much vehicle carrying too few passengers. You can spot it yourself any morning on your commute by counting the occupants on any vehicle. Excluding buses and lorries, most cars of all sizes are running at 20% capacity. Vans aren't so bad; they can often have two or three people in the cab.

Thinking again about driverless cars and congestion, it should actually become worse if sending the car home instead of parking becomes the norm. Then you have a number of cars on the road travelling at 0% capacity.

magicbastarder

yeah, i keep hearing what will be possible with driverless cars; which continually misses the point that there's plenty possible with current cars, which society shows little interest in.
e.g. the notion of pooled cars which will massively reduce the number of cars actually needed in the national 'fleet'.

i can still see a huge number of people who want to sit in a car on their own.

endagibson

DanDublin1982 wrote: »

Its amazing how often cyclists with no hi viz actually get noticed. :pac:

I did look up some stats on the times of cycle-involved collisions a few years ago and it was tiny. Almost all occurred during daylight hours.

It really is time to put this visibility canard to rest. If you weren't seen it's because someone wasn't looking. My belief is that the cyclist was seen and a decision was taken to act regardless, but you can't admit that to a Guard when it all goes wrong.

tomasrojo

endagibson wrote: »

My belief is that the cyclist was seen and a decision was taken to act regardless, but you can't admit that to a Guard when it all goes wrong.

At official levels, drivers' claims to have been unable to see cyclist or pedestrian they killed are treated as the definitive word on what happened. In the words of Mandy Rice-Davies: they would say that, wouldn't they.

cdaly_

magicbastarder wrote: »

yeah, i keep hearing what will be possible with driverless cars; which continually misses the point that there's plenty possible with current cars, which society shows little interest in.
e.g. the notion of pooled cars which will massively reduce the number of cars actually needed in the national 'fleet'.

i can still see a huge number of people who want to sit in a car on their own.

To be fair though, you also see a huge number of people who want to pedal a bicycle on their own. I don't see any tandem-pooling going on...

tomasrojo

I'd love to go about on a tandem. Maybe when the kids are older. I have two kids. Maybe a trandem.

cdaly_

tomasrojo wrote: »

I'd love to go about on a tandem. Maybe when the kids are older. I have two kids. Maybe a trandem.

If you're in Clontarf this weekend.*










*You won't get to go very far on it though...

Chuchote

Or something like the Dublin Pedibus, where tourists power the bus by pedaling. (Can't understand why they face in rather than out, though.)
http://www.dublinpedibus.com/

alb

endagibson wrote: »

I wouldn't have any faith in driverless cars solving much.

I think in the long run they'll have a massive impact, in a number of ways. The first way is safety, which is why I mentioned it in this thread. There'll be way fewer cases of cars hitting cyclists, it most likely won't happen at all unless the cyclist does something to cause it.

endagibson wrote: »

Congestion is the big problem on the roads and although I can see driverless cars helping slightly with that due to additional efficiency in changing lanes and handling junctions, it won't make it go away and might actually increase it.

This isn't directly related to this thread, but I think they'll have a huge impact on congestion too. research shows that how humans drive has a large impact on what causes traffic. It'll improve this aspect.

On a bigger scale car ownership should drop in urban areas once automated vehicles are widespread for a number of reasons - when you can cheaply and almost instantly have a car at your service on demand (and I mean a service much better and cheaper than current taxis by this) there's little need to own one, like when you've spotify or netflix you're less likely to own a media collection. Insurance for manually driven cars may become prohibitively high if they end up being the ones causing all the remaining accidents.

If the trend in vehicles changes from primarily ownership to primarily hire on demand, vehicles themselves will change. The most common vehicle may only seat one or two people meaning it can be smaller, but whatever happens there should be little reason for many cars with many empty seats to ever be on the road in this scenario. Lets hope my day-dreams of automobile utopia come true

magicbastarder

i dunno. humans have an uncanny knack of taking something designed with one goal in mind and using to achieve the opposite.