RAW Superthread

ThePott

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Not all stouts are Guinness, but Guinness is the best-known brand.
Likewise, the biggest pro-wrestling company in the world calling itself "sports entertainment" does not mean you can call all the other companies by the same name.

That's not comparable at all as Guinness is a brand. That would only work if everyone called other promotions WWE. Or if someone put out a stout but insisted it wasn't, that it was a dark beer. That works for marketing but is deceptive. This whole argument to me is like the whole I don't read comic books I read graphic novels, that is an ill-definted distinction.

I'm asking very simply what makes something pro wrestling and not sports entertainment, because I guarantee AEW will have elements of both. It's not a catch all term. I don't care either way, I watch both and can enjoy both and don't care about what it calls itself, I'm just curious what people say.

LineOfBeauty

ThePott wrote: »

I think you'd need to clarify what makes something pro wrestling and not sports entertainment.
Vince used Sports Entertainment so that wrestling wouldn't face the same regulation as other competitive sports. So if other promotions and wrestling in general are not facing regulation then are they not sports entertainment as well?

What makes something pro wrestling and not sports entertainment?

Because sports entertainment is a completely made up thing. When it suits McMahon it's a way to dodge the sports boards and committees because "we're entertainment pal" and when it suits him when he's in negotiations for TV contracts it's "we do live sports pal." Ultimately, it's down to McMahon, who always found pro wrestling to be a "southern" thing, hates that what he's known for is "wrasslin'." He wants to be known as anything other than a pro wrestling promoter so much that he created a new term for it "sports entertainment" and has gone out of his way, to the point where the incomprehensible lexicon of WWE now saturates their TV product, to create a Universe in which WWE is anything but pro wrestling.

What makes something pro wrestling and not sports entertainment? Pro wrestling is a craft hundreds of years old that can encompass anything from Kobashi/Misawa, a man wrestling a bear, cages, bloody, hand gun gestures, anything and sports entertainment is a made up term to placate the ego of one man. That's the difference.

ThePott

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

What makes something pro wrestling and not sports entertainment? Pro wrestling is a craft hundreds of years old that can encompass anything from Kobashi/Misawa, a man wrestling a bear, cages, bloody, hand gun gestures, anything and sports entertainment is a made up term to placate the ego of one man. That's the difference.

Of course it's made-up. Everything is made-up dude. Yes, it was made to avoid sports regulation but by that logic anyone not regulated as a sport is not pro wrestling. This isn't really an explanation of what it is.

If you're saying pro wrestling can encompass all of those things what makes AEW not sports entertainment and WWE sports entertainment. It seems like you're just using Sports Entertainment to classify the things you don't like and Pro Wrestling for the things you do like. That's not how definitions work.

The term is made up but half the stuff you mentioned has been present in WWE too so by that logic it is pro wrestling and not sports entertainment. Is it just sports entertainment because Vince says so and AEW is pro wrestling because they insist they are not sports entertainment.

In that case it's a meaningless label.

LineOfBeauty

ThePott wrote: »

Of course it's made-up. Everything is made-up dude. Yes, it was made to avoid sports regulation but by that logic anyone not regulated as a sport is not pro wrestling. This isn't really an explanation of what it is.

If you're saying pro wrestling can encompass all of those things what makes AEW not sports entertainment and WWE sports entertainment. It seems like you're just using Sports Entertainment to classify the things you don't like and Pro Wrestling for the things you do like. That's not how definitions work.

The term is made up but half the stuff you mentioned has been present in WWE too so by that logic it is pro wrestling and not sports entertainment. Is it just sports entertainment because Vince says so and AEW is pro wrestling because they insist they are not sports entertainment.

In that case it's a meaningless label.

I think you've completely misunderstood all of my points. Wrestling can be anything. Some things I hate deeply. I don't need to see a man work a bear. I don't need Matt Hardy teleporting. But if it happens on a wrestling show and they call it wrestling then sure, why not, it's a broad church. That's not a matter of "oh you like this so it's wrestling."

What I'm saying is that if Vince McMahon died in the morning (hypothetically) and WWE stopped using the term "Sports Entertainment (again, not going to happen) do you think anybody, fan, wrestler, or wrestling company, would use the term again (outside of irony or recapping a truly awful period in the history of WWE)? Of course they wouldn't.

So, in summarization, no AEW would not refer to themselves as sports entertainment. And, on a different topic than this, they are far more similar in terms of their presentation and overall booking style to other pro wrestling companies (both past and present) than they are to WWE.

ThePott

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

So, in summarization, no AEW would not refer to themselves as sports entertainment. And, on a different topic than this, they are far more similar in terms of their presentation and overall booking style to other pro wrestling companies (both past and present) than they are to WWE.

I don't think I am missing your point. Would they use the term, probably not. Unless someone called for regulation, then I guarantee most places would clamour to say they were sports entertainment.

AEW has a different style certainly than WWE but styles evolve. I don't think you can compare current WWE to past WWE in some ways either. They are an alternative so they should be different, I just take issue with people doing mental gymnastics (not you specifically) saying sports entertainment and pro wrestling are vastly different.

I see far more people complaining about the sports entertainment label than l see WWE calling themselves sports entertainment too.

beakerjoe

Sports entertainment to me is just a marketing tool. Vince and WWWE use it to market wrestling. It doenst work, he is still in the wrestling business no matter what he calls it.

Its all wrestling.

TimesArrow

https://wrestlingnews.co/wwe-news/vince-mcmahon-is-looking-to-shake-things-up-again-this-monday-on-raw/

CastorTroy

Oh oh

The White Wolf

Carmella....ah c'mon ffs. A one note heel. Can't genuinely take that tweet seriously. Cesaro is just a go to name for such lists with the fandom, while Peyton and Garza are popular with the IWC.

oldtimeyfella

TimesArrow wrote: »

https://wrestlingnews.co/wwe-news/vince-mcmahon-is-looking-to-shake-things-up-again-this-monday-on-raw/

This should be hilarious. One week of jobbers winning matches that make no sense for them to win and Adam Cole gets the big call-up and is utterly buried by the second week in January.


The ratings barely change and Vince goes back to shoving Roman, Seth and Bray Wyatt In a Halloween Costume down peoples throats.

J. Marston

Garza and Carmella. Christ alive...

I cannot stand Garza. Carmella's new "I'm hot" gimmick is rubbish and Peyton is the unfunny one from the Iconics. Cesaro? The boat sailed on him about 5 years ago.

Lithium93_

TimesArrow wrote: »

https://wrestlingnews.co/wwe-news/vince-mcmahon-is-looking-to-shake-things-up-again-this-monday-on-raw/

CastorTroy wrote: »

Oh oh

To quote Han Solo.

I have a very bad feeling about this.



Though the question must be asked; had Vince just left Heyman to what he was doing, taking time to build new stars instead of canning him for Bruce Prichard, would it have made a difference, or would ratings still plummet regardless?

Loughc

I for one am looking forward to see whatever half baked idea they conjure up and abandon it with no explanation 2 weeks later.

The White Wolf

I'd be curious to know if anyone thinks Vince can turn things around without changing his priorities.

Like with the roster he has what angle could he do that could turn things around in weeks, without breaking assurances to his tv contract or sponsors.

CastorTroy

How are Christmas viewing figures usually? Like is now the time to change things up?

Loughc

CastorTroy wrote: »

How are Christmas viewing figures usually? Like is now the time to change things up?

I stand corrected here but I always thought the Christmas shows were traditional the lowest of the year anyway.

oldtimeyfella

J. Marston wrote: »

Garza and Carmella. Christ alive...

I cannot stand Garza. Carmella's new "I'm hot" gimmick is rubbish and Peyton is the unfunny one from the Iconics. Cesaro? The boat sailed on him about 5 years ago.

Isn't Cesaro banged up to the point where him having to retire is 50/50? I have no idea who Garza is and Carmella could barely run the ropes when i stopped watching WWE regularly.


This is what the crack writing team comes up with? Just get Cornette or Jarrett or some other old school wrasslin' guy to write the show for you instead. What have you got to lose?

Smacruairi

How to fix the ratings!?
What does everybody want?
What does everybody love?
What does everybody need?

But seeing as they won't go smutty, I don't see why they don't do what did them well, have the wwe championship as a superweight belt with a Lesnar type on top, and then focus on the US and Inter titles as the ones you build your weekly shows around.

Let Roman and Fiend and Drew come in every month and put on strong matches, have them do the tag match with the underdog Intercontinental challenger (think Austin and xpac vs taker and Shane) and you have tag and women's fill out the rest.

Think going to the main event well absolutely every week just means nothing feels special.

Agent Coulson

How long before Prichard is back on the podcast touring scene refusing to say anything interesting at all.

J. Marston

https://www.wrestlinginc.com/news/2020/12/usa-network-reportedly-upset-with-wwe-raw-ratings-678152/

USA Network are "furious" and want more adult content. But not sexy adult, more dark and violent adult.

oldtimeyfella

Smacruairi wrote: »

How to fix the ratings!?
What does everybody want?
What does everybody love?
What does everybody need?

But seeing as they won't go smutty, I don't see why they don't do what did them well, have the wwe championship as a superweight belt with a Lesnar type on top, and then focus on the US and Inter titles as the ones you build your weekly shows around.

Let Roman and Fiend and Drew come in every month and put on strong matches, have them do the tag match with the underdog Intercontinental challenger (think Austin and xpac vs taker and Shane) and you have tag and women's fill out the rest.

Think going to the main event well absolutely every week just means nothing feels special.

The lower titles in WWE are pretty much meaningless at this stage, there's too many of them and they have zero prestige. Hell, even the top title ends up being irrelevant most of the time because Brock or some auld lad has it and they only show up every now and then.


Other than that they put it on Roman, Bray or Seth,all of which no one but the most dyed in the wool WWE heads care about.

CastorTroy

Cutting to 2 hours wouldn't be a bad thing.
I remember when they started the 3 hour thing they claimed it would showcase the lesser seen talent Glad it works like that as we never see The Miz, Morrisson, Randy, Bray, AJ, Nia, Shayna, etc.
And how many of them appear multiple times despite not even wanting to see Nia even once per week.

Then I remember saying how the guys who pretty much helped carry the shows through the lockdown will probably be forgotten about. I'm not saying they were popular and I know other issues but Garza, Andrade, Humberto and others were knocked down the card long before anything happened with Zelina.

Agent Coulson

Reports tonight that USA are very unhappy and furious with the ratings and they want more adult action not sexy but more darker and violent.

When RAW is drawing 1.5m viewers and The Miz and Mrs is drawing 500k viewers on the same Network could the WWE say they are getting 2m viewers.

beakerjoe

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Reports tonight that USA are very unhappy and furious with the ratings and they want more adult action not sexy but more darker and violent.

When RAW is drawing 1.5m viewers and The Miz and Mrs is drawing 500k viewers on the same Network could the WWE say they are getting 2m viewers.

Arent Miz and Mrs doing better than Raw, or did I imagine that.

Agent Coulson

beakerjoe wrote: »

Arent Miz and Mrs doing better than Raw, or did I imagine that.

In the 18-49 demo they are/were I do remember reading that.

They were drawing a million viewers an episode last season so they have lost half their viewers.


I wonder has USA just lost its Audience in general across the board.

beakerjoe

CastorTroy wrote: »

Cutting to 2 hours wouldn't be a bad thing.
I remember when they started the 3 hour thing they claimed it would showcase the lesser seen talent Glad it works like that as we never see The Miz, Morrisson, Randy, Bray, AJ, Nia, Shayna, etc.
And how many of them appear multiple times despite not even wanting to see Nia even once per week.

Then I remember saying how the guys who pretty much helped carry the shows through the lockdown will probably be forgotten about. I'm not saying they were popular and I know other issues but Garza, Andrade, Humberto and others were knocked down the card long before anything happened with Zelina.

WWE have a fantastic young roster who most if them have been victims of 50 50 booking.

Garza, Andrade, Riddle, Lee, Cedric, Lucha House Party, Riott Squad, Rusev, Murphy, Carrillo.... all potential stars if nooked right. WEae seem capable of only creating ome star at a time while AEW gets most people over to some degree.

Those who once looked strong like Aliester Black, who was once unbeaten for a long period, have been never capitalised upon.

The booking of Black in particular is mind boggling. Hot new star in the making, a good NXT run. A solid debut run in which he had a good series with Murphy and a a nice win over Lashley.

Then feuds with Seth Rollins.. . Surely the end game should be he goes to at least have a good PPV match with Rollins.... maybe go over. No. He gets pushed aside for a broken down Rey Mysterio and his green, bland kid. Black gets lost in the shuffle and turned heel for no reason against Kevin Owens.... gets jobbed out to a new big man (who also was jobbed out himself soon after).

And thats all before he gets taken off TV as a result of his wifes firing.

WWE cant make stars and they never will again until something big changes.

oldtimeyfella

beakerjoe wrote: »

WWE have a fantastic young roster who most if them have been victims of 50 50 booking.

Garza, Andrade, Riddle, Lee, Cedric, Lucha House Party, Riott Squad, Rusev, Murphy, Carrillo.... all potential stars if nooked right. WEae seem capable of only creating ome star at a time while AEW gets most people over to some degree.

Those who once looked strong like Aliester Black, who was once unbeaten for a long period, have been never capitalised upon.

The booking of Black in particular is mind boggling. Hot new star in the making, a good NXT run. A solid debut run in which he had a good series with Murphy and a a nice win over Lashley.

Then feuds with Seth Rollins.. . Surely the end game should be he goes to at least have a good PPV match with Rollins.... maybe go over. No. He gets pushed aside for a broken down Rey Mysterio and his green, bland kid. Black gets lost in the shuffle and turned heel for no reason against Kevin Owens.... gets jobbed out to a new big man (who also was jobbed out himself soon after).

And thats all before he gets taken off TV as a result of his wifes firing.

WWE cant make stars and they never will again until something big changes.

He was being built up for one of the establsihed WWE guys to beat. That's one of the main reasons hot indie talent is brought in.



Deny other organisations from using them, book them on a hot streak against no one important and then have Seth "Poundshop Omega" Rollins or Roman "The Rocks Cousin" Reigns beat them to show that the real stars were the WWE guys all along.


They will pay a guy/gal hundreds of thousands a year to keep them from working elsewhere in between putting them in angles where they end up looking like dorks with no chance of getting over just to devalue them.

LineOfBeauty

beakerjoe wrote: »

WWE have a fantastic young roster who most if them have been victims of 50 50 booking.

Garza, Andrade, Riddle, Lee, Cedric, Lucha House Party, Riott Squad, Rusev, Murphy, Carrillo.... all potential stars if nooked right. WEae seem capable of only creating ome star at a time while AEW gets most people over to some degree.

Those who once looked strong like Aliester Black, who was once unbeaten for a long period, have been never capitalised upon.

The booking of Black in particular is mind boggling. Hot new star in the making, a good NXT run. A solid debut run in which he had a good series with Murphy and a a nice win over Lashley.

Then feuds with Seth Rollins.. . Surely the end game should be he goes to at least have a good PPV match with Rollins.... maybe go over. No. He gets pushed aside for a broken down Rey Mysterio and his green, bland kid. Black gets lost in the shuffle and turned heel for no reason against Kevin Owens.... gets jobbed out to a new big man (who also was jobbed out himself soon after).

And thats all before he gets taken off TV as a result of his wifes firing.

WWE cant make stars and they never will again until something big changes.

The day Heyman lost the book the Black push was dead in the water. There was a very clear list of guys Heyman was determined to get over, all of whom have been killed stone dead with regards their pushes. I don't think there's a single Heyman project that WWE stuck with after they jettisoned him.

CastorTroy

They'll have a slight bump with the announcement of Vince being there due to ones tuning in out of curiosity. Some will stick around for another week or 2 but then leave again when they see things going back to the way they were.
I'm sure Lana being taken out of the TLC match to free up the spot for a return just before this announcement isn't a coincidence.

But they'll also just do what they normally do as well and bring in ones from NXT.

J. Marston

There's the desperate, and a I mean desperate, attempt at a ratings bump. "Legends Night" in two weeks.