Is a hall an "access room"

Metric Tensor

fatty pang wrote: »

I would maintain it’s the designers responsibility to provide the relevant loadings for the window contractor.

I do provide loadings when asked. Particularly for glazed screens around stair cores and the like (I often write them on the tender documents in larger projects.) However, an important albeit pernickity distinction, this would make me a specifier providing a performance specification. The window manufacturer would still be the "designer" of the window - from a structural point of view anyway.

Mellor

Metric Tensor wrote: »

I do provide loadings when asked. Particularly for glazed screens around stair cores and the like (I often write them on the tender documents in larger projects.) However, an important albeit pernickity distinction, this would make me a specifier providing a performance specification. The window manufacturer would still be the "designer" of the window - from a structural point of view anyway.

That's not pernickity at all. It's common sense. Regardless of loading being specified or not, there is still an onus on the supplier to supply a product that is fit for purpose.

Ideally the documentation leaves no gaps. But if there happens to be a grey area, the onus is still there, it's not an opportunity to get away with anything.

Victor

The 800mm above ground level rule - note that not everyone can stoop down easily, so if having a 450 x 900mm escape window, make sure that the top of the window isn't too low.

Metric Tensor

I can picture people crawling out a cat flap!!! ;-)

fatty pang

Metric Tensor wrote: »

However, an important albeit pernickity distinction, this would make me a specifier providing a performance specification. The window manufacturer would still be the "designer" of the window - from a structural point of view anyway.

As a designer you are already providing a performance specification for the windows. The manufacturer will not know; the required u-value, if trickle vents are required & what ventilation they are required to supply, what rapid ventilation area is required, does the window have an escape requirement etc. Likewise they will not know if glazing is to act as a barrier – your stair core is just as likely to have railings. As the barrier loadings differ depending on building occupancy there is also an onus on the architect to inform the window supplier what loading will be required. Once the building designer tells the window supplier what is required they will go off and make the window and take responsibility that it complies with the specification, relevant CPR and that it is fitted correctly.

fatty pang

Mellor wrote: »

Regardless of loading being specified or not, there is still an onus on the supplier to supply a product that is fit for purpose.

In order for the supplier to provide a fit for purpose product, that purpose has to be clearly specified. The basic function of a window is to let in light. Anything else can be done by other means and is therefore essentially ancillary. As such, purpose needs to be adequately specified. It’s the architects cock-up if it’s not.

Ideally the documentation leaves no gaps.

Wishful thinking isn’t a substitute for competence in writing a specification - GIGO. The ‘performance’ specification of the windows & doors for the trendy (and publicly financed) rapid delivery dwellings being a case in point.

But if there happens to be a grey area, the onus is still there, it's not an opportunity to get away with anything.

That could be construed as trying to pass the buck along to the window supplier for the architect ‘forgetting’ to specify that the glazing will have a barrier function.

fatty pang

Metric Tensor wrote: »

I can picture people crawling out a cat flap!!! ;-)

A metaphor for our increasingly obese population trying to squeeze through a 450mm wide opening perhaps.

Metric Tensor

fatty pang wrote: »

As a designer you are already providing a performance specification for the windows. The manufacturer will not know; the required u-value, if trickle vents are required & what ventilation they are required to supply, what rapid ventilation area is required, does the window have an escape requirement etc. Likewise they will not know if glazing is to act as a barrier – your stair core is just as likely to have railings. As the barrier loadings differ depending on building occupancy there is also an onus on the architect to inform the window supplier what loading will be required. Once the building designer tells the window supplier what is required they will go off and make the window and take responsibility that it complies with the specification, relevant CPR and that it is fitted correctly.

Agree 100% with all of the above. My point was the window supplier IS a designer. The term designer being an important designation in terms of Health and Safety and Ancillary Certification. I completely agree with you that the window manufacturer/designer needs a fully detailed performance specification in order to design their product to suit. AND I know they rarely get it.

Mellor

fatty pang wrote: »

In order for the supplier to provide a fit for purpose product, that purpose has to be clearly specified.

Which is what I said. Specifying purpose is a prerequisite of any sitution.

The basic function of a window is to let in light. Anything else can be done by other means and is therefore essentially ancillary. As such, purpose needs to be adequately specified. It’s the architects cock-up if it’s not.

If simply a "window" was specified. Then a window is all that needs to be supplied And it's the architects cock up.
If the documents make it clear that a "window with suitable guarding" is to be supplied. Then providing just a window is the suppliers cock up.

Wishful thinking isn’t a substitute for competence in writing a specification - GIGO. The ‘performance’ specification of the windows & doors for the trendy (and publicly financed) rapid delivery dwellings being a case in point.

I'm not sure what project you refer to. Not what you point is.

That could be construed as trying to pass the buck along to the window supplier for the architect ‘forgetting’ to specify that the glazing will have a barrier function.

Only if you misconstrue my post
I'm pointing of that certain standard apply regardless of what is specified. Im not talking about window guarding specifically. If I buy a product from a supplier in isolation, it needs to conform to minimum standards