Quays route for cycleway agreed

Chuchote

http://irishcycle.com/2016/10/03/liffey-cycle-route-to-be-kept-on-the-quays-in-surprising-but-welcomed-move/

Colm Ryder, a spokesman for Dublin Cycling Campaign and chairman of Cyclist.ie, said: “Dublin Cycling Campaign are delighted with the latest draft design, Option 7, for the Liffey Cycle Route, which keeps cycling and public transport along Dublin’s north quays for its full length. This was the popular choice of the majority of original submissions made to previous consultations on the route.”
As well as a continuous segregated cycle route, the highlights of the proposed scheme are listed as buses and taxis staying on the quays; no boardwalk needed; no intervention at any of the historic Liffey bridges; and no changes required at any part of Croppies Acre. The issue of Croppies Acre had been controversial with many residents, due to a now scrapped plan to move buses onto Benburb Street, and Republican groups for interfering with the Croppies Acre memorial park.
The outline of the new solution will be presented to councillors and other committee members on Wednesday, it is then expected to be presented formally as part of the entire Liffey Cycle Route at the proceeding committee meeting on November 23.

guanciale

What is the timeline for this?
Also I wonder where all the 5+ axel HGVs that continually use the quays despite the ban will be rerouted to? (Not Guinness tracks btw).
Also given that current bus lane is regularly used by motorists and that trucks continue to use the quays then this scheme only works if laws are enforced. Need detection cameras.

Chuchote

guanciale wrote: »

What is the timeline for this?
Also I wonder where all the 5+ axel HGVs that continually use the quays despite the ban will be rerouted to? (Not Guinness tracks btw).
Also given that current bus lane is regularly used by motorists and that trucks continue to use the quays then this scheme only works if laws are enforced. Need detection cameras.

Did you read the piece, or even the part I quoted?

The outline of the new solution will be presented to councillors and other committee members on Wednesday, it is then expected to be presented formally as part of the entire Liffey Cycle Route at the proceeding committee meeting on November 23.

It will be completely free of motorised traffic other than buses, afaik. The cycle route will be separated.

Further:

As well as a continuous segregated cycle route, the highlights of the proposed scheme are listed as buses and taxis staying on the quays; no boardwalk needed; no intervention at any of the historic Liffey bridges; and no changes required at any part of Croppies' Acre.

DanDublin1982

How would they usually set up a two way cycle track? Would they put in dividers or just leave it as a free for all?

Chuchote

DanDublin1982 wrote: »

How would they usually set up a two way cycle track? Would they put in dividers or just leave it as a free for all?

A free for all, much like the way drivers don't drive straight at each other on other roads

DanDublin1982

Chuchote wrote: »

A free for all, much like the way drivers don't drive straight at each other on other roads

I hope you're right but I'll practice my clothesline technique in the meantime, just in case.

Chuchote

DanDublin1982 wrote: »

I hope you're right but I'll practice my clothesline technique in the meantime, just in case.

Clothesline?

DanDublin1982

Chuchote wrote: »

Clothesline?

Chuchote

DanDublin1982 wrote: »

Tooshockingtoquote

:eek:

Roadhawk

guanciale wrote: »

What is the timeline for this?
Also I wonder where all the 5+ axel HGVs that continually use the quays despite the ban will be rerouted to? (Not Guinness tracks btw).
Also given that current bus lane is regularly used by motorists and that trucks continue to use the quays then this scheme only works if laws are enforced. Need detection cameras.

Surprisingly 5+ axle HGVs are allowed in Dublin City Center once they have a permit pass. Only €10 per day.

http://www.dublincity.ie/main-menu-services-roads-and-traffic-hgv-management-strategy/apply-hgv-permits

Also a number of companies have specifically bought 2 axle trucks and 2 axle trailers so they can enter the city. It should be a laden weight ban.

Moflojo

DanDublin1982 wrote: »

How would they usually set up a two way cycle track? Would they put in dividers or just leave it as a free for all?

I'd imagine it'll be similar to the Grand Canal cycle path which is a single surface divided into two lanes by painted lines. The cycle path will probably be separated from the bus lane by a concrete kerb, and the cycle path will be at a lower level than the footpath so there will be a kerb separating the two also.

I like the new proposal (Option 7) and I think it's a good deal for buses, taxis, and cyclists alike. The only "losers" are private vehicles and private car park owners, but in a proper civic society they should always lose out to pedestrians, cyclists, and public transport.

Be prepared for a vicious campaign against this new proposal from the private car park operators (presented as "Local City Centre Businesses") and from the likes of the AA. Those groups have private vested interests at heart, not the betterment of the city as a whole. These are the very same groups that prevented the two Luas lines from being linked up in the first place because they feared the short term disruption the construction works would cause to their businesses. Let's not allow their short term greed to override the long term betterment of the city again.

Chuchote

Email your councillors to back this route (and give your reasons); councillors' emails here

http://www.dublincity.ie/main-menu-your-council-your-city-councillors/full-councillor-list

or PM me for a list set out as emails rather than clickable individually. (You may be sure the businesses have this, not to mention councillors at the end of an influential phone.)

DanDublin1982

Moflojo wrote: »

I'd imagine it'll be similar to the Grand Canal cycle path which is a single surface divided into two lanes by painted lines. The cycle path will probably be separated from the bus lane by a concrete kerb, and the cycle path will be at a lower level than the footpath so there will be a kerb separating the two also.

I use that for the commute and the lines are only on parts of it but it's nowhere near as busy as one on the quays would be. I take the point though, its likely to be absolutely grand.

monument

In London on their new two-way cycle paths they only seem to have opted for lanes within the cycle paths coming up to where there's a junction or crossing etc.

That seems to be a good approach as long as the width is ok.

malarkus

Chuchote wrote: »

Email your councillors to back this route (and give your reasons); councillors' emails here

http://www.dublincity.ie/main-menu-your-council-your-city-councillors/full-councillor-list

or PM me for a list set out as emails rather than clickable individually. (You may be sure the businesses have this, not to mention councillors at the end of an influential phone.)

Done!

ted1

I get the impression that this isn't a DoneDeal and it canstill be objected to but the usually multi-storey car parks operators who availed of tax breaks to build them

Moflojo

ted1 wrote: »

I get the impression that this isn't a DoneDeal and it canstill be objected to but the usually multi-storey car parks operators who availed of tax breaks to build them

You're right, it's just a proposal and still has to be ratified by the council. The current proposal (Option 7) came about after the council had suggested they were going to move the cycle path off the quays and around the Croppy Acre. They was a big campaign from cycling advocacy groups to get the entire cycleway back onto the quays.

lawred2

Chuchote wrote: »

Did you read the piece, or even the part I quoted?



It will be completely free of motorised traffic other than buses, afaik. The cycle route will be separated.

Further:

So not free from motorised traffic then

guanciale

@Chucote
Yes I read your original post and the link attached. By timeline I meant timeline for the overall project and not the meeting where an option is presented - to my mind that is a stage in the project. Apol if unclear.

Again - the second part of my post was an observation. Currently the bus lane is currently floated by motorists.

Have to say it appears progress but I don't have any confidence that this will happen any time soon. Also it doesn't appear that in this option that a Croppies acre would be opened up to the river - regardless of the merits of that option it would have been nice to have the park opened up. Hopefully the railings can be removed at the very least.

Wishbone Ash

Roadhawk wrote: »

Surprisingly 5+ axle HGVs are allowed in Dublin City Center once they have a permit pass. Only €10 per day...

Why is it surprising? The ban was to prevent 5+ axles going through the city centre to get to Dublin Port and other places. It wasn't intended to prevent trucks which had to deliver/pick up within the city centre.

Moflojo

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Why is it surprising? The ban was to prevent 5+ axles going through the city centre to get to Dublin Port and other places. It wasn't intended to prevent trucks which had to deliver/pick up within the city centre.

Just to further reinforce the picture of the people in charge of making these decisions - There was originally supposed to be a North Port Tunnel and a South Port Tunnel. The southern one was reneged upon, but the 5 axle ban was still imposed, and hauliers from the south & southwest were forced to go around the entire M50 to get to the tunnel. (The 5-axle ban is absolutely a good thing, I'm just illustrating the point)

Basically, don't trust these people with mere 'proposals'. The Sutton to Sandycove scheme was proposed in 2002.

Two thousand and two.

S2S Press Release: http://s2s.ie/press-release/

magicbastarder

Moflojo wrote: »

Basically, don't trust these people with mere 'proposals'. The Sutton to Sandycove scheme was proposed in 2002.

Two thousand and two.

S2S Press Release: http://s2s.ie/press-release/

probably a good bit earlier than that - i posted a link about a week ago to an RTE doc on one documentary about cycling where they were talking about things in 1985 which haven't happened yet - i think a variation of S2S was mentioned.

magicbastarder

this is it.

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/doconone/2013/0527/647427-radio-documentary-bicycle-bell-bike-saddle-jim-lockhart/

Chuchote

Yeah, but they didn't have thousands of cyclists taking to the streets then. The Dutch showed us the way…

Moflojo

magicbastarder wrote: »

this is it.

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/doconone/2013/0527/647427-radio-documentary-bicycle-bell-bike-saddle-jim-lockhart/

Awesome, thanks for that link. I've just listened to the first couple of minutes and it sounds great!

markpb

Moflojo wrote: »

Just to further reinforce the picture of the people in charge of making these decisions - There was originally supposed to be a North Port Tunnel and a South Port Tunnel. The southern one was reneged upon, but the 5 axle ban was still imposed, and hauliers from the south & southwest were forced to go around the entire M50 to get to the tunnel. (The 5-axle ban is absolutely a good thing, I'm just illustrating the point)

The difference between going DPT/M50 and via a hypothetical southern tunnel is less than 20km and can be done in 30-40 minutes reliably 22 hours a day. Maybe they decided spending another billion euro wasn't worth it to chop half an hour off the travel time of a relatively small number of vehicles?

Moflojo

markpb wrote: »

The difference between going DPT/M50 and via a hypothetical southern tunnel is less than 20km and can be done in 30-40 minutes reliably 22 hours a day. Maybe they decided spending another billion euro wasn't worth it to chop half an hour off the travel time of a relatively small number of vehicles?

My point was about the difference between what proposed/promised and what's delivered. In that case, they delivered on 50% of what they had promised.

magicbastarder

markpb wrote: »

The difference between going DPT/M50 and via a hypothetical southern tunnel is less than 20km

according (kinda) to google maps, it's 30km.

well, the M11 beside bray to dublin port is showing as 21.5km via a direct route, via the M50/port tunnel, 50.5km.

where would the hypothetical southern tunnel go?

Moflojo

magicbastarder wrote: »

this is it.

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/doconone/2013/0527/647427-radio-documentary-bicycle-bell-bike-saddle-jim-lockhart/

I'm less than 10 minutes into the documentary and it's heartbreaking to listen to the exact same greeways being proposed that we're still talking about today: Royal Canal, Dodder, Sutton to Sandycove.

The worst part is hearing the speakers using the same, sad caveats about each proposal:

"...with a little bit of vision..."

"...with a little bit of imagination..."

"...with a small amount of investment..."

Alas, it seems, all of the above have been lacking. That documentary was made the year I was born, which makes the ideas it proposes older than I am, and I still consider those ideas somewhat lofty. I'm a bit deflated, even after attending today's protest.

Chuchote

Dublin transport is in a hames, and has been as long as I remember. It's an ongoing Elastoplast plan.
Look at Munich - the same population size and spread as Dublin, but they have a State-run underground railway system since 1971, which now has eight lines serving 96 stations, and encompassing 103.1 kilometres of routes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_U-Bahn
Cyclists are 17% of the traffic in Munich, and it is planned to raise that to 20%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycling_in_Munich
Look at Vancouver, which has turned itself into a cyclable city with pleasant cycleways, and seen the modal share soar
https://vimeo.com/183441272
Look at Copenhagen and Amsterdam; the many German cities that are now building mass cycling infrastructure.
It can be done; but for some reason, apparently not in Dublin.

Chuchote

Deedsie wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/business-organisation-opposes-liffey-quays-car-ban-1.2818217?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Chief executive of Dublin Town Richard Guiney said his organisation could not support the plan. “Some in the business community believe the ultimate goal is to have the city a car free zone, this doesn’t allay those concerns. My own view is there would be a significant economic impact if this goes ahead.

Dublin Town is a bunch of people who own car parks, yes?

This agglomeration of studies has some figures http://www.citylab.com/cityfixer/2015/03/the-complete-business-case-for-converting-street-parking-into-bike-lanes/387595/ including one on Dublin, and includes the famous Seattle case where "the sales index on 65th Street skyrocketed after the lane was put in place, especially compared with the index in the rest of the neighborhood".

I also saw a piece today bitterly complaining that cycleways have the effect of gentrifying neighbourhoods…

monument

Chuchote wrote: »

Dublin Town is a bunch of people who own car parks, yes?

No, it's not. That's the new group opposing College Green (which Dublin Town are not doing).

http://www.dublintown.ie/who-we-are/

EDIT: There's not much there. It's a BID, which is explained here: http://www.dublincity.ie/bid-business-improvement-district-scheme

EDIT #2: Dublin Town also has a corporate site: http://www.wearedublintown.ie/who-we-are/overview

Chuchote

Is 'Dublin Town' a thing? London Town, yes; but I've never heard Dublin called anything but Dublin City.

Interesting board of directors http://www.wearedublintown.ie/who-we-are/staff-the-board/ from the first to the last

monument

DublinTown Board of Directors

• Ray Hernan, Chairman -- head of Arnotts, a Weston family company -- car park owners
• Ross McMahon, Company Secretary, David McMahon & Company
• Noel Flynn, Treasurer, FFA Chartered Accountants
• Paul Barry, McDonalds
• Philip Bergin, Penneys -- partly owned by a Weston family company
• Ciaran Tuite, The Ilac Centre -- car park owners
• Greg Devitt, Stephen’s Green Shopping Centre -- car park owners
• Rose Kenny, Dublin City Council
• Lorcan Lynch, The Flowing Tide
• Derek Mc Donnell, Jervis Shopping Centre -- car park owners
• Clare Tynan, Le Bon Crubeen/Celtic Lodge
• Lorcan O’Connor, Carrolls Gifts
• Vincent O’Gorman, The Westbury Hotel
• Stephen Sealey, Brown Thomas -- a Weston family company -- sell rights to car park to use their name
• Cól Campbell, Bewleys
• Alan Campbell, The Bankers Bar
• Cllr. Ciarán Cuffe, Dublin City Council
• Cllr. Mannix Flynn, Dublin City Council

Weston family also own the department store in Amsterdam which has held off further car restrictions there.

Ray Hernan was also Financial Officer at Brown Thomas, so he had that link before they took over Arnotts in the recent past. He has also held positions in Ryanair -- we know what that company's boss thinks of cyclists.

Just saying. Just some context behind the companies and names.

buffalo

Chuchote wrote: »

Dublin Town is a bunch of people who own car parks, yes?

You're probably thinking of the Dublin City Traders’ Alliance, involving Brown Thomas, Arnotts and the Jervis and Ilac shopping centres.

DanDublin1982

Chuchote wrote: »

Is 'Dublin Town' a thing? London Town, yes; but I've never heard Dublin called anything but Dublin City.

Interesting board of directors http://www.wearedublintown.ie/who-we-are/staff-the-board/ from the first to the last

Everyone out my way calls the city centre 'town' (not Dublin Town mind, just town). I presume that's where they're coming from.

brocbrocach

DanDublin1982 wrote: »

Everyone out my way calls the city centre 'town' (not Dublin Town mind, just town). I presume that's where they're coming from.

Rollin down through Dublin town
Comin from the Northside headin southbound
The glare of the city .... da da da da da da

Spanish Eyes

My North Co. Dublin friends call it "going to Dublin". What!

It's going in to town dears.

Chuchote

DanDublin1982 wrote: »

Everyone out my way calls the city centre 'town' (not Dublin Town mind, just town). I presume that's where they're coming from.

Oh yes, it was always 'town'. In my youth the prosperous populace of Dalkey would hop on the Number 8 to 'go in to town' and shop for children's shoes in Bradley's in Nassau Street (free balloon! free foot X-ray where you could look at your bones without any fear of future cancers!), tweed jackets and yellow cotton string gloves in Switzer's in Grafton Street and coats in Collette Modes in George's Street, followed by a quick book shop in Hodges Figgis and a fresh salmon sandwich on thick batch bread and glass of Guinness (red lemonade for the sproglets) in Neary's, then back on the 8 and home.

But 'Dublin Town'? Sheesh!

monument

One councillor yesterday said cyclists should just dismount for the 450 metre pinch point!... http://irishcycle.com/2016/10/06/mixed-views-on-removing-cars-off-quays-for-bus-and-bicycle-priority/

Some fairly strong support for the project as well as it having its critics -- it was a mixed bag and that was not very clear from The Irish Times report.

Chuchote

monument wrote: »

One councillor yesterday said cyclists should just dismount for the 450 metre pinch point!... http://irishcycle.com/2016/10/06/mixed-views-on-removing-cars-off-quays-for-bus-and-bicycle-priority/

Some fairly strong support for the project as well as it having its critics -- it was a mixed bag and that was not very clear from The Irish Times report.

I dismount happily enough at pinch points, but if everyone were to do it it would be more like a clamp point for the cars following!

buffalo

Chuchote wrote: »

I dismount happily enough at pinch points, but if everyone were to do it it would be more like a clamp point for the cars following!

My only dismount points are where cyclists have not been considered - short-cuts through pedestrian zones, kissing gates along the canal, etc. It would be pretty ridiculous to build dedicated cycling infrastructure which didn't allow for cycling!

Chuchote

Deedsie wrote: »

What is the story with Irish political representatives...

We were stuck with two unconnected Luas lines for 13 years now they want to build a liffey cycle super highway with a 0.5 km gap in the middle where cyclists must dismount and walk. A pointless waste of time if they go with that route.

Infuriating :mad:

Where's the walkative gap in the middle? :eek:

monument wrote: »

DublinTown Board of Directors

• Ray Hernan, Chairman -- head of Arnotts, a Weston family company -- car park owners
• Ross McMahon, Company Secretary, David McMahon & Company
• Noel Flynn, Treasurer, FFA Chartered Accountants
• Paul Barry, McDonalds
• Philip Bergin, Penneys -- partly owned by a Weston family company
• Ciaran Tuite, The Ilac Centre -- car park owners
• Greg Devitt, Stephen’s Green Shopping Centre -- car park owners
• Rose Kenny, Dublin City Council
• Lorcan Lynch, The Flowing Tide
• Derek Mc Donnell, Jervis Shopping Centre -- car park owners
• Clare Tynan, Le Bon Crubeen/Celtic Lodge
• Lorcan O’Connor, Carrolls Gifts
• Vincent O’Gorman, The Westbury Hotel
• Stephen Sealey, Brown Thomas -- a Weston family company -- sell rights to car park to use their name
• Cól Campbell, Bewleys
• Alan Campbell, The Bankers Bar
• Cllr. Ciarán Cuffe, Dublin City Council
• Cllr. Mannix Flynn, Dublin City Council

Weston family also own the department store in Amsterdam which has held off further car restrictions there.

Ray Hernan was also Financial Officer at Brown Thomas, so he had that link before they took over Arnotts in the recent past. He has also held positions in Ryanair -- we know what that company's boss thinks of cyclists.

Just saying. Just some context behind the companies and names.

Hm

Eamonnator

I partook in a Red C Poll about this yesterday.
Even though I don't live in "Dublin Town", I gave this project my full support.
You're welcome!

magicbastarder

Deedsie wrote: »

We were stuck with two unconnected Luas lines for 13 years now

off topic, but there are valid concerns as to whether luas cross city is a good idea - whether it will inconvenience more bus users than it will 'convenience' luas users.

tomasrojo

magicbastarder wrote: »

off topic, but there are valid concerns as to whether luas cross city is a good idea - whether it will inconvenience more bus users than it will 'convenience' luas users.

Yeah, I live on the Green Line and have all my in-laws on the Red Line, so I'm very much in favour, but I've never looked into whether it's the upsides outweigh the downsides.

mcgratheoin

tomasrojo wrote: »

Yeah, I live on the Green Line and have all my in-laws on the Red Line, so I'm very much in favour, but I've never looked into whether it's the upsides outweigh the downsides.

In-laws on the other line, I assume that means you're in favour of keeping them separate?

monument

Eamonnator wrote: »

I partook in a Red C Poll about this yesterday.
Even though I don't live in "Dublin Town", I gave this project my full support.
You're welcome!

Do you remember how they phrased the question/s about the route and the detour?

magicbastarder wrote: »

off topic, but there are valid concerns as to whether luas cross city is a good idea - whether it will inconvenience more bus users than it will 'convenience' luas users.

I think the Luas could and maybe should have went around TCD but concerns are academic at this stage.

Eamonnator

monument wrote: »

Do you remember how they phrased the question/s about the route and the detour?.

They started off by asking how often I visited different shopping centres and shopping areas in Dublin.(Blanchardstown, Dundrum S.C., North City centre, South City centre etc.)
How often, I visited these places.
Then what mode of transport I used: bike, car, Luas, Dart, Bus, Train.
How often I used these.
I was shown a map of the proposed project.
I was asked how it would impact on my use of the area, would I visit the area more or less often.
A few more questions, that I can't remember.
There was a comment bit at the end, that I completed.

Carawaystick

monument wrote: »

I think the Luas could and maybe should have went around TCD but concerns are academic at this stage.

It does go around TCD. It sure doesn't go through it.



The college green plaza is a separate thing to the tram line. And it will impact on public transport.

Will there be any access for cyclists in the Liberties to get to the cycle route other than by Church st bridge or Military road?

Moflojo

Chuchote wrote: »

Dublin Town is a bunch of people who own car parks, yes?

This agglomeration of studies has some figures http://www.citylab.com/cityfixer/2015/03/the-complete-business-case-for-converting-street-parking-into-bike-lanes/387595/ including one on Dublin…

Further to Chuchote's excellent link above, here is the direct link to the Dublin study referenced therein, which is a report on shopper travel behaviour in Dublin city centre - specifically Grafton Street and Henry Street. One of the big takeaways from the study is how much the traders overestimated the value of car & Luas shoppers, and how much they underestimated bus, pedestrian and cycle shoppers.

http://arrow.dit.ie/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1010&context=comlinkoth

DublinTown purports to represent all business interests in Dublin city centre, including pubs, restaurants, and cafes - not just retailers. Given the data from the survey above, which suggests only around 10% of shoppers travel by car, one can assume that an even lower percentage of those coming to the city centre for pubs, restaurants and cafes travel by car.

In conclusion, >90% of the customers for businesses that DublinTown represents are not travelling into the city by car, but DublinTown will be damned if those travelling by car are inconvenienced in any way.

Oh, and the fact that >30% of DublinTown's board members have vested interests in private car parks is completely irrelevant. Are you guys trying to suggest some kind of bias?