Russia`s return to faith

realitykeeper

Unlike the west which seems to have gone astray, Russia is returning to God in a big way. Every year in Russia, dozens of new churches are now being built and still the demand for more churches is not keeping up with the supply. But 100 years ago, why did Russia go astray in the first place and what lessons could we in Ireland learn from Russia`s experience?

Back in the time of the Romanov`s the notorious monk Rasputin was a hate figure among Russians and at the same time many ordinary Russian peasants looked on in envy at the wealth of others, especially the aristocracy. This envy lead to revolt which devastated Russia. Churches were destroyed, private property was seized by the state and in the end even the peasants lost everything. Their little farms were taken and they were put to work on large collectives, vast expanses none of which they could claim as their own. In other words, they had become slaves.

The scandals in the Catholic Church in Ireland are no more a reason to punish God than the scandals around Rasputin in Russia a hundred years ago. Crony capitalism is perhaps comparable with the incompetent governance of the Tsar Nicholas II in that is is both foolish, unjust and in time it will become a source of outrage. However, the envious seizing of goods and property will not lead to anything good. This has not happened yet but an upheaval in some guise will happen I believe when the foolish experiment of monetary stimulus ends in failure throughout the entire western world.

Russia is returning to God with good reason. It has learned through bitter experience that life without God is horrible. Previous generations of Irish held tightly to their faith despite oppression and persecution. I believe, this faithless generation will pay a fair price for abandoning God and the values of our past.

solodeogloria

Good morning!

Russia unfortunately is passing legislation preventing Christians from meeting outside churches and sharing their faith with others. There was a good article on Christianity Today about this.

It is too simplistic to say that Russia is more Christian than the West. What is actually true is that Russia is giving cultural privilege to the Orthodox Church for its own selfish cultural aims at the expense of other Christians.

Yesterday, Russia’s new anti-terrorism laws, which restrict Christians from evangelizing outside of their churches, went into effect.

The “Yarovaya package” requires missionaries to have permits, makes house churches illegal, and limits religious activity to registered church buildings, among other restrictions. Individuals who disobey could be fined up to $780, while organizations could be fined more than $15,000.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Cabaal

Yes, indeed Russia is getting more religious.
But the knock on effects of that is the church was happy to see the anti-gay laws being passed.
Laws that mean gay people are treated as lesser human beings then everyone else, anyone proud of such laws is utter scum.

As for Ireland, the "faithful generation" paid a very heavy price for trusting the church.
Women were stripped of equality for decades many of them effectively treated as slaves by the church, baby's were sold, children were rapped and gay people were treated as criminals.

All the above with the full knowledge of mother church,

solodeogloria

Cabaal wrote: »

Yes, indeed Russia is getting more religious.
But the knock on effects of that is the church was happy to see the anti-gay laws being passed.
Laws that mean gay people are treated as lesser human beings then everyone else, anyone proud of such laws is utter scum.

As for Ireland, the "faithful generation" paid a very heavy price for trusting the church.
Women were stripped of equality for decades many of them effectively treated as slaves by the church, baby's were sold, children were rapped and gay people were treated as criminals.

All the above with the full knowledge of mother church,

Good morning!

I agree. There was a horrible programme on Channel 4 last year about how LGBT people are actively lynched and beaten by organised set ups through using dating apps and social media. It was truly heartbreaking stuff.

I agree with you about Ireland too.

The mistake is assuming that Jesus taught these things. He didn't. He taught us how to pray and love people. Even people who we disagree with or people who hate Christians. It's a shame that we don't learn from our Lord.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Cabaal

solodeogloria wrote: »

The mistake is assuming that Jesus taught these things. He didn't. He taught us how to pray and love people. Even people who we disagree with or people who hate Christians. It's a shame that we don't learn from our Lord.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

I suppose the underlying issue is every church is actually incapable of preaching gods word, because people are imperfect

If jesus is god and jesus teaches stuff that humans are supposed to teach to others, the problem is that humans are not perfect so they can never perfectly get this message across.

In the case of the catholic church in Ireland and the church in Russia it seems they are only capable of preaching while at the same time hurting people and causing suffering, it seems with preaching comes the need to mark others as evil (be it women as witches, single mothers as sinful, gays as sinful etc)

solodeogloria

Good afternoon!

I guess that's the crux. Instead of primarily writing people off as sinners we should be striving for people to repent and be restored if they are Christians. That's a key part of caring for people. It's something I need and it's something that all Christians need in daily life.

Those last six words are key, because the church should have no interest in judging the world outside but simply to make Christ accessible to the world outside without compromising the gospel. Christians still believe the same things about marriage (Matthew 19), we believe that men and women are different and equal in God's sight (Genesis 1:26-27) but that is no excuse for the horrible behaviour that others have experienced both in Ireland and Russia.

However, that isn't a reason to write off Jesus and what He says either.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Nick Park

As a committed Christian, I don't see Russia's 'return to faith' as anything to be celebrated. The Orthodox Church appears to be legitimising Putin in whipping up nationalism and persecuting minorities.

Give me a good old secular country any day of the week!

recedite

Ah yes, this was predicted in the second secret of Fatima.

realitykeeper

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good morning!

Russia unfortunately is passing legislation preventing Christians from meeting outside churches and sharing their faith with others. There was a good article on Christianity Today about this.

It is too simplistic to say that Russia is more Christian than the West. What is actually true is that Russia is giving cultural privilege to the Orthodox Church for its own selfish cultural aims at the expense of other Christians.



Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Well this country experienced the penal laws to suppress Catholicism. Still, starving people risked their lives to attend mass in the freezing cold and pouring rain to practice their faith. I am sympathetic toward the Russian Orthodox Church and in any case why preach to Christians in Russia when their are so many atheists in the secular western world and indeed people of other faith(s) who have been radicalized by hate mongers.

Giacomo McGubbin

realitykeeper wrote: »

Well this country experienced the penal laws to suppress Catholicism. Still, starving people risks their lives to attend mass in the freezing cold and pouring rain to practice their faith. I am sympathetic toward the Russian Orthodox Church and in any case why preach to Christians in Russia when their are so many atheists in the secular western world and indeed people of other faith(s) who have been radicalized by hate mongers.

Russian Orthodox Catholics and the Russian Orthodox Church also suffered horribly under Communism. They are currently being politically used and infiltrated by Putin and his cronies, as are many other institutions in Russia, including the Olympics. Any Church, institution, or ideology can be misused for bad rather than good. Stalin would approve of the current twist for political gain. Of course it's suit certain agenda's to ignore the infiltration and political misuse of that Church and claim the Church itself is evil.

realitykeeper

Cabaal wrote: »

Yes, indeed Russia is getting more religious.
But the knock on effects of that is the church was happy to see the anti-gay laws being passed.
Laws that mean gay people are treated as lesser human beings then everyone else, anyone proud of such laws is utter scum.

As for Ireland, the "faithful generation" paid a very heavy price for trusting the church.
Women were stripped of equality for decades many of them effectively treated as slaves by the church, baby's were sold, children were rapped and gay people were treated as criminals.

All the above with the full knowledge of mother church,

With regard to your first point, Russia did not ban homosexuality. What they banned was the practice of homosexuality. A gay celibate has nothing to fear in Russia and the bible does indicate that sodomy is a sin. Of course, all sex originates from original sin but the difference is heterosexual sex also has a non sinful purpose. I do think there is room for understanding but tolerance needs to be kept on a tight leash, we`ve seen where that slippery slop has brought us in this country.

Regarding your second point, I repeat the sins of the Church ought not be visited on God. God is good even if the Church isn`t always so.

Manach

Given the unquestioning acceptance that Russia has had of Western ideas in the past and the subsequent results, perhaps it is understandable that they will step aside this new wave of societal engineering.

4068ac1elhodqr

recedite wrote: »

Ah yes, this was predicted in the second secret of Fatima.

Found these slightly vague, Baba Vanga (the blind Bulgarian clairvoyant) also has a few ideas which seem fairly accurate so far and fairly specific. They're probably along the same lines anyway regarding the rise of the great bear.

realitykeeper

Nick Park wrote: »

As a committed Christian, I don't see Russia's 'return to faith' as anything to be celebrated. The Orthodox Church appears to be legitimising Putin in whipping up nationalism and persecuting minorities.

Give me a good old secular country any day of the week!

Western media seem to have it in for Putin but I think Putin is only reacting to western provocation. By my reckoning he is essentially a good man. Western suspicion is an ugly trait. Why is it so hard to believe that Russians are good and decent people. This persecution you speak of is no more than the strict adherence to the faith and in some cases it is simply punishing crimes such as vandalism of sacred places.

I am all in favor of mercy but it is the wanton disrespect and blatant disregard of morality that is being punished. The humble do not behave in such ways.

Giacomo McGubbin

realitykeeper wrote: »

I am all in favor of mercy but it is the wanton disrespect and blatant disregard of morality that is being punished. The humble do not behave in such ways.

Are the humble former KGB Lt Lieutenant colonel's, who make themselves unopposed Prime minster and President for 18 years ?
The same guy would have been quite happy to exterminate every living Christian in Russia if at the time it was politically advantageous enough.

realitykeeper

Manach wrote: »

Given the unquestioning acceptance that Russia has had of Western ideas in the past and the subsequent results, perhaps it is understandable that they will step aside this new wave of societal engineering.

An interesting point. My view is that Russians have had their fill of westernization and now it is time to leave that behind and move forward. The Russian Orthodox Church is leading the way, I think that is a good thing.

realitykeeper

Giacomo McGubbin wrote: »

Are the humble former KGB Lt Lieutenant colonel's, who make themselves unopposed Prime minster and President for 18 years ?
The same guy would have been quite happy to exterminate every living Christian in Russia if at the time it was politically advantageous enough.

Putin is a good Christian. Western democracy is not the only way to run a country and while such regimes may have had it all their own way in the past, that does not mean they will be seen as a shining example in the future.

Giacomo McGubbin

realitykeeper wrote: »

Putin is a good Christian.

Ah here, go and try and take a hand at someone else.

We're not as stupid on this forum as you'd like to think.

realitykeeper

Giacomo McGubbin wrote: »

Ah here, go and try and take a hand at someone else.

We're not as stupid on this forum as you'd like to think.

Why is that so hard to believe that Putin is Christian. Western prejudice and manipulation may have shaped your opinions but it really is not that difficult to be discernible.

feargale

realitykeeper wrote: »

Why is that so hard to believe that Putin is Christian. Western prejudice and manipulation may have shaped your opinions but it really is not that difficult to be discernible.

For the same reason as the murderous usurper Franco calling himself a Christian invites more than a grain of salt.

The Russian Orthodox Church has always sided with the tyrant, the Tsars ( including Ivan the Terrible, ) the Communists and now Putin.

solodeogloria

realitykeeper wrote: »

Well this country experienced the penal laws to suppress Catholicism. Still, starving people risked their lives to attend mass in the freezing cold and pouring rain to practice their faith. I am sympathetic toward the Russian Orthodox Church and in any case why preach to Christians in Russia when their are so many atheists in the secular western world and indeed people of other faith(s) who have been radicalized by hate mongers.

Good morning!

The Penal laws were also wrong.

This legislation doesn't only prevent evangelism, it restricts Christian worship in peoples homes which is a violation of freedom of religion.

I agree with Nick, I'd rather live in a secular country.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Cabaal

realitykeeper wrote: »

With regard to your first point, Russia did not ban homosexuality. What they banned was the practice of homosexuality. A gay celibate has nothing to fear in Russia and the bible does indicate that sodomy is a sin.

Once again we see the Christians obsession with all things anal, its getting very weird at this stage
Never see those lesbians as sinful do you not?
:rolleyes:

A person being gay has everything to fear in Russia, they can be beaten by random people on the street and the Police will not give a monkey's, they can be sacked from jobs for being gay (seems to be a familiar theme as catholic schools in Ireland could technically do that until recently).

This is about oppression of a minority nothing more, the fact you're trying to claim its all fine and dandy to be gay in Russia is laughable.


.

I do think there is room for understanding but tolerance needs to be kept on a tight leash, we`ve seen where that slippery slop has brought us in this country..

That understanding is very clearly...you can be gay, but you can never have gay sex or only call yourself gay for fear of loosing your job or being beaten.

You've shown no tolerance or understanding so I'm not sure what sort of point you're trying to make here, the slope we went down in Ireland was the slope of the church treating people like scum....just like its happy to do in Russia when its suits its agenda.

I would be interested to know exactly what is the slippery slope you're referring to in Ireland that we;ve gone done? Is it perhaps marriage equality and decriminalisation of gay people?

realitykeeper

Cabaal wrote: »

I would be interested to know exactly what is the slippery slope you're referring to in Ireland that we;ve gone done? Is it perhaps marriage equality and decriminalisation of gay people?

I am referring to the full shebang. I recall when this whole liberal thing started, Ireland was a conservative country but RTE for example would televise a panel of off the wall liberals from the fringes of society a put one ordinary person in the middle and the whole lot of them would gang up on the one normal ordinary everyday type of conservative person on the panel.

Then you had the farce of the government spending hundreds of thousands in taxpayers money promoting the pro divorce side in the divorce referendum.

People were brainwashed into this liberal mindset.

realitykeeper

feargale wrote: »

For the same reason as the murderous usurper Franco calling himself a Christian invites more than a grain of salt.

The Russian Orthodox Church has always sided with the tyrant, the Tsars ( including Ivan the Terrible, ) the Communists and now Putin.

Christ used violence in the temple when people were using it for trade. Nowadays we see churches being turned into discos and houses and mosques. Such illicit use of the house of God is surely sinful, is it not?

Mancomb Seepgood

realitykeeper wrote: »

Christ used violence in the temple when people were using it for trade. Nowadays we see churches being turned into discos and houses and mosques. Such illicit use of the house of God is surely sinful, is it not?

How is it sinful? If a church is no longer being used, it is merely a building, and it's owners are entitled to sell it on.

The attraction that Putin holds for some people really baffles me. Rigged media and elections, opposition figures locked up and murdered, Catholics and Protestants blocked from fully exercising their freedom of religion, gay people cruelly demonised and beaten up,, how can this be anyone's idea of a "Christian leader"?

Nick Park

realitykeeper wrote: »

Christ used violence in the temple when people were using it for trade. Nowadays we see churches being turned into discos and houses and mosques. Such illicit use of the house of God is surely sinful, is it not?

No, it isn't.

If churches cannot attract enough people to keep their doors open then the buildings have to be used for something else. They choose to sell their buildings to the highest bidder, as is their right.

Meanwhile, all over Ireland hundreds of churches are renting or buying warehouses, factories etc and turning them into church buildings.

The 'house of God' is made up of people. Buildings are just heaps of bricks and mortar. Useful when a congregation needs a roof over their head, but that's all.

Cabaal

realitykeeper wrote: »

I am referring to the full shebang. I recall when this whole liberal thing started, Ireland was a conservative country but RTE for example would televise a panel of off the wall liberals from the fringes of society a put one ordinary person in the middle and the whole lot of them would gang up on the one normal ordinary everyday type of conservative person on the panel.

Then you had the farce of the government spending hundreds of thousands in taxpayers money promoting the pro divorce side in the divorce referendum.

People were brainwashed into this liberal mindset.

Your posts are comedy gold, keep them coming.

I'd take modern day Ireland over the crimes and abuses carried out in the name of the Catholic church throughout the 1950's, 60's, 70's, 80's etc any day of the week. Lets not forget the Vatican knew about these crimes and all they did was cover up to protect mother church.

There's nothing wrong with divorce, for example only a complete idiot thinks an abusive relationship should stay together no matter what. I'd rather see an divorce happen in such a situation then forcing a couple to remain together so the women (or man) can be abused on a weekly or daily basis.

Should we perhaps could back to the good old times in the 1970's when a husband could legally rape his wife, those were the good old days eh?
:rolleyes:

Cabaal

Mancomb Seepgood wrote: »

The attraction that Putin holds for some people really baffles me. Rigged media and elections, opposition figures locked up and murdered, Catholics and Protestants blocked from fully exercising their freedom of religion, gay people cruelly demonised and beaten up,, how can this be anyone's idea of a "Christian leader"?

Good christian leaders also hide billions don't you know,

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2016/apr/03/panama-papers-money-hidden-offshore

Mancomb Seepgood

Cabaal wrote: »

Good christian leaders also hide billions don't you know,

I'd forgotten about that, it makes me wish I'd learnt to play the cello.

ScumLord

Back in the time of the Romanov`s the notorious monk Rasputin was a hate figure among Russians and at the same time many ordinary Russian peasants looked on in envy at the wealth of others, especially the aristocracy. This envy lead to revolt which devastated Russia. Churches were destroyed, private property was seized by the state and in the end even the peasants lost everything. Their little farms were taken and they were put to work on large collectives, vast expanses none of which they could claim as their own. In other words, they had become slaves.

Russia went through a social upheaval, as did most of Europe at that time. While Russia tried out communism, we tried out fascism. The industrial world encouraged people to stand up to long standing elites, it was the breakdown of monarchies. There's no doubt it was a huge mistake to go communist, now they've moved to a secular, capitalist, democracy as it's shown it's the best system we've come up with to date in Europe and the states. Russia is more interested in it's economics than its links to religions.

Russia also has Europe's largest Muslim population and Putin was on hand to open one of the largest Mosques in Europe. He's promoting he's own image as much as anything, probably taking a leaf from Trumps book and latching onto religious voters.

1123heavy

realitykeeper wrote: »

But 100 years ago, why did Russia go astray in the first place and what lessons could we in Ireland learn from Russia`s experience?

I don't know but I see no relevance to Ireland whatsoever, let alone "lessons" to be learnt, unless someone is secretly planning to turn the country red ...

I just come across

Putin is a good Christian

I am not Christian. Though I believe I have a good enough understanding of what a "good" Christian is. I am concerned, very concerned in fact, if you believe Putin can be classed as one. What did you make of Hitler? He was also a Christian ... was he a "good" one too ... ???!

BoatMad

A gay celibate has nothing to fear in Russia and the bible does indicate that sodomy is a sin. Of course, all sex originates from original sin but the difference is heterosexual sex also has a non sinful purpose. I do think there is room for understanding but tolerance needs to be kept on a tight leash, we`ve seen where that slippery slop has brought us in this country.

I love the idea that a definition that inherently reflects a sexual activity is fine as long as you dont actually engage in it .

rather like banning motoring and saying motorists have nothing to fear as long as they dont drive !!!!

the mental contortions you undertake to justify these positions must leave you breathless with exertion ( or should )

realitykeeper

Cabaal wrote: »

I'd take modern day Ireland over the crimes and abuses carried out in the name of the Catholic church throughout the 1950's, 60's, 70's, 80's etc any day of the week.

... and thats another thing. Why did the media single out the Catholic Church when they could just have easily have identified every plumber child abuser in the country and made the plumbing community a pack of pariahs ... or the butchering profession, or the dentists or the panel beaters? Why just priests?

realitykeeper

1123heavy wrote: »

I don't know but I see no relevance to Ireland whatsoever, let alone "lessons" to be learnt, unless someone is secretly planning to turn the country red ...

Perhaps I should explain, I do believe the west will turn Communist because people will wrongly blame capitalism when the QE experiment fails next year. Most normal people will say they do not want Communism in this country but if a devastating economic implosion were to disrupt life as we know it in Ireland, then public opinion could take a radical lurch to the left.

ScumLord

realitykeeper wrote: »

... and thats another thing. Why did the media single out the Catholic Church when they could just have easily have identified every plumber child abuser in the country and made the plumbing community a pack of pariahs ... or the butchering profession, or the dentists or the panel beaters? Why just priests?

Because those aren't organisations. If a butcher rapes a child the butcher association doesn't make moves to cover it up and get the offending butcher to a new location where they can start all over again without fear of consequences. The church protected the people they knew where abusing children, that makes the entire organisation complicit.

realitykeeper wrote: »

Perhaps I should explain, I do believe the west will turn Communist because people will wrongly blame capitalism when the QE experiment fails next year. Most normal people will say they do not want Communism in this country but if a devastating economic implosion were to disrupt life as we know it in Ireland, then public opinion could take a radical lurch to the left.

No it wouldn't. That's about as likely as us all becoming Muslims.

BoatMad

realitykeeper wrote: »

... and thats another thing. Why did the media single out the Catholic Church when they could just have easily have identified every plumber child abuser in the country and made the plumbing community a pack of pariahs ... or the butchering profession, or the dentists or the panel beaters? Why just priests?

because priests unlike plumbers are or were accorded significant social status in ireland and given unrestricted access to children ( unlike plumbers ) and then subsequently they severely abused that status and by and large escaped legal punishment as well.

Thats why they were singled out , and very rightly so.

BoatMad

realitykeeper wrote: »

Perhaps I should explain, I do believe the west will turn Communist because people will wrongly blame capitalism when the QE experiment fails next year. Most normal people will say they do not want Communism in this country but if a devastating economic implosion were to disrupt life as we know it in Ireland, then public opinion could take a radical lurch to the left.

you are just making this stuff up , now I see,

1123heavy

realitykeeper wrote: »

Perhaps I should explain, I do believe the west will turn Communist because people will wrongly blame capitalism when the QE experiment fails next year. Most normal people will say they do not want Communism in this country but if a devastating economic implosion were to disrupt life as we know it in Ireland, then public opinion could take a radical lurch to the left.

Cool bud ... can I man the Galway south Gulag division? :pac::pac::pac:

Mancomb Seepgood

realitykeeper wrote: »

... and thats another thing. Why did the media single out the Catholic Church when they could just have easily have identified every plumber child abuser in the country and made the plumbing community a pack of pariahs ... or the butchering profession, or the dentists or the panel beaters? Why just priests?

No fair-minded person would blame all priests for the abuse scandals within the Catholic Church. However, church institutions are rightly blamed for covering up the abuse and moving the perpetrators around.

A couple of posts ago you effectively hand-waved away the impact of genuine religious persecution such as the penal laws which I'd have thought most would have seen as a much greater affront to Catholics than some largely deserved media attention.

solodeogloria

realitykeeper wrote: »

Perhaps I should explain, I do believe the west will turn Communist because people will wrongly blame capitalism when the QE experiment fails next year. Most normal people will say they do not want Communism in this country but if a devastating economic implosion were to disrupt life as we know it in Ireland, then public opinion could take a radical lurch to the left.

Good afternoon,

Communism? The left is in the dog house across Europe.

In Britain the most right wing government since Margaret Thatcher are leading the march to Brexit. Just look at what's coming out of the Tory conference in Birmingham. Labour doesn't look like it will win an election.

In France Sarkosy is wooing the right with anti-Islamic rhetoric.

In Germany right wing Alternativ für Deutschland have seats in 10 federal parliaments and are set for at least some in the Reichstag.

In Hungary they have voted overwhelmingly against refugee quotas.

In Spain the charismatic leader of Podemos has been ousted by his party.

QE affects the whole of the Eurozone because it is done from Frankfurt. Why would it move to the left when no other country seems to be?

Christianity isn't right or left wing. It is more radical. We follow a King who isn't of this world.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

BoatMad

Christianity isn't right or left wing. It is more radical. We follow a King who isn't of this world.

of course Kings actually exist

solodeogloria

BoatMad wrote: »

of course Kings actually exist

Good evening!

Forgive me but I don't quite see your point

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Cabaal

realitykeeper wrote: »

... and thats another thing. Why did the media single out the Catholic Church when they could just have easily have identified every plumber child abuser in the country and made the plumbing community a pack of pariahs ... or the butchering profession, or the dentists or the panel beaters? Why just priests?

Are you aware of a plumber or butcher society that actively came up with rules and moved plumbers or butchers around to hide the abuse done by plumbers or butchers in a very systematic nature? I'm not, nor is anyone else

The Catholic church don't get singled out, They get mentioned because they had a system that they created to ensure that the victims were sworn to silence and the abusers went on to other areas of the country to just abuse more victims. It was all to protect them, their money and their image.

It was a system the Vatican knew about, this wasn't just the local priest and the bishop then trying to cover up one priest. This was the whole system trying to cover up abuse carried out by priests around the wrodl and even the pope knew it was happening.

Then when the catholic church was found out they denied it all and claimed people made the whole thing up to discredit the church and look for money.

The Catholic church as an entire organization from the top abused the trust of the people in countless country's, outside of the abuse that its priests and nuns carried out it has also been happy to lobby for backward laws and to discriminate against minority groups when it suits their agenda.

BoatMad

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

Forgive me but I don't quite see your point

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

I was making a point that religion isn't really there, kings , I can see them , Gods on the other hand are notoriously shy creatures to the point of invisibility !!!!

Delirium

BoatMad wrote: »

of course Kings actually exist

BoatMad wrote: »

I was making a point that religion isn't really there, kings , I can see them , Gods on the other hand are notoriously shy creatures to the point of invisibility !!!!

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Thanks for your attention.

feargale

realitykeeper wrote: »

Christ used violence in the temple when people were using it for trade. Nowadays we see churches being turned into discos and houses and mosques. Such illicit use of the house of God is surely sinful, is it not?

I don't go searching for sin under every cabbage plant. You seem to see sin where your church doesn't see it, e.g. where deconsecrated places of worship are turned to secular use or voluntarily, sometimes very generously, given over to other creeds.
I would see as worse than sinful the forcible conversion of places of worship contrary to people's wishes e.g.
1. the conversion of pre-Christian wells into holy wells;
2. the Pantheon of Rome becoming a place of Christian worship;
3. the conversion of a Buddhist temple into Hanoi's cathedral.

realitykeeper wrote: »

Putin is a good Christian

"There is no such thing as a former KGB man." - Putin

One of the most important elements of a free society is the ability to criticize the established powers without fear of retribution by those powers. Russia is particularly bad when it comes to jailing people that are vocal about their displeasure with government (and Mr. Putin in particular).

realitykeeper wrote: »

Western democracy is not the only way to run a country and while such regimes may have had it all their own way in the past, that does not mean they will be seen as a shining example in the future.

Please tell us what system you have in mind as an alternative to democracy.

lazybones32

realitykeeper wrote: »

Unlike the west which seems to have gone astray, Russia is returning to God in a big way. Every year in Russia, dozens of new churches are now being built and still the demand for more churches is not keeping up with the supply. But 100 years ago, why did Russia go astray in the first place and what lessons could we in Ireland learn from Russia`s experience?

Back in the time of the Romanov`s the notorious monk Rasputin was a hate figure among Russians and at the same time many ordinary Russian peasants looked on in envy at the wealth of others, especially the aristocracy. This envy lead to revolt which devastated Russia. Churches were destroyed, private property was seized by the state and in the end even the peasants lost everything. Their little farms were taken and they were put to work on large collectives, vast expanses none of which they could claim as their own. In other words, they had become slaves.

The scandals in the Catholic Church in Ireland are no more a reason to punish God than the scandals around Rasputin in Russia a hundred years ago. Crony capitalism is perhaps comparable with the incompetent governance of the Tsar Nicholas II in that is is both foolish, unjust and in time it will become a source of outrage. However, the envious seizing of goods and property will not lead to anything good. This has not happened yet but an upheaval in some guise will happen I believe when the foolish experiment of monetary stimulus ends in failure throughout the entire western world.

Russia is returning to God with good reason. It has learned through bitter experience that life without God is horrible. Previous generations of Irish held tightly to their faith despite oppression and persecution. I believe, this faithless generation will pay a fair price for abandoning God and the values of our past.

I think it's a very good thing that the Gospel is being allowed move through Russia again. There is nothing else that can bring some good out of the tremendous sufferings of those people or can bring any real healing to their historic pain.

I kind of hold Germany responsible for some of where Russia went wrong - to take them out of the WWI, the German's ferried a dangerous man into Russia to stir up trouble and undermine them from within. For all the anti-Russian sentiment on this thread, the German's get no mention despite 2 World Wars and facilitating the rise of Communism...but I digress.

What can we learn from their experience? Nothing. We, as a Nation, enjoyed under 2 decades of prosperity and we'll be in debt for how long because of it? Already there are signs of the same oul stuff happening again, so you'll forgive me if I have little optimism about our ability to learn from others mistakes if we can't even learn from our own.

realitykeeper

BoatMad wrote: »

of course Kings actually exist

Nobody said they didn`t.

Delirium

realitykeeper wrote: »

Nobody said they didn`t.

MOD NOTE

lets not return to that off-topic tangent please.

Thanks for your attention.

beauf

Cabaal wrote: »

Are you aware of a plumber or butcher society that actively came up with rules and moved plumbers or butchers around to hide the abuse done by plumbers or butchers in a very systematic nature? I'm not, nor is anyone else

..

The Catholic church as an entire organization from the top abused the trust of the people in countless country's, outside of the abuse that its priests and nuns carried out it has also been happy to lobby for backward laws and to discriminate against minority groups when it suits their agenda.

It's impossible to defend the actions of the church here so I won't go there.

Your comparison is flawed as there isn't any organisation of tradesmen with that level of organisation or influence. If you look at an organisation that does, something like the police. Then you do find it also has systematic corruption and turned a blind eye to many abuses.

There are abuses where people have position of power like teaching or sports clubs, medicine, etc. But they don't have the power or influences at the larger scale.

Whatever about the historical actions of the church. It's abdication of its moral obligations in recent years, and abuse of its power, can't be overlooked.

I'm not sure what is happening in Russia, did the pope not say mass to mostly empty stadiums recently? I would be suspicious of the states involvement. I've not read much about it though.

realitykeeper

Nick Park wrote: »

No, it isn't.

If churches cannot attract enough people to keep their doors open then the buildings have to be used for something else. They choose to sell their buildings to the highest bidder, as is their right.

Meanwhile, all over Ireland hundreds of churches are renting or buying warehouses, factories etc and turning them into church buildings.

The 'house of God' is made up of people. Buildings are just heaps of bricks and mortar. Useful when a congregation needs a roof over their head, but that's all.

If a church can bring in people when it is used as a disco or a pub then the absence of people is not the reason people are not using the church for its original intended purpose. The people are choosing to use it for trade instead of worship. The matter of market forces and consumer demand did not deter Christ from beating traders in the temple 2000 years ago, so why do you suppose Christ not do the same if he walked the earth today?