Merging onto motorway

Commotion Ocean

Whose responsibility is it for motorway merging?

Is it the responsibility of the driver merging to merge or is it the responsibility of the person already on the motorway to facilitate the merge by slowing down to the merger's speed or to move into the outside lane temporarily to let the person in?

When I'm driving along, I normally trot along at an "indicated" 120 / 130 km/h.

If I'm driving where there are other vehicles on front of me, I'll leave a gap between me and the vehicle on front for braking distance and to facilitate a merge for the merging vehicles.

However, when driving at night or very early morning, the traffic is sparse and there are often no other vehicles on front of me and there are often other vehicles that try to merge, more often than not, they are not getting up to motorway speed, they seem to be driving along without checking mirrors or blind spots.

One situation happened where I continued on at 120 and I didn't ease off, and the person trying to merge at what seemed to be 60/70 km/h put on the hazards as I came up behind them and moved into the hard shoulder.

When I was 100 metres or so ahead, I looked into the rear view mirror, and saw that the person was trying to pull out into the lane again !! Straight out ..... not building up speed in the hard shoulder, just pulling straight out.

I'm sure the drivers behind them had skid mars of more than one kind, with heavy hands on the horn.

If a crash had have happened because I didn't ease off the accelerator initially to allow the person to merge, could I be held responsible for directly or indirectly causing a crash?

macplaxton

The chump joining.

Shifting over is just a courtesy if it's safe to do so.

The person on the slip has 4 options: to get the boot down to get in front, ease off and fall in behind, use the shoulder or stop dead.

Regardless of all the above I just do whatever I need to avoid a collision.

doolox

...happens to me all the time on the M4 and M50. People trying to merge onto 100 kph motorways at 60 or 70 kph and I am the victim behind them trying not to be killed by the prevailing traffic which is usually doing.......oh.....100kph as you are allowed to do.

The only trick is to slow really down and open up a space in front of you and just behind the slow person then floor it and get up to the required speed to slip out into the faster lane and get by the slow driver. Using the space created as a runway and hoping the guy in the faster lane does not also accelerate to stop you getting out.....it happens.

Slow drivers can be just as dangerous as fast drivers on our motorways and should be brought to task. Trouble is that the powers that be will not take responsibility for causing timid or unskilled or inconfident drivers to go faster than they think they can go. The rest of the motoring population have to put up with the antics of our slow drivers and need to keep our eyes on the road ahead at all times. Hence there are no minimum speed limits, only a prohibition on vehicles Designed to go at 50 kph or less....you can actually do less than 50 kph if you want but it would be suicide to do so in reality.

Fast drivers can be just as vexatious because a driver cannot swerve into an available fast lane as fast as he may need to because of the need to account for the presence of overly fast drivers especially bikes on our motorways. That vital second or so needed to check ALL mirrors and account for blind spots means you probably have ran into the slow driver before you can avoid him or you have to slam on the brakes....damaging your car and tyres, giving a heart attack to the guy behind you and then having to waste fuel accelerating up to running speed after you have passed the slow driver and left him behind.

colm_mcm

All the driver already on the motorway should be doing is keeping an appropriate distance from the car (also on the motorway) in front. Everything else is up to the driver merging. Some people are afraid of revving their engine beyond 3000rpm.

Kings Inns or bust

doolox wrote: »

...happens to me all the time on the M4 and M50. People trying to merge onto 100 kph motorways at 60 or 70 kph and I am the victim behind them trying not to be killed by the prevailing traffic which is usually doing.......oh.....100kph as you are allowed to do.

The only trick is to slow really down and open up a space in front of you and just behind the slow person then floor it and get up to the required speed to slip out into the faster lane and get by the slow driver. Using the space created as a runway and hoping the guy in the faster lane does not also accelerate to stop you getting out.....it happens.

Slow drivers can be just as dangerous as fast drivers on our motorways and should be brought to task. Trouble is that the powers that be will not take responsibility for causing timid or unskilled or inconfident drivers to go faster than they think they can go. The rest of the motoring population have to put up with the antics of our slow drivers and need to keep our eyes on the road ahead at all times. Hence there are no minimum speed limits, only a prohibition on vehicles Designed to go at 50 kph or less....you can actually do less than 50 kph if you want but it would be suicide to do so in reality.

Fast drivers can be just as vexatious because a driver cannot swerve into an available fast lane as fast as he may need to because of the need to account for the presence of overly fast drivers especially bikes on our motorways. That vital second or so needed to check ALL mirrors and account for blind spots means you probably have ran into the slow driver before you can avoid him or you have to slam on the brakes....damaging your car and tyres, giving a heart attack to the guy behind you and then having to waste fuel accelerating up to running speed after you have passed the slow driver and left him behind.

I caught absolute hell (somewhat deservedly) from a very dodgy looking guy on the slip road joining the M50 one day. I beeped (what I assume) was his partner (driving) in a large Audi diesel pottering down the slip at no more than 60-70KPH. I should, of course, of taken your advice and slowed down to open a gap but there was traffic behind me.

People regularly fail to take into account not all cars have decent acceleration and some of us are reliant on getting a bit of run up! Of course again only where you can see a gap is going to be there. I drove back from Cork today and some boy racer in the outside lane was very courteous indeed in letting me back out after I pulled back in to let him past and he hadn't taken the opportunity to go by quite fast enough.

As I'm fond of saying I'll take someone going a bit fast any paying attention over someone driving 'safely' and not paying attention. I'm not quoting to agree btw rather than disagree.

CiniO

colm_mcm wrote: »

All the driver already on the motorway should be doing is keeping an appropriate distance from the car (also on the motorway) in front. Everything else is up to the driver merging. Some people are afraid of revving their engine beyond 3000rpm.

You must admit though, that moving over to overtaking lane to facilitate other drivers to merge is quite a good custom, and very often crucial on busy motorways to actually make merging possible.
I don't think there are any laws in any country which would indicate obligation to do so, but it's common practice (especially on the Continent) and without it driving on motorway would be hardly possible.

allthedoyles

You change lanes to allow merge if it is safe to do so , other than that it is up to the merger to find his own spot on the motorway ( IMO )

Kings Inns or bust

CiniO wrote: »

You must admit though, that moving over to overtaking lane to facilitate other drivers to merge is quite a good custom, and very often crucial on busy motorways to actually make merging possible.
I don't think there are any laws in any country which would indicate obligation to do so, but it's common practice (especially on the Continent) and without it driving on motorway would be hardly possible.

I don't know if I agree tbh.

The M50 is a prime example - people don't use the inside lane as they don't want to move between lanes, it's a constant annoyance for many. Additionally, while it rarely happens to me the wife has been forced to stay over or undertaken as she potters along at around the speed limit.

It would be far better to educate people how to merge, and have long merging lanes to facilitate people matching speed and slipping in. Going back to people not paying attention though, it's difficult to do this when both parties are texting, entertaining kids or the various other things people do rather than driving the bloody car.

visual

When the slow driver doodles down slip at busy times there is often half dozen cars held up behind them.

Car in left lane on motorway can't move to lane 2 because everyone is driving bumper to bumper in middle lane so slows the gap behind them decrease making it even more difficult for remaining cars on slip to merge.

All this stems from Garda only in forcing speeding and ignoring very poor driving to such a extent a lot now believe driving in middle lane is correct at all times

Seth Brundle

visual wrote: »

All this stems from Garda only in forcing speeding and ignoring very poor driving to such a extent a lot now believe driving in middle lane is correct at all times

I disagree. I think people's poor driving skills is a combination of ignorance and selfishness

visual

kbannon wrote: »

visual wrote: »

All this stems from Garda only in forcing speeding and ignoring very poor driving to such a extent a lot now believe driving in middle lane is correct at all times

I disagree. I think people's poor driving skills is a combination of ignorance and selfishness

That's fine you disagree but when everyone realises only speeding is being enforced and drive on left is being ignored along with nearly everything else then most will just watch their speed and ignore everything else.

The same people who badly merge seem to constantly badly merge with enough frequency that incompetence and selfishness can only be corrected with enforcement of the rules.

happycoach

dfeo wrote: »

Whose responsibility is it for motorway merging?

Is it the responsibility of the driver merging to merge or is it the responsibility of the person already on the motorway to facilitate the merge by slowing down to the merger's speed or to move into the outside lane temporarily to let the person in?

When I'm driving along, I normally trot along at an "indicated" 120 / 130 km/h.

If I'm driving where there are other vehicles on front of me, I'll leave a gap between me and the vehicle on front for braking distance and to facilitate a merge for the merging vehicles.

However, when driving at night or very early morning, the traffic is sparse and there are often no other vehicles on front of me and there are often other vehicles that try to merge, more often than not, they are not getting up to motorway speed, they seem to be driving along without checking mirrors or blind spots.

One situation happened where I continued on at 120 and I didn't ease off, and the person trying to merge at what seemed to be 60/70 km/h put on the hazards as I came up behind them and moved into the hard shoulder.

When I was 100 metres or so ahead, I looked into the rear view mirror, and saw that the person was trying to pull out into the lane again !! Straight out ..... not building up speed in the hard shoulder, just pulling straight out.

I'm sure the drivers behind them had skid mars of more than one kind, with heavy hands on the horn.

If a crash had have happened because I didn't ease off the accelerator initially to allow the person to merge, could I be held responsible for directly or indirectly causing a crash?

Driver merging

hmmm

I've seen a few near crashes on M50 slips with people doddering down the slip and pulling out into the main traffic flow at speeds 30 and 40km slower than everyone else. The thing that really annoys me is that if there was a crash, it would happen behind them and they'd potter on regardless.

I'm not sure how you can do anything to stop this behaviour - other than remove the short merge slips which are nuts to begin with.

ironclaw

visual wrote: »

All this stems from Garda only in forcing speeding and ignoring very poor driving to such a extent a lot now believe driving in middle lane is correct at all times

I agree but I think people are starting to take over lane 3 now as well. I've started to notice people gunning for lane 3 and then sitting at 100km/h with tails behind them, even at night. Its quite noticeable in the mornings. The sweet upshot however is lane 1 is nearly completely empty now, the Stonecutters lane is being realised.

Special Circumstances

How to make progress on an Irish motorway:

1) Accept the fact that the person ahead of you on the slip road has no intention of gaining speed. Sit back, relax in the knowledge that you have purchased an adequately powered car.
2) Accelerate to close the gap as they near the start of the hatched markings. Verify that yes indeed a a decent flow of 120kph+ traffic is about to meet dawdleboy once he merges. Already you are at 100kph and closing on dawdleboy.
3) Note dawdleboy's wholly inadequate speed as he crosses the end of the hatched marking and lumps himself out in the main carriage way at 80kph.
4) FLOOR IT! Dawdleboy now acts as a useful barrier for you behind you rather than a useless obstruction in front of you. Nice one dawdleboy!
5) 120kph and merge, you are free and clear and have time to glance at the clusterfvck behind you.

savagethegoat

it's the responsibility of the merger to match his speed to that of lane one traffic.

It's a courtesy for someone in Lane 1 to ease off or move over.

It's downright dangerous for the lane 1 guy to close the gap deliberately or not to facilitate a merger.

grogi

dfeo wrote: »

Whose responsibility is it for motorway merging?

Is it the responsibility of the driver merging to merge or is it the responsibility of the person already on the motorway to facilitate the merge by slowing down to the merger's speed or to move into the outside lane temporarily to let the person in?

If a crash had have happened because I didn't ease off the accelerator initially to allow the person to merge, could I be held responsible for directly or indirectly causing a crash?

No - but nothing will surprise me anymore...

grogi

Kings Inns or bust wrote: »

People regularly fail to take into account not all cars have decent acceleration and some of us are reliant on getting a bit of run up!

In majority of cases the ramp joining the motorway goes downhill. And even when not, there is enough room to reach 100kmh even in a Micra...

If you are afraid of driving 100kmh, you should not drive on the motorway... Expecting everyone else will slow down to accommodate is not only selfish, but also dangerous and above stupid.

grogi

CiniO wrote: »

You must admit though, that moving over to overtaking lane to facilitate other drivers to merge is quite a good custom, and very often crucial on busy motorways to actually make merging possible.
I don't think there are any laws in any country which would indicate obligation to do so, but it's common practice (especially on the Continent) and without it driving on motorway would be hardly possible.

If there is room, I'll do it to reduce the risk exposure to myself.

When in Italy, that was one of my favourite spots for merging... I don't remember what the speed limit was on the mail road, I guess 50, but it being a Mediterranean island, nobody was really going below twice of that...

https://www.google.ie/maps/@39.2592589,9.1082446,3a,75y,318.82h,78.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4JINq2QhXfgBF8whAljcyA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

You go slowly because it is very tight corner, the mirror visibility is impaired by the barriers until last moment... It is plane stupid not to get to the overtaking lane when in the main road, just to reduce the risk of a crash - even if you wouldn't be at fault...


Regardless of that, it remains the responsibility of the merging driver to make sure they can join the motorway safely.

Kings Inns or bust

grogi wrote: »

In majority of cases the ramp joining the motorway goes downhill. And even when not, there is enough room to reach 100kmh even in a Micra...

If you are afraid of driving 100kmh, you should not drive on the motorway... Expecting everyone else will slow down to accommodate is not only selfish, but also dangerous and above stupid.

I think you need to reread the post there sport.

You can't go faster than the diesel audi pottering along IN FRONT OF YOU on the slip, and while she might be able to put on the power at the last second on the slip to build up some speed the micra can't.

grogi

Kings Inns or bust wrote: »

I think you need to reread the post there sport.

You can't go faster than the diesel audi pottering along IN FRONT OF YOU on the slip, and while she might be able to put on the power at the last second on the slip to build up some speed the micra can't.

I wasn't criticising you... It was a general you addressed to all drivers, especially the slower ones

Kings Inns or bust

grogi wrote: »

I wasn't criticising you... It was a general you addressed to all drivers, especially the slower ones

Fair enough, but taking one sentence of a post out of context is a recipe for getting someone's back up. Thanks for posting a clarification, it's appreciated.

shietpilot

It's up to the merger to find a gap, however in busy traffic people need to stop tailgating each other in the left lane to allow cars to merge. A few car lengths lost every slip road won't make you late!

Kings Inns or bust

So like a sort of zip then?

biZrb

What are peoples view on merging before the car in front of you? It happens to me quite regularly and I never know if I should merge when I see the gap or hold out to let the person in front merge. These incidents only happen when the person in front is going slower than the traffic on the motorway and is apprehensive about merging. When I merge before the person in front I always leave a gap to allow them to merge, I don't take 'their' space and make it even more difficult for them.
Part of me wants to be selfish and just go ahead but I also want to be safe, so I never know what the correct etiquette is.

Kings Inns or bust

I tend to do the same, merge slow down a little and flash nervous nelly out.

dudara

I was joing the M8 at J8 Northbound recently, and a people carrier was in front. They appeared to be literally making no effort to accelerate down the slip (possibly a cr*ppy car?) and it was so fustrating as I couldn't build up speed until I had pulled out past them.

Heres a nice slow 30kph merge on the N7 from last week.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxC0wyj9dWw

Special Circumstances

BrownFinger wrote: »

Heres a nice slow 30kph merge on the N7 from last week.

Ah, a classic of the genre! 1 point deducted - perfect example would include the car bucking in top gear as they attempted to merge.

Shpeed killllllls!

grogi

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Ah, a classic of the genre! 1 point deducted - perfect example would include the car bucking in top gear as they attempted to merge.

Shpeed killllllls!

It should be 2 points for Failure to drive on the left hand side of the road.

She gets a point for breaking as she merges into the middle lane.......

Henry Ford III

Some truly scary posts here.

p.s. That video shows several bad things that occur regularly on the dreaded M50.

Henry Ford III

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Some truly scary posts here.

p.s. That video shows several bad things that occur regularly on the dreaded M50.

Thats actually where the N7 meets the M7 and 3 lanes become 2.
My lane is for naas the other two for the M7.
Thats why they are moving so slowly and my lane is clear.
In fairness she was (probably) getting in the right lane but going about it the wrong way.
I had slowed from way back to give ample room to merge.

_Kaiser_

I encounter this most days on the N7-M50S merge. Bad enough that a supposedly "free-flow" junction requires you to slow right down as you switch between them, but you then encounter multiple issues..

- dawdling idiot in front
- person in left merging lane who is determined to get in the right merging lane when they have an empty stretch ahead of them - slowing BOTH lanes as they try to cut someone off
- people in lane 1 of the M50 who refuse to move over when there's plenty of time/space to do so, or who try to cut off the dawdler thus slowing things further as our dawdler is also hesitant
- other merging cars also held up by this who then cut across the markings and block merging as they do so
- People trying to cut into lane 1 from 2/3 to take the Ballymount exit which is FAR too close to the N7 exit

All of this happens in the same 2/300m stretch of road, which is why as soon as I get into lane 1, or if I'm lucky enough not to have a dawdler holding me up and space to do so, I floor it and move across until past this particular stretch where at least there's only 1 lane of potential hazards to worry about (lane 2) , rather than 2/3 (merging lanes/aux lanes, lane 2). It may not be "correct" but it's often the safest approach and that works for me.

Kings Inns or bust

The M50 exit to, inter alia, Malahide is also a personal favourite.

Gazzmonkey

colm_mcm wrote: »

All the driver already on the motorway should be doing is keeping an appropriate distance from the car (also on the motorway) in front. Everything else is up to the driver merging. Some people are afraid of revving their engine beyond 3000rpm.

When I still had the DOHC vtec Civic 3000 was like my minimum rev

but now I drive a derv and 3000 is nearly my maximum rev

Special Circumstances

Gazzmonkey wrote: »

When I still had the DOHC vtec Civic 3000 was like my minimum rev

but now I drive a derv and 3000 is nearly my maximum rev

You always see somebody turning pale in the NCT centre when the boys rev it past 2500. Not even the bottle of holy water from lourdes can protect an engine from being revved to within 2000 rpm of its limiter wha?

ironclaw

Special Circumstances wrote: »

You always see somebody turning pale in the NCT centre when the boys rev it past 2500. Not even the bottle of holy water from lourdes can protect an engine from being revved to within 2000 rpm of its limiter wha?

My newest is non-turbo and is only getting into its stride at 5k. Its a weird feeling.

nice_guy80

In New Zealand they have signs on all merges...

Merge like a zip
Very effective and cuts out that shīte of cutting in

Guy:Incognito

Kings Inns or bust wrote: »

I
People regularly fail to take into account not all cars have decent acceleration and some of us are reliant on getting a bit of run up!

Every car on the road is capable of getting up to 100/120 in the lenght of the slips.

EDIT - seems I took it wrong as it's dealt with above.

The Motorways, and the M50 in particular, is populated by idiots. Most of the junctions on the M50 have 2 lanes as you come around the bends on the slips. 90% of the idiots all jump over each other to get in the right hand one that merges out with a small gap. Every day I see people switching lanes or jumping across the hatch marks from the left lane that would give them the whole distance to the next junction to merge to the right lane and trying to get out on to the main line in a block of cars all bunched together. Gob****es the lot of them. They all seem to think the left lane leads off a cliff.:rolleyes:

hmmm wrote: »

I've seen a few near crashes on M50 slips with people doddering down the slip and pulling out into the main traffic flow at speeds 30 and 40km slower than everyone else. The thing that really annoys me is that if there was a crash, it would happen behind them and they'd potter on regardless.

I'm not sure how you can do anything to stop this behaviour - other than remove the short merge slips which are nuts to begin with.

The short merges are grand if used as overflow for the left merge lane, taking 10% or so of the traffic, not the present situation which is the reverse.

Another issue thats f'ing up the M50 is in heavy traffic everyone thats entering or leaving the M50 is trying to do it in the first 10m of the slip. Red Cow southbound is the prime example. Completely blocked in the evening but if you stay in the left merge for 50m its clear to Ballymount and you can merge at your leisure.

Kings Inns or bust

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Every car on the road is capable of getting up to 100/120 in the lenght of the slips.

EDIT - seems I took it wrong as it's dealt with above.

A Fait 500 with 10 bags of horse manure in the back, a 6'2" tall bloke and a wife who's taller than I struggles - I can assure you!

That said I was quite impressed to be pulled at 180KPH the other week. I'm not quite sure how betsy broke the laws of physics but apparently she did.

Seth Brundle

Kings Inns or bust wrote: »

That said I was quite impressed to be pulled at 180KPH the other week. I'm not quite sure how betsy broke the laws of physics but apparently she did.

What your girlfriend does your you in the car is your business but surely it's dangerous at that speed

colm_mcm

Kings Inns or bust wrote: »

People regularly fail to take into account not all cars have decent acceleration and some of us are reliant on getting a bit of run up! Of course again only where you can see a gap is going to be there.

My missus had a few K11 micras and now has a Yaris. Our work vans are 75hp diesels, I have no bother merging. You just have to keep a good distance from the car in front on the slip road. Leave a gap and build up your speed so that by the time you're merging you're not going considerably slower than traffic. A slight adjustment of your speed as you're about to merge will allow a car to pass if they're too close to where you want to be.
If you're up the hole of another car on the slip road you have to watch them so you don't run into them, watch the traffic in your mirror, and run the risk of someone not wanting to let 2 cars out at once.

Commotion Ocean

In New Zealand they have signs on all merges...

Merge like a zip
Very effective and cuts out that shīte of cutting in

The sign would probably just be ignored and be a mere decoration on our roads like much of our signs.

Like: Roundabout signs telling people which lane to be in, yellow boxes, hatched markings, stop and yield signs et al.

Kings Inns or bust

colm_mcm wrote: »

My missus had a few K11 micras and now has a Yaris. Our work vans are 75hp diesels, I have no bother merging. You just have to keep a good distance from the car in front on the slip road. Leave a gap and build up your speed so that by the time you're merging you're not going considerably slower than traffic. A slight adjustment of your speed as you're about to merge will allow a car to pass if they're too close to where you want to be.
If you're up the hole of another car on the slip road you have to watch them so you don't run into them, watch the traffic in your mirror, and run the risk of someone not wanting to let 2 cars out at once.

I'd just like to point out there was some context to the original post and while I grant you that's undoubtedly the case when you're car number 2 in a line of traffic merging from two lanes, controlled by traffic lights, into one lane on the slip it's not overly helpful when some culchie fookwit dwadles along at 60. There's only so much opening out everyone can do before the cars at the back have to stop.

colm_mcm

If everyone kept a reasonable distance all the way back the chain, it wouldn't be an issue. That's the biggest cause of congestion on motorways, that and bad lane discipline.

Commotion Ocean

Can we not introduce failure to merge as a 2-penalty point offence?

Bit off topic, but would anyone be in favour of gradually upping our speed limits to 160 km/h on motorways? Our motorways are among the most modern in Europe and are of superior quality, even compared to Autobahns in Germany and Austria I've been on.

colm_mcm

Ref 160kmph, have you read this thread!

Kings Inns or bust

dfeo wrote: »

Can we not introduce failure to merge as a 2-penalty point offence?

Bit off topic, but would anyone be in favour of gradually upping our speed limits to 160 km/h on motorways? Our motorways are among the most modern in Europe and are of superior quality, even compared to Autobahns in Germany and Austria I've been on.

Outside of Dublin there is absolutely no reason to impose any speed limit at all, well apart from the users...

Ryertex

The onus is on the driver joining the motorway to merge safely. The more alert and professional drivers already on the motorway will facilitate merging by changing lanes if it safe to do so.Very few Irish drivers have been trained in motorway driving so many drivers do not drive accordingly. The principle of motorways is that all vehicles on a carriageway are travelling in the same direction at more or less the same speed thereby reducing the likelihood of severe impacts. Unfortunately this concept is not widely understood, well in Ireland anyway.

Commotion Ocean

Is there any solid authoritative evidence to say that "speed" actually causes accidents?

The RSA might say that 90% of accidents involve excess speed, but that doesn't necessarily mean that 90% of accidents were caused by that excess speed. Even if 90% of accidents WERE caused by excess speed, it doesn't mean that 90% of speeding cases will result in an accident.