The Health Service Executive Says You Must Drink Fluoridated Tapwater

FourAM

Ìn point of fact, fluoride causes more human cancer death and it causes it faster than any other chemical. It only takes 1 gram of fluoride to kill a child, the same amount of fluoride in a tube of toothpaste. Fluoride has been linked to lower IQ in children, learning disabilities, behavioral disorders, rapid aging, decrease in bone density and strength, metabolic dysfunction, autoimmune disease, cognitive decline and cancer. Why was fluoride in Nazi prison camp water? Why is fluoride a main ingredient in Prozac and Sarin Nerve Gas? Why is it added to tap water? Fluoride is a cumulative toxin, which can lead to more serious health concerns than Dental Fluorosis. It is a toxic industrial waste product that is poison to your body and in no way a nutrient to your body, offering no benefits at all to the human body. Fluoridation of drinking water is mass intoxication of a population equivalent to low level poisoning. Preliminary data from recent health studies in a memo by the Environmental Protection Agency indicate that fluoride may be a carcinogen. Doctor Yiamouylannis concluded that it poisons over 100 enzymes, depletes calcium and magnesium, essential for many bodily functions and increases the risk of cancer and osteoporosis. Who controls each individual dose that a person consumes? Nobody. Who knows their average daily fluoride intake? Nobody. Many countries have banned fluoridation of public drinking water. Have you ever thought to question why that is? Even Guinness beer is heavily fluoridated.

According to the fluoridesandhealth Ireland website, the Health Service Executive says that you must consume fluoride with your tap water because "Ireland is amongst the worst countries in Europe for high frequency consumption of sweets and confectionery by children and adolescents, therefore the use of fluoridated toothpastes alone is insufficient to prevent tooth decay."

I don't know your opinion on this, but this is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
Fluoride is linked to so many health problems. We don't need to be told by daddy government what we have to consume. Fluoride is more harmful than cannabis, which, stupidly, is illegal because it helps people. Fluoridating the water is done in total disregard for the public. Fluoride is poison. Not to mention I get a massive headache that will not go away if I drink too much of it. There's a petition to stop the fluoridation, I wish more people would sign it.

I'm not alone in my thinking and anyone who disagrees is blindly disagreeing with no evidence to even disagree with and they are most likely a troll as well. I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I'm a health nut and I don't like consuming things that I'm unsure of. Aren't you concerned with what you put in your body?

FourAM

FourAM wrote: »

I'm not alone in my thinking and anyone who disagrees is blindly disagreeing with no evidence to even disagree with and they are most likely a troll as well. I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I'm a health nut and I don't like consuming things that I'm unsure of. Aren't you concerned with what you put in your body?

People have lots of good reasons for not buying into the conspiracy theory.
Like for instance how pretty much everything you claimed in your first paragraph is a massive exaggeration, a half truth or an out and out lie.

The claim about " fluoride in Nazi prison camp water" for example is entirely fictional. It was made up from whole cloth by anti-fluoridation campaigners with no basis in reality at all.
http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2011/oct/06/critics-water-fluoridation/truth-about-fluoride-doesnt-include-nazi-myth/

Why do you believe that this completely made up fact is true?

Zaph

FourAM wrote: »

Ìn point of fact, fluoride causes more human cancer death and it causes it faster than any other chemical. It only takes 1 gram of fluoride to kill a child, the same amount of fluoride in a tube of toothpaste. Fluoride has been linked to lower IQ in children

And yet a recent report by presumably smarter people than you or I and based on 60 years worth of studies says that your statements are factually incorrect. It even explicitly refutes your claims that I've quoted above in the article's headline. No offence, but I know who I'm going to believe.

Overheal

FourAM wrote: »

Ìn point of fact, fluoride causes more human cancer death and it causes it faster than any other chemical. It only takes 1 gram of fluoride to kill a child, the same amount of fluoride in a tube of toothpaste. Fluoride has been linked to lower IQ in children, learning disabilities, behavioral disorders, rapid aging, decrease in bone density and strength, metabolic dysfunction, autoimmune disease, cognitive decline and cancer. Why was fluoride in Nazi prison camp water? Why is fluoride a main ingredient in Prozac and Sarin Nerve Gas? Why is it added to tap water? Fluoride is a cumulative toxin, which can lead to more serious health concerns than Dental Fluorosis. It is a toxic industrial waste product that is poison to your body and in no way a nutrient to your body, offering no benefits at all to the human body. Fluoridation of drinking water is mass intoxication of a population equivalent to low level poisoning. Preliminary data from recent health studies in a memo by the Environmental Protection Agency indicate that fluoride may be a carcinogen. Doctor Yiamouylannis concluded that it poisons over 100 enzymes, depletes calcium and magnesium, essential for many bodily functions and increases the risk of cancer and osteoporosis. Who controls each individual dose that a person consumes? Nobody. Who knows their average daily fluoride intake? Nobody. Many countries have banned fluoridation of public drinking water. Have you ever thought to question why that is? Even Guinness beer is heavily fluoridated.

According to the fluoridesandhealth Ireland website, the Health Service Executive says that you must consume fluoride with your tap water because "Ireland is amongst the worst countries in Europe for high frequency consumption of sweets and confectionery by children and adolescents, therefore the use of fluoridated toothpastes alone is insufficient to prevent tooth decay."

I don't know your opinion on this, but this is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
Fluoride is linked to so many health problems. We don't need to be told by daddy government what we have to consume. Fluoride is more harmful than cannabis, which, stupidly, is illegal because it helps people. Fluoridating the water is done in total disregard for the public. Fluoride is poison. Not to mention I get a massive headache that will not go away if I drink too much of it. There's a petition to stop the fluoridation, I wish more people would sign it.

I'm not alone in my thinking and anyone who disagrees is blindly disagreeing with no evidence to even disagree with and they are most likely a troll as well. I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I'm a health nut and I don't like consuming things that I'm unsure of. Aren't you concerned with what you put in your body?

Fluoride (AKA Sodium Fluoride, or Sodium Fluorosilicate, or even Hydrofluorosilic Acid) doesn't even make the list of known/probable carcinogens on cancer.org

http://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancercauses/othercarcinogens/generalinformationaboutcarcinogens/known-and-probable-human-carcinogens

So you're already starting from a false basis.

jenny smith

Asfar as i kow it is true a small amount of toothpaste has enough to kill a child. OP mentions Nazis. Here is a page from Mind Control World Control

i do not say it is true and that is a conspiracy book. I just wondered what people thought about the claimed brain effect

The book if any one wants it http://hisheavenlyarmies.com/documents/Keith-MindControlWorldControl-TheEncyclopediaOfMindControl1998.pdf

Overheal

jenny smith wrote: »

Asfar as i know it is true a small amount of toothpaste has enough to kill a child.

For sodium fluoride

minimum LD50 in rats/mice is 52mg/kg

European toothpaste can han have up to 1400ppm or 1400mg/kg

which in laymans terms means that a 16kg, 4 year old child would have to ingest - assuming they are as vulnerable as a mouse - a bit less than an entire kilogram of toothpaste (in excess of 4 whole tubes) before they were at risk of those effects.

An adult human of 70kg would have to ingest 3kg of toothpaste at that concentration, about 17 tubes of toothpaste.

All of which would have to occur in about an 8 hour period, as the body would metabolize a lot of that.

An that's on the low end: the LD50 range in mice is 52mg-200mg. So a child might be just as fine ingesting a full 2kg of the stuff, an adult a gallon of it. This is before you adopt the fact that children's tubes are generally smaller, and nobody is ingesting this stuff in volumes, or storing it in bulk.

In water in Ireland, fluoridation is regulated at 0.6 - 0.8 parts per million. You would be more likely to drown yourself from drinking too much water than you would from chronic fluoridation at those levels.

weisses

Suicide by Colgate . . . . :cool:

Overheal

That's before you figure that you'd vomit most of that out.

weisses

Overheal wrote: »

That's before you figure that you'd vomit most of that out.

Or you figured out you got the non fluoride tubes by mistake

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

In water in Ireland, fluoridation is regulated at 0.6 - 0.8 parts per million. You would be more likely to drown yourself from drinking too much water than you would from chronic fluoridation at those levels.

http://www.compoundchem.com/2014/07/27/lethaldoses/
The LD50 for water is about 6 litres for a 75kg person.
To get the same of fluoride you'd have to drink around 4000-5000 litres of water...

ScumLord

FourAM wrote: »

I'm not alone in my thinking and anyone who disagrees is blindly disagreeing with no evidence to even disagree with and they are most likely a troll as well. I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I'm a health nut

So basically, here's a crazy theory I heard, trust me I'm nuts. :pac:

The fluoridation myth is really at the end of it's rope now, it's a surprise to see this pop up right after the fluoridation scandal got dealt it's worst blow by the Australians.

As a health nut you're probably susceptible to many of these conspiracy theories. Health nuts follow trends and fads a lot. The whole health nut scene needs a constant flow of wild stories to keep people interested past exercise and eat right, which is basically the whole story if you're not taking part in some athletics. So take everything you hear from health nuts with a pinch of salt, it's more than likely something another health nut made up to sell something or get likes.

weisses

ScumLord wrote: »

So basically, here's a crazy theory I heard, trust me I'm nuts. :pac:

The fluoridation myth is really at the end of it's rope now,

Correct .. The Cochrane study last year did just show that.... You can Hardly label them Conspiracy theorists ....

put it where it works by applying it directly to the teeth... Don't drink it ... Its so easy


http://europe.newsweek.com/fluoridation-may-not-prevent-cavities-huge-study-shows-329505?rm=eu

ScumLord

weisses wrote: »

Correct .. The Cochrane study last year did just show that.... You can Hardly label them Conspiracy theorists ....

put it where it works by applying it directly to the teeth... Don't drink it ... Its so easy


http://europe.newsweek.com/fluoridation-may-not-prevent-cavities-huge-study-shows-329505?rm=eu

There's certainly a big problem with scientific publishing and how the rest of the community swallows that data without a second thought. It's come up a few times in AH now. It wouldn't surprise me if people at the time were looking for a quick fix and fluoridation was presented as a solution which was cheap and easy.

To find out it's completely ineffective wouldn't surprise me.

jh79

weisses wrote: »

Correct .. The Cochrane study last year did just show that.... You can Hardly label them Conspiracy theorists ....

put it where it works by applying it directly to the teeth... Don't drink it ... Its so easy


http://europe.newsweek.com/fluoridation-may-not-prevent-cavities-huge-study-shows-329505?rm=eu

You know that's not true. We discussed it in the other thread. From what I remember;

The Cochrane Review states it is perfectly safe and that older studies show without doubt its effectiveness.

Newer studies also show its effectiveness but did not have a no fluoridation control. It is impossible to have a zero control for comparison and in hindsight Cochrane states the criteria set was probably not appropriate.

In other words its safe and effective.

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

You know that's not true. We discussed it in the other thread. From what I remember.

Nope ... Just read it back ... It might be effective with young children pre eruptive is what you said... After that it's highly inefficient ... That's is what we discussed

jh79

weisses wrote: »

Nope ... Just read it back ... It might be effective with young children pre eruptive is what you said... After that it's highly inefficient ... That's is what we discussed

This is what i stuck up from the Cochrane review;

Basically the best available research showed a significant effect just not as significant as the earlier studies..

“In the past 20 years, the majority of research evaluating the effectiveness of water fluoridation for the prevention of dental caries has been undertaken using cross-sectional studies with concurrent control, with improved statistical handling of confounding factors (Rugg-Gunn 2012). We acknowledge that there may be concerns regarding the exclusion of these studies from the current review. A previous review of these cross-sectional studies has shown a smaller measured effect in studies post-1990 than was seen in earlier studies, although the effect remains significant. It is suggested that this reduction in size of effect may be due to the diffusion effect (Rugg-Gunn 2012); this is likely to only occur in areas where a high proportion of the population already receive fluoridated water.”

“However, there has been much debate around the appropriateness of GRADE when applied to public health interventions, particularly for research questions where evidence from randomised controlled trials is never going to be available due to the unfeasibility of conducting such trials. Community water fluoridation is one such area.”

And:

“we accept that the terminology of ’low quality’ for evidence may appear too judgmental. We acknowledge that studies on water fluoridation, as for many public health interventions, are complex to undertake and that researchers are often constrained in their study design by practical considerations. For many public health interventions, the GRADE framework will always result in a rating of low or very low quality. Decision makers need to recognise that for some areas of research, the quality of the evidence will never be ’high’ and that, as for any intervention, the recommendation for its use depends not just upon the quality of the evidence but also on factors such as acceptability and cost-effectiveness (Burford 2012).”

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

This is what i stuck up from the Cochrane review;

Basically the best available research showed a significant effect just not as significant as the earlier studies..

“In the past 20 years, the majority of research evaluating the effectiveness of water fluoridation for the prevention of dental caries has been undertaken using cross-sectional studies with concurrent control, with improved statistical handling of confounding factors (Rugg-Gunn 2012). We acknowledge that there may be concerns regarding the exclusion of these studies from the current review. A previous review of these cross-sectional studies has shown a smaller measured effect in studies post-1990 than was seen in earlier studies, although the effect remains significant. It is suggested that this reduction in size of effect may be due to the diffusion effect (Rugg-Gunn 2012); this is likely to only occur in areas where a high proportion of the population already receive fluoridated water.”

“However, there has been much debate around the appropriateness of GRADE when applied to public health interventions, particularly for research questions where evidence from randomised controlled trials is never going to be available due to the unfeasibility of conducting such trials. Community water fluoridation is one such area.”

And:

“we accept that the terminology of ’low quality’ for evidence may appear too judgmental. We acknowledge that studies on water fluoridation, as for many public health interventions, are complex to undertake and that researchers are often constrained in their study design by practical considerations. For many public health interventions, the GRADE framework will always result in a rating of low or very low quality. Decision makers need to recognise that for some areas of research, the quality of the evidence will never be ’high’ and that, as for any intervention, the recommendation for its use depends not just upon the quality of the evidence but also on factors such as acceptability and cost-effectiveness (Burford 2012).”

That's just great now isn't it

jh79

So 'high' quality research showed it to effective in the past, the best possibe research since has shown it to still be effective and all reveiws to date agree it is safe too.

Overheal

Yes: Fluoride is still the same chemical and human physiology has not changed dramatically in the last couple centuries - at least not in any way that impacts the bodies reaction to fluoride levels that have been introduced.

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

So 'high' quality research showed it to effective in the past, the best possibe research since has shown it to still be effective and all reveiws to date agree it is safe too.

Why are you contradicting yourself ?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=97459335&postcount=527

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=96311152&postcount=499

jh79

weisses wrote: »

Why are you contradicting yourself ?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=97459335&postcount=527

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=96311152&postcount=499

Because at the time I was lazy and only read the plain English summary.

Having read the extract from the more detailed summary how would you summarise it in your own words?

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

Because at the time I was lazy and only read the plain English summary.

That is not true your remark saying

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=97459335&postcount=527

Comes three months after you already went past the summary here

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=96315295&postcount=510

jh79 wrote: »

Having read the extract from the more detailed summary how would you summarise it in your own words?

I stick with this

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=96322673&postcount=515

jh79

weisses wrote: »

That is not true your remark saying

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=97459335&postcount=527

Comes three months after you already went past the summary here

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=96315295&postcount=510



I stick with this

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=96322673&postcount=515

The bit your "sticking" with is from the plain english summary what is your interpretation of the more detailed summary, the devils in the detail as they say?

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

The bit your "sticking" with is from the plain english summary what is your interpretation of the more detailed summary, the devils in the detail as they say?

I don't think you can have different summaries from 1 report

What you are aiming at are interpretations ...

jh79

weisses wrote: »

That is not true your remark saying

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=97459335&postcount=527

Comes three months after you already went past the summary here

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=96315295&postcount=510



I stick with this

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=96322673&postcount=515

Ah I see now, this was about systemic / topical delivery systems so no contradictions at all.

Flouridaton is a systemic delivery system with a topical mode of action. The ingested is wasted but through eating and drinking there is enough delivered topically to reduce cariers.

jh79

weisses wrote: »

I don't think you can have different summaries from 1 report

What you are aiming at are interpretations ...

They are from the same group and are not different summaries, the scientific summary just goes into more detail.

They acknowledged that they excluded research that showed significant positive effects of fluoridation even though the research was to a standard normally seen for public health interventions.

Atomicjuicer0

There needs to be a system to remove fluoride or whatever is to be used to treat water on the user side.

It's obvious that capitalism manipulates science negatively with issues like this. Look at how long it took to scientifically prove cigarettes were unhealthy when anyone with a brain knew full well.

Go to a pet advice forum and read how people take care of their fish with regards to water. Or how farmers pay close attention to the health of their animals and you'll realise how political anything to do with humans is when it comes to science and money.

Anyone who disagrees, PLEASE, continue to drink the bleach pouring from our taps. I know it's required to keep the water free from contamination, but it needs to be removed on the user side. Just no one wants to pay for it. Simple as that.

Anyone who agrees, get yourself a decent filter.

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

They are from the same group and are not different summaries, the scientific summary just goes into more detail.

They acknowledged that they excluded research that showed significant positive effects of fluoridation even though the research was to a standard normally seen for public health interventions.

Can you link the detailed summary provided by Cochrane ?

Atomicjuicer0

Atomicjuicer0 wrote: »

Anyone who agrees, get yourself a decent filter.

But if everything that earns money is political and can be manipulated, why are you not suspicious of the people who promote fears about fluoride who also happen to carry ads for filters to remove said fluoride?

How do you know that these people are not doing what you are accusing others of?

Atomicjuicer0

King Mob wrote: »

But if everything that earns money is political and can be manipulated, why are you not suspicious of the people who promote fears about fluoride who also happen to carry ads for filters to remove said fluoride?

How do you know that these people are not doing what you are accusing others of?

Because my tap water smells like chlorine.

jh79

weisses wrote: »

Can you link the detailed summary provided by Cochrane ?

There is no detailed summary just the actual full report.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD010856.pub2/full


Here is a critique of the Cochrane Review with our own Prof H Whelton as co-author, published in Nature.

http://www.nature.com/bdj/journal/v220/n7/full/sj.bdj.2016.257.html

Atomicjuicer0

Atomicjuicer0 wrote: »

Because my tap water smells like chlorine.

This doesn't answer my question unfortunately.

I asked why do you trust the claims of anti-fluoridation campaigners when they stand to profit from causing fear of fluoride?

And what exactly does chlorine have to do with anything? Are you suggesting we don't chlorinate water also?

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

There is no detailed summary just the actual full report.

This is the Cochrane group abstract

http://www.cochrane.org/CD010856/ORAL_water-fluoridation-prevent-tooth-decay

So is the conclusion below correct or incorrect ?

Water fluoridation has been effective at reducing caries in children in the past

There is uncertainty around the size of effect of water fluoridation in populations today

It is likely that new studies, in areas with greater use of fluoride toothpastes and other caries preventive measures, lower caries levels and different dietary patterns, will show a reduced effect of water fluoridation

There is insufficient evidence to determine the effect of water fluoridation on disparities in caries levels across socio-economic status

There is insufficient evidence to determine the effect of water fluoridation on caries levels in adults

There is insufficient evidence to determine the effect of removing water fluoridation programmes from areas where they already exist

There is an association between fluoridated water and dental fluorosis

The review does not provide a comprehensive review of harms

jh79

weisses wrote: »

This is the Cochrane group abstract

http://www.cochrane.org/CD010856/ORAL_water-fluoridation-prevent-tooth-decay

So is the conclusion below correct or incorrect ?

You've asked this question before and backed your self into a corner.

If you insist on only including studies that rate high on the GRADE system then all you are left with is that fluoridation has been shown to be effective in the past.

Future research that might paint fluoridation in a bad light will also fail to meet this criteria and will have to be ignored.

Are you sure that is the way you want the discussion to go??

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

You've asked this question before and backed your self into a corner.

If you insist on only including studies that rate high on the GRADE system then all you are left with is that fluoridation has been shown to be effective in the past.

Future research that might paint fluoridation in a bad light will also fail to meet this criteria and will have to be ignored.

Are you sure that is the way you want the discussion to go??

I asked a question in regards to pieces directly from the Cochrane report

But apparently to make fluoridation stick we need to include low quality research

Decision makers need to recognise that for some areas of research, the quality of the evidence will never be ’high’ and that, as for any intervention, the recommendation for its use depends not just upon the quality of the evidence but also on factors such as acceptability and cost-effectiveness (Burford 2012).”

ceegee

FourAM wrote: »

Ìn point of fact, fluoride causes more human cancer death and it causes it faster than any other chemical. It only takes 1 gram of fluoride to kill a child, the same amount of fluoride in a tube of toothpaste. Fluoride has been linked to lower IQ in children, learning disabilities, behavioral disorders, rapid aging, decrease in bone density and strength, metabolic dysfunction, autoimmune disease, cognitive decline and cancer. Why was fluoride in Nazi prison camp water? Why is fluoride a main ingredient in Prozac and Sarin Nerve Gas? Why is it added to tap water? Fluoride is a cumulative toxin, which can lead to more serious health concerns than Dental Fluorosis. It is a toxic industrial waste product that is poison to your body and in no way a nutrient to your body, offering no benefits at all to the human body. Fluoridation of drinking water is mass intoxication of a population equivalent to low level poisoning. Preliminary data from recent health studies in a memo by the Environmental Protection Agency indicate that fluoride may be a carcinogen. Doctor Yiamouylannis concluded that it poisons over 100 enzymes, depletes calcium and magnesium, essential for many bodily functions and increases the risk of cancer and osteoporosis. Who controls each individual dose that a person consumes? Nobody. Who knows their average daily fluoride intake? Nobody. Many countries have banned fluoridation of public drinking water. Have you ever thought to question why that is? Even Guinness beer is heavily fluoridated.

According to the fluoridesandhealth Ireland website, the Health Service Executive says that you must consume fluoride with your tap water because "Ireland is amongst the worst countries in Europe for high frequency consumption of sweets and confectionery by children and adolescents, therefore the use of fluoridated toothpastes alone is insufficient to prevent tooth decay."

I don't know your opinion on this, but this is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
Fluoride is linked to so many health problems. We don't need to be told by daddy government what we have to consume. Fluoride is more harmful than cannabis, which, stupidly, is illegal because it helps people. Fluoridating the water is done in total disregard for the public. Fluoride is poison. Not to mention I get a massive headache that will not go away if I drink too much of it. There's a petition to stop the fluoridation, I wish more people would sign it.

I'm not alone in my thinking and anyone who disagrees is blindly disagreeing with no evidence to even disagree with and they are most likely a troll as well. I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I'm a health nut and I don't like consuming things that I'm unsure of. Aren't you concerned with what you put in your body?

Fluoride isnt a main ingredient in prozac or sarin.

jh79

weisses wrote: »

I asked a question in regards to pieces directly from the Cochrane report

But apparently to make fluoridation stick we need to include low quality research

No, because it is not possible to design a study that meets this criteria so the "lower" quality research needs to be considered . So what do you suggest??

Look at it this way;

The high quality research without doubt shows it was effective in the past.

All subsequent research shows it to be effective too but due to limitations in the study design the level of effectiveness can not be determined for certain.

They do not say it is ineffective.

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

No, because it is not possible to design a study that meets this criteria so the "lower" quality research needs to be considered . So what do you suggest??

Look at it this way;

The high quality research without doubt shows it was effective in the past.

But it doesn't meet the criteria ... period

jh79 wrote: »

All subsequent research shows it to be effective too but due to limitations in the study design the level of effectiveness can not be determined for certain.

They do not say it is ineffective.

And why were those limitations in place ? .... Something to do with studies that are not up to standard perhaps

If you cherrypick your studies you can indeed show it to be effective ... Same goes for the opposite desired result

Cochrane used a different standard and reached the conclusions I posted earlier

jh79

weisses wrote: »

But it doesn't meet the criteria ... period



And why were those limitations in place ? .... Something to do with studies that are not up to standard perhaps

If you cherrypick your studies you can indeed show it to be effective ... Same goes for the opposite desired result

Cochrane used a different standard and reached the conclusions I posted earlier

Already addressed by Cochrane the studies don't meet a criteria that may not be appropriate.

“However, there has been much debate around the appropriateness of GRADE when applied to public health interventions, particularly for research questions where evidence from randomised controlled trials is never going to be available due to the unfeasibility of conducting such trials. Community water fluoridation is one such area.”

Also I didn't cherry pick, this quote is taken from Cochrane ;

"In the past 20 years, the majority of research evaluating the effectiveness of water fluoridation for the prevention of dental caries has been undertaken using cross-sectional studies with concurrent control, with improved statistical handling of confounding factors (Rugg-Gunn 2012). We acknowledge that there may be concerns regarding the exclusion of these studies from the current review. A previous review of these cross-sectional studies has shown a smaller measured effect in studies post-1990 than was seen in earlier studies, although the effect remains significant. It is suggested that this reduction in size of effect may be due to the diffusion effect (Rugg-Gunn 2012); this is likely to only occur in areas where a high proportion of the population already receive fluoridated water.”

If you dismiss the above then you'll have to dismiss all future research in this area and will be stuck with the fact that the only research that is acceptable to you shows it to be effective

or

You accept the best available research shows it is still effective and hope in the future newer research will suggest otherwise.

jh79

weisses wrote: »

And why were those limitations in place ? .... Something to do with studies that are not up to standard perhaps

Answered in the following;

http://www.nature.com/bdj/journal/v220/n7/full/sj.bdj.2016.257.html

"Many of the early evaluations of the effectiveness of water fluoridation were repeated cross-sectional studies in both the community about to implement water fluoridation and also in a control (or reference) community receiving drinking water with an unadjusted, low fluoride concentration. Evaluations took place before fluoridation began (baseline) to determine comparability between the two communities, and after a suitable number of years (very often five years). This design is known as a non-randomised, concurrent-control, before-and-after study."

"Over time, in many countries, coverage of the population with water fluoridation schemes was almost complete, at least to the limits of public health requirements and technical feasibility. In such jurisdictions, the priority for health authorities was to monitor the continued effectiveness of existing schemes. Most recent evaluations of water fluoridation have been of this type, using the most appropriate design, which is a single cross-sectional survey of fluoridated and non-fluoridated groups with control for confounding factors. One of the critical problems with the 2015 Cochrane Review is that these data have been excluded from the Review. This important point will be discussed further below."

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

Answered in the following;

http://www.nature.com/bdj/journal/v220/n7/full/sj.bdj.2016.257.html

"Many of the early evaluations of the effectiveness of water fluoridation were repeated cross-sectional studies in both the community about to implement water fluoridation and also in a control (or reference) community receiving drinking water with an unadjusted, low fluoride concentration. Evaluations took place before fluoridation began (baseline) to determine comparability between the two communities, and after a suitable number of years (very often five years). This design is known as a non-randomised, concurrent-control, before-and-after study."

"Over time, in many countries, coverage of the population with water fluoridation schemes was almost complete, at least to the limits of public health requirements and technical feasibility. In such jurisdictions, the priority for health authorities was to monitor the continued effectiveness of existing schemes. Most recent evaluations of water fluoridation have been of this type, using the most appropriate design, which is a single cross-sectional survey of fluoridated and non-fluoridated groups with control for confounding factors. One of the critical problems with the 2015 Cochrane Review is that these data have been excluded from the Review. This important point will be discussed further below."

Sooo you are basically disagreeing with the Cochrane study

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

You accept the best available research shows it is still effective and hope in the future newer research will suggest otherwise.

Rightttt ...

And what is the best available ? Let me guess the ones left out bij Cochrane :rolleyes:

atticu

Were did the OP disappear to?

jh79

weisses wrote: »

Rightttt ...

And what is the best available ? Let me guess the ones left out bij Cochrane :rolleyes:

So lets leave them out;

The only evidence that meets the "high" criteria on the GRADE system shows fluoridation to be effective according to the Cochrane review.

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

So lets leave them out;

The only evidence that meets the "high" criteria on the GRADE system shows fluoridation to be effective according to the Cochrane review.

So then you agree with the Cochrane report ?

jh79

weisses wrote: »

So then you agree with the Cochrane report ?

Let me guess ? You found something in the report so want me to say yes and then spring it on me?

So what is it?

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

Let me guess ? You found something in the report so want me to say yes and then spring it on me?

So what is it?

Nope .. I just want to know where you stand in regards to the report ...

Usually you agree with Wheldon... who is critical

jh79

weisses wrote: »

Nope .. I just want to know where you stand in regards to the report ...

Usually you agree with Wheldon... who is critical

She is critical that 97% of the studies were excluded which does seem excessive and Cochrane does raise the idea that the GRADE framework might not be appropriate in this case.

They both agree it is effective though.

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

She is critical that 97% of the studies were excluded which does seem excessive and Cochrane does raise the idea that the GRADE framework might not be appropriate in this case.

They both agree it is effective though.

Ohh fluoride is

Fluoridation .. That's a different story

Water fluoridation has been effective at reducing caries in children in the past

There is uncertainty around the size of effect of water fluoridation in populations today

It is likely that new studies, in areas with greater use of fluoride toothpastes and other caries preventive measures, lower caries levels and different dietary patterns, will show a reduced effect of water fluoridation

There is insufficient evidence to determine the effect of water fluoridation on disparities in caries levels across socio-economic status

There is insufficient evidence to determine the effect of water fluoridation on caries levels in adults

There is insufficient evidence to determine the effect of removing water fluoridation programmes from areas where they already exist

There is an association between fluoridated water and dental fluorosis

The review does not provide a comprehensive review of harms

jh79

weisses wrote: »

Ohh fluoride is

Fluoridation .. That's a different story

"Water fluoridation has been effective at reducing caries in children in the past"

It evens tells you the % effectiveness, we went through this before.

"There is insufficient evidence to determine the effect of water fluoridation on caries levels in adults"

This means to determine the % effectiveness , it doesn't mean there is no evidence of effectiveness.

Also this is based on only assessing studies that meet the high grade which Cochrane says may not be appropriate for water fluoridation.

Any future studies that may show fluoride to be ineffective will also not meet this standard so will you dismiss these studies too if they ever happen?

No matter how you spin it it is not good for the anti-flouride agenda.

Insist on the GRADE system and the only studies that meet the criteria support CWF

Or

Loosen the criteria, which strengthens the CWF argument even more and hope in the future dental hygiene and diet leads to CWF not being effective anymore.

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

"Water fluoridation has been effective at reducing caries in children in the past"

It evens tells you the % effectiveness, we went through this before.

"There is insufficient evidence to determine the effect of water fluoridation on caries levels in adults"

This means to determine the % effectiveness , it doesn't mean there is no evidence of effectiveness.

Also this is based on only assessing studies that meet the high grade which Cochrane says may not be appropriate for water fluoridation.

Any future studies that may show fluoride to be ineffective will also not meet this standard so will you dismiss these studies too if they ever happen?

No matter how you spin it it is not good for the anti-flouride agenda.

Insist on the GRADE system and the only studies that meet the criteria support CWF

Or

Loosen the criteria, which strengthens the CWF argument even more and hope in the future dental hygiene and diet leads to CWF not being effective anymore.

I would be more worried 97 % of the studies used to determine if Fluoride is safe/effective doesn't meet the criteria