Leap Card Online Topup - WTF?

Ardent

Calling all leap card holders -

Registered online just now with a view to topping up my leap card. For the convenience of it. It would APPEAR that after topping up by X amount, I have to validate the top-up at a physical ticket machine before it's applied??

Sorry if I'm mistaken on this, but please tell me that this isn't the ass-backward case?!

Ardent

Reason I ask is I'm forced to select a "Load Location"...for "collection" purposes....

Sono

Are you based in Dublin? You can do it at any train/dart station, it's a pain in the hole and I have no idea why you have to go to this hassle

Peregrine

Ardent wrote: »

Sorry if I'm mistaken on this, but please tell me that this isn't the ass-backward case?!

It's a piece of plastic. Yeah, that's the case.

You can collect it at a Luas stop, Leap agents or using an NFC enabled phone.

Alkers

Setup auto top up and don't worry about it again!

TheChizler

Credit is actually stored in the card, it's not just a reference number like a credit card. The credit has to be put on to the card manually since the card isn't Internet connected.

If you have an android phone with NFC you can use it to collect the credit, or go to your local payzone.

Ardent

Sono wrote: »

Are you based in Dublin? You can do it at any train/dart station, it's a pain in the hole and I have no idea why you have to go to this hassle

Had a bad experience with a ticket machine today, it was borked and wouldn't process any of my bank cards for some reason.

Said to myself, fuggit I'll just go home and register the card online, surely I can top it up that way...

I know it may seem a minor detail to some - but why should I have to "collect" the top-up. Why isn't the topup on my account automatically applied to my leap card? Why is it not recognised or applied when I next tag on/off. Does the Oyster card in London do that?

AlekSmart

Ardent wrote: »

Had a bad experience with a ticket machine today, it was borked and wouldn't process any of my bank cards for some reason.

Said to myself, fuggit I'll just go home and register the card online, surely I can top it up that way...

I know it may seem a minor detail to some - but why should I have to "collect" the top-up. Why isn't the topup on my account automatically applied to my leap card? Why is it not recognised or applied when I next tag on/off. Does the Oyster card in London do that?

No the Oyster Card does not do that in London,as it only connects the top-up from suitably connected locations.

https://oyster.tfl.gov.uk/oyster/link/sso/0001.do

1. Make your purchase online

2. Activate at a station (Tube, DLR, London Overground or most National Rail stations within the London area) or tram stop when you start your journey.

Information for bus users

You may be interested in Auto top-up, which tops up your card automatically every time your balance falls below £10 . Although this has to be activated by making a journey at a Tube, DLR or Overground station, or Tram stop, once set up, it will work on the bus.

Exact same top-up procedure.

However Leapcard has one significant advantage over Oyster,in that it can be used to pay for accompanying passengers,who will also get the discounted Fare.

You can now use an Android phone with NFC enabled to charge your Leapcard as well,so it's not all doom'n gloom ?

Peregrine

Ardent wrote: »

I know it may seem a minor detail to some - but why should I have to "collect" the top-up. Why isn't the topup on my account automatically applied to my leap card? Why is it not recognised or applied when I next tag on/off. Does the Oyster card in London do that?

I don't think you understand what the Leapcard is. It's not like a phone powered by a battery connected to a network. It's just a card. It has no way of knowing that you topped up online.

So, you choose a load location like a top-up machine in Spar or a DART validator which is connected directly to the internet and can 'remember' your order and apply it to your card. The bus ticket machines just aren't as sophisticated or connected. Alternatively, an NFC enabled phone can apply the credit to your card.

Yes, the Oyster card is the same. I don't think it has the NFC app ability though. Not too sure. Only difference is that London is littered with rail stops unlike Dublin.

Ardent

TheChizler wrote: »

Credit is actually stored in the card, it's not just a reference number like a credit card. The credit has to be put on to the card manually since the card isn't Internet connected.

If you have an android phone with NFC you can use it to collect the credit, or go to your local payzone.

Thanks, used the Android app to apply and collect the credit. Was a little flakey but it worked.

LastStop

Peregrine wrote: »

The bus ticket machines just aren't as sophisticated or connected. Alternatively, an NFC enabled phone can apply the credit to your card.

Available on Android phones only at the moment. The app works very well and quick.

Peregrine

LastStop wrote: »

Available on Android phones only at the moment. The app works very well and quick.

iPhones don't have the functionality. Apple rejected the idea of NFC for years. It's a feature on the current version but, I believe, only able to be used for Apple Pay.

Ardent

Peregrine wrote: »

I don't think you understand what the Leapcard is. It's not like a phone powered by a battery connected to a network. It's just a card. It has no way of knowing that you topped up online.

I mistakenly assumed the credit was stored online, with the card and NFC used to identify the account. Still think, in this day and age, this is the right way to do it - and be able to top up (without collecting) by web, tablet and phone...regardless of OS. But then you're talking about turning a lot of dumb readers at each train station into smart ones - at great cost.

Mrs OBumble

Simona1986 wrote: »

Setup auto top up and don't worry about it again!

Eh - how it auto-top-up different? Since it's just a card, surely I have to get any auto-topup transations that have have happened applied to the card too?

Or does the card know I have auto-top-up enabled, and is willing to trust that I've got sufficient funds in my account for an auto-topup to work when it should?

TheChizler

It's a setting on the card that must be set at an Internet connected validator, and yes there's an element of trust as if you go below a threshold the card automatically adds on your top up amount. The security is that they have your bank account details, and if a debit fails your card is cancelled even on buses.

Ben D Bus

When will it be possible to use Debit/Credit Cards instead of Leap? Topups then cease to be necessary (except for getting paid every month of course )

London appears to be actively encouraging people to discontinue PAYG Oyster usage and move to bank cards. Capping etc still applies.

plodder

Ben D Bus wrote: »

When will it be possible to use Debit/Credit Cards instead of Leap? Topups then cease to be necessary (except for getting paid every month of course )

London appears to be actively encouraging people to discontinue PAYG Oyster usage and move to bank cards. Capping etc still applies.

The sticking point seems to be that the fare machines on Dublin bus are too antiquated to support this. The recent strike and pay award means the day that these get replaced has probably moved out even further. So, god knows I'd say..

I've been using the Android leapcard app, and it's very good. It's a reasonable compromise in the circumstances. Though I posted about one strange aspect of it on the leap card thread that is annoying (won't repeat it here).

LXFlyer

plodder wrote: »

The sticking point seems to be that the fare machines on Dublin bus are too antiquated to support this. The recent strike and pay award means the day that these get replaced has probably moved out even further. So, god knows I'd say..

I've been using the Android leapcard app, and it's very good. It's a reasonable compromise in the circumstances. Though I posted about one strange aspect of it on the leap card thread that is annoying (won't repeat it here).

It also doesn't help that one of the three major banks hasn't even started to roll out contactless debit cards yet.

Funding for new ticket machines would come from the NTA.

It's pretty clear that they will not be funding the pay awards - that's got to come from within DB.

TheChizler

Also mobile validators that have to have a guaranteed connection to the Leap network is a big technical challenge. It could introduce delays while people are paying which isn't something they're eager for.

snickerpuss

Have to say the app is a godsend. No more running to a shop before getting the bus in the morning and I can check the balance easily without faffing about with their website.

AlekSmart

TheChizler wrote: »

Also mobile validators that have to have a guaranteed connection to the Leap network is a big technical challenge. It could introduce delays while people are paying which isn't something they're eager for.

Mounting one,or more,of the Smart Card Validators on each of the RTPI units throughout the City Centre would,at a stroke,provide a quantum leap in terms of functionality.

As the SCV's do not have any moving parts,they are as vandal-proof as can be currently found,additionally,as with the unit in Dublin Bus HQ's window they can be placed behind a protective screen if desired.

Given that Leapcard hemselves referred to drop-in shops in their launch material,It remains somewhat traditionally Irish that we shy away from making maximum use of a good thing !

One other issue worth bearing in mind regarding a 100% switch to Debit Card usage,is what policy the various Banks will adopt in relation to pricing such transactions.
Currently,customers of the the Irish Banks are in the middle of a charging "holiday" for such transactions,it remains unclear as to whether the Banks would be willing to make that a permanent feature of Debit Card Fare Payment.

Proceed with caution,as Mr Fitzpatrick might well have said.....;)

L1011

Most banks now charge for contactless.

spurious

Auto top up is the way to go. Everything happens painlessly, no needing to validate topups.

Be well and win

Ben D Bus wrote: »

When will it be possible to use Debit/Credit Cards instead of Leap? Topups then cease to be necessary (except for getting paid every month of course )

London appears to be actively encouraging people to discontinue PAYG Oyster usage and move to bank cards. Capping etc still applies.

It's potentially years away, there is a massive investment needed across the network to accommodate such cards, liability and fees has to be agreed with the banks and to be honest, it may be hard to justify spending the millions needs to provide this when perhaps the money could be better spent on infrastructure or housing

Padraig Mor

It's a ridiculous setup really. I have a Leap card but only use it very occasionally so auto top up is pointless. Have an Android phone but no NFC so no app for me. So did an online topup recently whereby I knew I would be in Cork and travelling from the train station - but would not be near any Payzone outlet in the city (there's not that many really). Firstly of course it's apparently 24 - 36 hours before you can even collect your credit. Then it's not clear whether you can collect your credit from the machines / validators in Cork train station - some sources imply you can but others say Dublin only - so rule that out in case I end up stuck in the train station (which of course doesn't have a Payzone outlet) unable to collect my credit. I then go to my local Payzone outlet (in a Cork county town) only to find their machine doesn't work, and never had. Eventually I had to drive to Mahon Point to collect it - which rather defeated the purpose!

Dial Hard

Padraig Mor wrote:

It's a ridiculous setup really. I have a Leap card but only use it very occasionally so auto top up is pointless.

I use my Leap card about once a month and it's *because* I use it so occasionally that I find auto top-up so handy. I never have to remember when I last put credit on the card, how much I put on, how many times I've used it since, etc etc.

plodder

Dial Hard wrote: »

I use my Leap card about once a month and it's *because* I use it so occasionally that I find auto top-up so handy. I never have to remember when I last put credit on the card, how much I put on, how many times I've used it since, etc etc.

So long as you don't mind a permanent "float" of 10 to 40 euro on your card that's fine. I'd say most occasional users wouldn't go for that though.

Personally, I understand why it is the way it is. Maybe they could improve on the 24-36 hour delay business. It should be possible to load from some locations immediately after topping up online and if there was a definitive list of these places, that would help.

Padraig Mor

plodder wrote: »

So long as you don't mind a permanent "float" of 10 to 40 euro on your card that's fine. I'd say most occasional users wouldn't go for that though..

Exactly. I might use mine a handful of times a year, and I ain't giving CIE my money in the meantime.

Dial Hard

plodder wrote:

So long as you don't mind a permanent "float" of 10 to 40 euro on your card that's fine. I'd say most occasional users wouldn't go for that though.

Padraig Mor wrote:

Exactly. I might use mine a handful of times a year, and I ain't giving CIE my money in the meantime.

More than worth it for the convenience, imo.

Dravokivich

Padraig Mor wrote: »

It's a ridiculous setup really. I have a Leap card but only use it very occasionally so auto top up is pointless. Have an Android phone but no NFC so no app for me. So did an online topup recently whereby I knew I would be in Cork and travelling from the train station - but would not be near any Payzone outlet in the city (there's not that many really). Firstly of course it's apparently 24 - 36 hours before you can even collect your credit. Then it's not clear whether you can collect your credit from the machines / validators in Cork train station - some sources imply you can but others say Dublin only - so rule that out in case I end up stuck in the train station (which of course doesn't have a Payzone outlet) unable to collect my credit. I then go to my local Payzone outlet (in a Cork county town) only to find their machine doesn't work, and never had. Eventually I had to drive to Mahon Point to collect it - which rather defeated the purpose!

If you select Irish Rail as a collection point for Credit, anywhere they have validators live with Leap should allow you to claim it. But using a validator means you are starting/ending a journey, so no use if you just want to get your credit.

Padraig Mor

Dravokivich wrote: »

If you select Irish Rail as a collection point for Credit, anywhere they have validators live with Leap should allow you to claim it. But using a validator means you are starting/ending a journey, so no use if you just want to get your credit.

I would have been starting a journey so that would have been fine - but some of the material on the Leap / IE sites say that you can only collect it at machines in the short hop zone in Dublin and I wasn't going to take the chance on being stuck unable to board the train in Cork - especially as I then wouldn't be able to collect it at a Payzone agent.

Xterminator

Padraig Mor wrote: »

It's a ridiculous setup really. I have a Leap card but only use it very occasionally so auto top up is pointless. !

its your usage pattern - that is the issue.

top up the card; keep an eye on the balance and top up (at your convenience) before it runs out. that way you wont be left at home with no balance. simples.

If you let it run out, then you have made a mistake.

Carawaystick

Dravokivich wrote: »

If you select Irish Rail as a collection point for Credit, anywhere they have validators live with Leap should allow you to claim it. But using a validator means you are starting/ending a journey, so no use if you just want to get your credit.

Can you use the ticket machine at IÉ stations to collect credit? instead of the validator?

L1011

I believe not. It definitely didn't work when I tried it after the validators had failed to update in the morning (were updated by the evening, but I'd topped up again as I was in negative by then).

Be well and win

Carawaystick wrote: »

Can you use the ticket machine at IÉ stations to collect credit? instead of the validator?

Yes you can, the Leap website says any validator/gate or ticket machine. However in order for you to be able to pick it up, Irish rail have to push the top up out to their devices and it's possible that on this occasion, they have had some delays and failed to do so

De Bhál

ok I'm trying to top up Leap card online and I've got to the two drop down options - first one = Select travel Operator - I select dublin Bus
Next drop down = Select Travel ticket - Nope i don't see the option for just plain old top up the card.

Where's the option I need, just stick money on the bloody card.

plodder

De Bhál wrote: »

ok I'm trying to top up Leap card online and I've got to the two drop down options - first one = Select travel Operator - I select dublin Bus
Next drop down = Select Travel ticket - Nope i don't see the option for just plain old top up the card.

Where's the option I need, just stick money on the bloody card.

It's pretty confusing all right. You use that page to top up credit or travel tickets and the questions about operator and ticket only apply to travel tickets.

Ignore them if you are only adding credit. Go straight to load location.

De Bhál

plodder wrote: »

It's pretty confusing all right. You use that page to top up credit or travel tickets and the questions about operator and ticket only apply to travel tickets.

Ignore them if you are only adding credit. Go straight to load location.

Thanks, yeah in the end I just topped up at a shop. My blood pressure was starting to rise dealing with that website.

Commotion Ocean

Peregrine wrote: »

I don't think you understand what the Leapcard is. It's not like a phone powered by a battery connected to a network. It's just a card. It has no way of knowing that you topped up online.
.

Why can't the card reader on the bus or the tag on / off reader for Luas act as a collection point too?

That was you are tagging on and collecting your top up at the same time.

TheChizler

No guaranteed network connection for a mobile device basically.

TheChizler

No guaranteed network connection for a mobile device basically.

LXFlyer

dfeo wrote: »

Why can't the card reader on the bus or the tag on / off reader for Luas act as a collection point too?

That was you are tagging on and collecting your top up at the same time.

Ticket machines don't have enough memory to cope with a live connection.

ED E

Its a huge compromise in the system to allow for offline readers (such as the ones luas inspectors carry). The old "Smart" cards were Mifare classic which was cracked once some clever dutch lads spent some time at it, now they're mifare DES but if somebody successfully MITMs the connection and sniffs the key then they can re-write their credit at will(or their tag on/off status).

The pragmatic answer is that even if enthusiasts were to do it the % loss would be tiny but all it takes is an app and every rooted android device could fare evade. Still probably rare, but poor from a design perspective.

plodder

ED E wrote: »

Its a huge compromise in the system to allow for offline readers (such as the ones luas inspectors carry). The old "Smart" cards were Mifare classic which was cracked once some clever dutch lads spent some time at it, now they're mifare DES but if somebody successfully MITMs the connection and sniffs the key then they can re-write their credit at will(or their tag on/off status).

The pragmatic answer is that even if enthusiasts were to do it the % loss would be tiny but all it takes is an app and every rooted android device could fare evade. Still probably rare, but poor from a design perspective.

I'd imagine the key doesn't leave the mifare chip.

Bray Head

Padraig Mor wrote: »

I have a Leap card but only use it very occasionally so auto top up is pointless.

I have Lead card which I use occasionally and this is EXACTLY why I have auto top-up.

ED E

plodder wrote: »

I'd imagine the key doesn't leave the mifare chip.

With MFC at least the reader stores the key but must use it to "unlock" the cards content, if you capture that transmission then boom you are a "reader"(and thus a writer).

plodder

ED E wrote: »

With MFC at least the reader stores the key but must use it to "unlock" the cards content, if you capture that transmission then boom you are a "reader"(and thus a writer).

I'm not familiar with the details of the system. So I can't say whether it is secure or not, but I'd be really surprised if it was like that. (ie. Leapcard which is DESfire EV1, rather than NFC in general)

Considering that you have to be online to write to the card, suggests to me that the DES keys (for writing) stays on the chip and in some secure location on the server. The server and card exchange some computation using random numbers and the secret key, but you generally can't reuse the same computation more than once, and it doesn't reveal any information about the key to the Android device or anyone else who might be listening to the conversation.

It's believable that read access to the card might use hardcoded keys in software though it's interesting that the Android app also needs to be online for read access as well. The devices used by the Luas inspectors might have hardcoded read keys, but that seems a reasonable tradeoff to me.

The hack which compromised the old Mifare classic used a side-channel attack by measuring power consumption (or something) but the EV1 has not been compromised in this way (afaik).