Willie Mullins and Gigginstown split.

Johner

60 horses removed from Wille Mullins.

https://twitter.com/RacingPost/status/781058162933706752

Earendil

Holy jaysus balls. If a batch get sent to Tizzard (if he has any rrom left!) PCs bet at 50s will look a lot better.

krustydoyle

Id say Henry and Gordon are gonna play a game of rock paper scissors for Apples Jade

Peintre Celebre

Earendil wrote: »

Holy jaysus balls. If a batch get sent to Tizzard (if he has any rrom left!) PCs bet at 50s will look a lot better.

I'd say it's about 50:1 that he gets a single one. But he (Willie) has been pushed out for the British title, won't do my bet any harm

rosknight

Will Colm Murphy do a u turn??

zpehtsfd

You can bet Gordon Elliot will be getting all the better ones. No secret that the O'Learys want to help him become Champion Trainer. Lump on!!!

finbarrk

There was a bit of a rumour in Cheltenham last year that O'Leary wasn't happy with Willie regarding the addition/non addition of a 'supplement' to the feed.

paddy no 11

finbarrk wrote: »

There was a bit of a rumour in Cheltenham last year that O'Leary wasn't happy with Willie regarding the addition/non addition of a 'supplement' to the feed.

Dont suppose you'd PM a fella any details of that rumour?

BumperD

That his hilarious news. Very funny

diomed

Are all fees paid up to date?

TheRiverman

Could this be compared to an airport authority putting up landing fees?:rolleyes:

diomed

I have previous on invoicing.

lemush

Fantastic news for Irish racing.

Lt Dan

Give them all to Gordon Elliott!! Sure he has won them a Gold Cup and many more races .

Wow! Falling out with the Irish Champion Trainer. Bloody hell .Whatever the fees are it is peanuts to him.

I think Mullins is entitled to make some money considering the amount he has won for owners

Lt Dan

TheRiverman wrote: »

Could this be compared to an airport authority putting up landing fees?:rolleyes:

That is what I thought

Well, I know a good horse makes a trainer and jockey, but this is one fight that O'Leary might not win. Mullins will be okay , JP McManus might send a few to him now even if O'Brien Junior is the next big thing. And sure many of his bigger money wins were with the Ricci's

Still, for a while , O'Leary would have Elliott train a horse until a certain point and then transfer him to Mullins. That would annoy the hell outta me if I was Elliott

krustydoyle

So the horses are been divided up between

Elliott
Meade
De Bromhead
O Brien
Morris

Lt Dan

krustydoyle wrote: »

So the horses are been divided up between

Elliott
Meade
De Bromhead
O Brien
Morris

O'Brien, as in Joseph.? Wow, He is already making a name for himself. Didn't they get rid of Sandra Hughes?

Andalucia

Sandra Hughes and Tony Martin no longer train for Gigginstown - results not up to standard last year

Joseph already had some young horses for Gigginstown, won't want to put all his eggs in the JP basket, so will gladly welcome some more

can only be good for racing

they can say what they like, this has nothing much to do with fees, more to do with fact that O'Leary felt like a syndicate member in his treatment from Mullins in comparison to how Ricci was treated in that stable

Huntley

Ouch. The loss of training fees and prize money probably means his book will be down €1 million for this season alone. Work your way upwards from that.

convert

The list probably isn't all that surprising, maybe other than Joseph considering he's only had his trainer's licence since early June (although he has been doing well!).

Andalucia

Don Poli and Apples Jade gone to Elliott

Gordon must know how to keep Eddie sweet

Lt Dan

Andalucia wrote: »

Sandra Hughes and Tony Martin no longer train for Gigginstown - results not up to standard last year

Joseph already had some young horses for Gigginstown, won't want to put all his eggs in the JP basket, so will gladly welcome some more

can only be good for racing

they can say what they like, this has nothing much to do with fees, more to do with fact that O'Leary felt like a syndicate member in his treatment from Mullins in comparison to how Ricci was treated in that stable

Makes complete sense. Can't see how there is no threat of conflict of interest, real or perceived.Someone is going to get a bit jealous

Please note, I have no doubt that Mullins treats all his horses and owners with the same great attention and strives for all to win.

I never understood how guys like Andre Fabre, as brilliant as he is as a trainer was able to get horses from Coolmore (as few as there are now) AND from actual rivals like Juddmonte and Godolpin in a same season , not to mention the odd Niarchos and the usual horses from the other French familes. Same with John Gosden he has trained horse from all three owners in the same season - Obviously they are judged by results

Lt Dan

Andalucia wrote: »

Don Poli and Apples Jade gone to Elliott

Gordon must know how to keep Eddie sweet

Gold Cup will do that wouldn't it? Delighted for Elliott

longshotvalue

Andalucia wrote: »

Don Poli and Apples Jade gone to Elliott

Gordon must know how to keep Eddie sweet

Its all about the Jade, rest of em wont even be missed (well in comparison to what other ones he has in his stable). Ruby must be delighted, no more on the second pick of willies.

Lt Dan

convert wrote: »

The list probably isn't all that surprising, maybe other than Joseph considering he's only had his trainer's licence since early June (although he has been doing well!).

Would the trainers be charging different rates ? Or is there a standard rate and add whatever else a horse needs?

Anyway, why not try him? Who else was there? Get them young. He has shown that he can do well . Although in his father's name, they did win a Cheltenham Group 1 and Joseph was credited with doing the work. He also has a nice Group 1 on the flat , as you know

Speaking of trainers, where the hell have Paul Nolan gone to ?

Imhof Tank

Andalucia wrote: »

Sandra Hughes and Tony Martin no longer train for Gigginstown - results not up to standard last year

Joseph already had some young horses for Gigginstown, won't want to put all his eggs in the JP basket, so will gladly welcome some more

can only be good for racing

they can say what they like, this has nothing much to do with fees, more to do with fact that O'Leary felt like a syndicate member in his treatment from Mullins in comparison to how Ricci was treated in that stable

That's pathetic if true. Rich has his entire string with Willie and leaves it all to himself and Ruby. Totally different dynamic with the Gigginstown set up with their horses spread across so many other yards.

Id say they just tried a low ball volume discount deal on the training fees and Willie didn't blink. Fair play to him.

Imhof Tank

Huntley wrote: »

Ouch. The loss of training fees and prize money probably means his book will be down €1 million for this season alone. Work your way upwards from that.

You'd wonder. Short term surely he could fill those 60 empty boxes pretty quickly, (whatever about replacing quality with quality which will be the difficult part)

Motivator

Imhof Tank wrote: »

Id say they just tried a low ball volume discount deal on the training fees based and Willie didn't blink. Fair play to him.

Mullins said on ATR that he raised his fees and O'Leary said he wasn't paying them. Fair play to O'Leary.

Imhof Tank

Lt Dan wrote: »

Gold Cup will do that wouldn't it? Delighted for Elliott

He played a long game as well taking on a huge number of Gigginstown pointers in the last couple of years, most of the good ones going on to Willies. Never heard him even hint at a complaint that he was starting these promising horses only to have them moved on. Shrewd.

Andalucia

must say I was surprised that Mullins had 60 in training from them - granted, he was getting a lot of the P2P that Elliott had and had a lot of their runners in bumpers, but 60 is a huge amount of horses

I wonder if this will will see O'Leary scale things back a little - must have 300 horses in training at the moment

Mullins won't lose much sleep over it I'm sure, plenty of other big owners, even if it looks to be all about Ricci - I would say Apples Jade will be the one he'll really miss, could be top class

still 60 horses won't be replaced overnight - interesting times ahead for Irish NH, could end up with some Gigginstown only races

Imhof Tank

Motivator wrote: »

Mullins said on ATR that he raised his fees and O'Leary said he wasn't paying them. Fair play to O'Leary.

Time will tell which of them made the right call, but I would be on Willie's side.

Look at what he's won for O'Leary and the others, he is absolutely entitled to back himself and try for the return he feels he is worth from his business.

Lt Dan

Imhof Tank wrote: »

He played a long game as well taking on a huge number of Gigginstown pointers in the last couple of years, most of the good ones going on to Willies. Never heard him even hint at a complaint that he was starting these promising horses only to have them moved on. Shrewd.

Exactly, I think even Matt Chapman called O'Leary out on that last winter. Elliott won a novice race and O'Leary said that he would they then be sent to Mullins the following season. Not sure I would take to kindly to that arrangement.

Imhof Tank

Andalucia wrote: »

I wonder if this will will see O'Leary scale things back a little - must have 300 horses in training at the moment

Yes think you could be on the right track there.

I know Michael likes his racing but for Eddie it seems mostly a business thing. He is very busy with his flat breeding and pinhooking operation so if he lost interest then I could see MOL drifting out of it.

He has been quite downbeat about Don Cossack's injury - saying openly he doubts he will be back on the track. Then there was the immediate post race retirement of the national winner. He came into the game and got very big very suddenly - could go out the same way.

Andalucia

I wonder if the Faugheen betting and BHA investigation have something to do with this - ok,Mullins might not be involved directly, but he should have been on airwaves as soon as there was a question around Faugheen running in Cheltenham, shouldn't be someone with info from his stable laying sizable bets

Mullins and his treatment of punters with regard to running plans is a complete joke - in comparison to how open Paul Nicholls deals with media for example

BumperD

Says something when you would rather let one of the biggest owners walk out of the yard than compromise. This won't be the last time this happens if he stays on that vein. His fees are already the top in the country. Foolish in the extreme .

convert

Lt Dan wrote: »

Would the trainers be charging different rates ? Or is there a standard rate and add whatever else a horse needs?

Anyway, why not try him? Who else was there? Get them young. He has shown that he can do well . Although in his father's name, they did win a Cheltenham Group 1 and Joseph was credited with doing the work. He also has a nice Group 1 on the flat , as you know

Speaking of trainers, where the hell have Paul Nolan gone to ?

Didn't intend for my post to come across as a criticism of Joseph or his abilities. He has clearly proven he's got potential with his winners (and other runners) since June, and (unofficially (i.e. in everything but name due to not being able to get his licence in time due to the fact he was in Australia for the 'meeting' in which to get his licence)).

Does Mullins give a discount per horse or an overall deal to bigger owners, does anyone know?

Lt Dan

Imhof Tank wrote: »

Yes think you could be on the right track there.

I know Michael likes his racing but for Eddie it seems mostly a business thing. He is very busy with his flat breeding and pinhooking operation so if he lost interest then I could see MOL drifting out of it.

He has been quite downbeat about Don Cossack's injury - saying openly he doubts he will be back on the track. Then there was the immediate post race retirement of the national winner. He came into the game and got very big very suddenly - could go out the same way.

What stallions and mares do Gigginstown have for the flats?

Lt Dan

convert wrote: »

Didn't intend for my post to come across as a criticism of Joseph or his abilities. He has clearly proven he's got potential with his winners (and other runners) since June, and (unofficially (i.e. in everything but name due to not being able to get his licence in time due to the fact he was in Australia for the 'meeting' in which to get his licence)).

Does Mullins give a discount per horse or an overall deal to bigger owners, does anyone know?

Do not worry, I never got the impression that you were critical or dismissive of O'Brien, you made that clear.

Australia? To get a licence? or you mean meeting with potential owners like Llyod Williams ? Sorry I am lost

convert

Lt Dan wrote: »

Do not worry, I never got the impression that you were critical or dismissive of O'Brien, you made that clear.

Australia? To get a licence? or you mean meeting with potential owners like Llyod Williams ? Sorry I am lost

He couldn't meet with them as, if I remember correctly, Joseph was riding abroad the day the Licensing Committee had scheduled to meet with those who had applied for licenses and completed the relevant course.

longshotvalue

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Mulljns had a fair idea that raising fees would annoy o'leary, and maybe he has another plan ready to go to fill those boxes with horse's from with a new or existing owners. More than likely existing owners.

kerryguy78

I think Mullins is a great trainer and fair play to him but it's seems to be a dominance him and ruby have over the big races. Nice to see Joseph o Brien having success.

Anyone know when geraghty is back from injury he has not done a great job filling McCoys boots, is this just down to bad luck?

Having said that Bryan cooper didn't have a great run lately either

Lt Dan

kerryguy78 wrote: »

I think Mullins is a great trainer and fair play to him but it's seems to be a dominance him and ruby have over the big races. Nice to see Joseph o Brien having success.

Anyone know when geraghty is back from injury he has not done a great job filling McCoys boots, is this just down to bad luck?

Having said that Bryan cooper didn't have a great run lately either

Geraghty has had two serious consecutive season ending injuries in the last two years afaik

Sure Mark Walsh won on Carlingford Lough in the Irish Gold Cup while Geraghty who rode him twice previously picked the wrong horse

Funny one. Geraghty banged in the wins for JP win AP picked the wrong horses and now he is the man, things haven't been great. Suppose Jezki was not around last season either. Is he coming back?

kerryguy78

Yea mark Walsh has pipped geraghty a few times. The one thing about geraghty he is an absolute gent so I like to see him do well, ruby on the other hand not so friendly. I'm also a big fan of Davy Russell

Lt Dan

kerryguy78 wrote: »

Yea mark Walsh has pipped geraghty a few times. The one thing about geraghty he is an absolute gent so I like to see him do well, ruby on the other hand not so friendly. I'm also a big fan of Davy Russell

Hard for anyone to say anything bad about Davy. Always seemed to ,eh, doubt himself and kick himself too hard when things didn't go well. He has been retained by an owner in England, so we will see more of him over there this season.

Anyone see the TG4 brilliant documentary "Jump Boys", (on youtube) It was filmed around the year Davy won his first title. Easily the star of the show.

BG , had the pleasure of meeting him. Gent. Great jockey, actually my favourite , pick him over Ruby or McCoy

allthedoyles

Huntley wrote: »

Ouch. The loss of training fees and prize money probably means his book will be down €1 million for this season alone. Work your way upwards from that.

Back to the money for a minute - I reckon the yard gets about €15k per horse per annum in training fees .

Now If a jockey gets 10% for winning a race , how much does trainer get ?

flutered

has not two high profile young trainers closed down their yards recently, stating that they were loosing money yearly

convert

allthedoyles wrote: »

Back to the money for a minute - I reckon the yard gets about €15k per horse per annum in training fees .

Now If a jockey gets 10% for winning a race , how much does trainer get ?

Trainer also gets 10%. I've taken the following from the HRI 'Owners Guidelines' booklet:

Prize Money Deductions:

Gross prize money won €7,000
Entry and declaration fee €100.00
SEBS (3%) & SSA (.10%) €210.00
Jockey Emergency Fund €70.00
Trainers Share €661.30
Jockeys share €661.30
Net gain to owner €5,290.40

http://www.itm.ie/AssetLibrary/Files/ITM2013/Owning/OWNERS%20GUIDE.pdf

Andalucia

flutered wrote: »

has not two high profile young trainers closed down their yards recently, stating that they were loosing money yearly

compare this to Elliott, a self made man, built a massive operation, only training 10 years, and now going to be the biggest NH trainer in Ireland - horses and owners flocking to him, because he can cater for all types of owner and horse - from Perth and Ayr to the big NH festivals, he gets results

more to training than finances, you must have a hunger and ability like Elliott has, after that the finances look after themselves

poor Patrick Mullins will miss some of the steering jobs that Gigginstown have provided him in bumpers

Imhof Tank

Lt Dan wrote: »

What stallions and mares do Gigginstown have for the flats?

Not Gigginstown.

Eddie's operation - Lynn Lodge Stud. Very active at the yearling and breeze up sales.

I said

Must be something in paying the fees with o learys,The margins must be very tight if Colm Murphy couldn't make it pay.
Mullins is his own man if he wasn't the yard would be full of McManus and o Leary horses.
Frank berry would be telling him where and when to run the horses and o Leary would expect him to train every sixth horse for free.
Elliot will have the best of the 60 horses.
Meades numbers will increase though not necessarily quality.
Morris will tip along with what he gets.
O Brien and de bromhead will probably be under the most pressure to deliver.

finbarrk

convert wrote: »

Trainer also gets 10%. I've taken the following from the HRI 'Owners Guidelines' booklet:

Prize Money Deductions:




http://www.itm.ie/AssetLibrary/Files/ITM2013/Owning/OWNERS%20GUIDE.pdf

They forgot to include the jockeys riding fee. €140-€170.