WW2 rifles

Brasros

The gun is not restricted the calibre is because it is over .30 cal.

You could a k-98k in a 30-06 ( Norwegian capture) for example.

gunny123

Grolschevik wrote: »

As a matter of interest, does anyone know why these in particular have been singled out?

Its what happens when people who do not know what they are talking about, and too arrogant to ask advice of those that do, make up laws, in this case firearms laws.

When i applied for a lever action .38spl rifle, i was told it was restricted, it would be unlikely i would be granted a cert without a court appeal, but i would get an unrestricted cert however. This means a rifle with about 500 ft/lbs muzzle energy is verboten where as a .300 win mag with 3500 ft/lbs is unrestricted !

When i explained this to the officer taking the application, i got a shrug of the shoulders and told "well they are the rules".

P.s, while not a "ww2 rifle", but a milsurp, the swiss straight pull k31 is a delight and a really well made bit of kit. If i were buying a military rifle, it would be the one i would go for.

tac foley

gunny123 wrote: »

P.s, while not a "ww2 rifle", but a milsurp, the swiss straight pull k31 is a delight and a really well made bit of kit. If i were buying a military rifle, it would be the one i would go for.

...and Prvi Partizan make a reasonable job of ammunition to suit.

tac
www.swissrifles.com

Brasros

gunny123 wrote:

When i applied for a lever action .38spl rifle, i was told it was restricted, it would be unlikely i would be granted a cert without a court appeal, but i would get an unrestricted cert however. This means a rifle with about 500 ft/lbs muzzle energy is verboten where as a .300 win mag with 3500 ft/lbs is unrestricted !

The lever action .38 sp is restricted but if you show reason and put in place the conditions they look for I see no reason why it would not be granted, the problem for me is that one chief superintendent will grant one under basic restrictions while another looks for everything and more.

tac foley

gunny123 wrote: »

P.s, while not a "ww2 rifle", but a milsurp, the swiss straight pull k31 is a delight and a really well made bit of kit. If i were buying a military rifle, it would be the one i would go for.

You'll note that I wrote 'WW2-era'.

In service from 1932 until 1957, the K31 qualifies here.

tac

Brasros

gunny123 wrote:

P.s, while not a "ww2 rifle", but a milsurp, the swiss straight pull k31 is a delight and a really well made bit of kit. If i were buying a military rifle, it would be the one i would go for.

The k-31 is a great rifle and well built, there is a beauty going for sale at the moment with the extras. The 7.5x55 is not the easiest ammo to source.

gunny123

Brasros wrote: »

The 7.5x55 is not the easiest ammo to source.

That could be a problem alright, you should horde as much as possible for when the russians kick off.

BattleCorp

gunny123 wrote: »

.

When i applied for a lever action .38spl rifle, i was told it was restricted, it would be unlikely i would be granted a cert without a court appeal, but i would get an unrestricted cert however. This means a rifle with about 500 ft/lbs muzzle energy is verboten where as a .300 win mag with 3500 ft/lbs is unrestricted.

I'm not sure from your post if you actually got the .38 spl rifle after but if the Gardaí gave you an unrestricted licence for a .38spl rifle, then they made a mistake.

And it's a mistake that would lead you into trouble and not them. The onus is on you to have the correct type of licence for the firearm and the .38spl is most certainly restricted.

There are some crazy laws out there.

gunny123

BattleCorp wrote: »

I'm not sure from your post if you actually got the .38 spl rifle after but if the Gardaí gave you an unrestricted licence for a .38spl rifle, then they made a mistake.

And it's a mistake that would lead you into trouble and not them. The onus is on you to have the correct type of licence for the firearm and the .38spl is most certainly restricted.

There are some crazy laws out there.

No, i was told an application for a restricted rifle was unlikely to be granted, so forget the .38 and buy something "smaller" and unrestricted like a .30-06, .308 etc.

Its something that the various shooting orgs should highlight to the minister/doj. Even if rifles over .308 were still restricted, but an exception made to rifles chambered for .38spl/.357mag, .44spl/mag and .45lc, it would make shooting gallery so much easier, not to have to jump through endless pointless hoops to get a licence.

BattleCorp

gunny123 wrote: »

No, i was told an application for a restricted rifle was unlikely to be granted, so forget the .38 and buy something "smaller" and unrestricted like a .30-06, .308 etc.

Its something that the various shooting orgs should highlight to the minister/doj. Even if rifles over .308 were still restricted, but an exception made to rifles chambered for .38spl/.357mag, .44spl/mag and .45lc, it would make shooting gallery so much easier, not to have to jump through endless pointless hoops to get a licence.

You were fobbed off with incorrect information.

I know plenty of lads who got licences recently for .38 lever action rifles. I got one myself. Once you are a member of a range and put down target shooting as your reason, then I don't see why an application wouldn't be granted.

That said, the Chief Superintendent did make me go over the top with the security arrangements but once I did as instructed there was no problem.

Grizzly 45

tac foley wrote: »

I apologise for thread-drifting, and will try hard not to engage in any form of politicing.

Whinemeal - here is a list of long arms that can reasonably be expected to qualify as having been used in the era of WW2, of the kind that we are all permitted to own. With the exception of the previously-noted semi-autos and ANY model of bolt-action Mauser in German or Austrian service [these are restricted in Irish firearms law] -
tac

Like said previously.it is still UNCLEAR whether pre 1950 designs[for some obscure reason] will be exempted or not from this. It's 50/50 at this stage. And if people want to shoot gallery rifle with M1 carbines either in 30 cal or[ and keeping with the pistol calibre spirit the Chiappa 9mm M1].Making some noise about this in GPRAI,FCP/DOJ and all the other alphabet soup organisations we have here MIGHT be a good idea.

gunny123

BattleCorp wrote: »

You were fobbed off with incorrect information.

I know plenty of lads who got licences recently for .38 lever action rifles. I got one myself. Once you are a member of a range and put down target shooting as your reason, then I don't see why an application wouldn't be granted.

That said, the Chief Superintendent did make me go over the top with the security arrangements but once I did as instructed there was no problem.

I wasn't fobbed off, but having just gone through a very acrimonious interview with a very unpleasant chief super, for my centrefire pistol, i wasn't going to go through all that again, just to be refused and having to go and get a solicitor and all that rigmarole.

Brasros

tac foley wrote:

Semi-auto centrefires, of which I had eight, including your M1 Garand, have been prohibited firearms here in UK since 1988. You, on the other hand, CAN have them, even if it means a certain amount of hoop-jumping.

Can these not be got under a section 5?

tac foley

Brasros wrote: »

Can these not be got under a section 5?

Nope. For the ordinary Joe like me, the term 'Prohibited firearm' continues to mean what is says. However, for people in the trade of buying and selling arms, and by this I don't mean the usual gun-dealer here, the provisions of the Section 5 license are granted -

This is an excerpt form the present Firearms Act in UK -

Notes:
Because of the specially dangerous nature of prohibited weapons and ammunition, applications are subject to the most rigorous scrutiny.

The application may only be granted if you meet the following criteria:

1. there is demonstrable evidence of a regular and substantial amount of trade or prospective business in prohibited weapons/ammunition or you are able to demonstrate some other, genuine, need; and

2. you will comply with stringent security standards commensurate with the threat posed by the weapons/ammunition to be held; and

3. you are a fit and proper person of good character suitable to be entrusted with prohibited weapons/ammunition.

Needless to say, there is a whole lot more following....

I know of one two major players in Section 5 firearms - Helston Gunsmiths in Cornwall and Harry Gordon on Canvey Island Both are regular dealers of large amounts of Section 5 items, as well as the Section 7 firearms that some people here on mainland UK are permitted to own, but not to keep. You'll need to look that aspect of firearms ownership up by yourself, as we are now getting away from the subject of the thread.

tac

jb88

gunny123 wrote: »

I wasn't fobbed off, but having just gone through a very acrimonious interview with a very unpleasant chief super, for my centrefire pistol, i wasn't going to go through all that again, just to be refused and having to go and get a solicitor and all that rigmarole.

You don't need a solicitor in most cases for this,(If you do then it costs a lot and may not help) I had an issue with a CS and it was resolved through dialogue and knowing what is in the law, it took 5 months but it was resolved.

I have known many refused CF Underlevers only to have them granted later, and others who have had difficulties only to have them resolved at a later stage. Speak to your club members and others with these licences and put as much information on and in with your application as possible.

2 club members have had CF Underlever licences granted recently, not a problem if you follow the gardai recommendations.

BattleCorp

jb88 wrote: »

You don't need a solicitor in most cases for this,(If you do then it costs a lot and may not help) I had an issue with a CS and it was resolved through dialogue and knowing what is in the law, it took 5 months but it was resolved.

I have known many refused CF Underlevers only to have them granted later, and others who have had difficulties only to have them resolved at a later stage. Speak to your club members and others with these licences and put as much information on and in with your application as possible.

2 club members have had CF Underlever licences granted recently, not a problem if you follow the gardai recommendations.

Myself and another clubmate had the same 5 conditions placed on us before we were granted our licences. All were security related. Once I did what was asked of me, then there was no problem.

gunny123

jb88 wrote: »

You don't need a solicitor in most cases for this,(If you do then it costs a lot and may not help) I had an issue with a CS and it was resolved through dialogue and knowing what is in the law, it took 5 months but it was resolved.

I have known many refused CF Underlevers only to have them granted later, and others who have had difficulties only to have them resolved at a later stage. Speak to your club members and others with these licences and put as much information on and in with your application as possible.

2 club members have had CF Underlever licences granted recently, not a problem if you follow the gardai recommendations.

Perhaps, but this was at the time when the gardai simply stopped granting licences for centrefire pistols, and we were being told they were going to go. The c/super i had the delight of meeting was unbelieveably rude and intractable. I would not meet with one again unless i had a solicitor or other legal advice to hand.

tac foley

Your 'rude and intractable' police officer had obviously forgotten that a police officer of any rank, yes, even including Chief Superintendent, is still a public servant, paid by the state to serve the community. That is why police officers are taught to say 'Sir' and 'Ma'am'.

tac

Grizzly 45

Us Irish don't really do respect or common courtsey to the citizenery very well at all.God help us,if they had to like the French cops after finishing any busisness with its citizens actually salute them!Very unnerving that when it happens to you the first time.:cool: Even in the US,you could be arrested at a riot after burning down a few shops and be kissing the pavement as they cuff you,they will still address you as "Sir or Mam"

tac foley

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, our local dealer has a line-up of totally awesome long Lee-Enfields, dating around 1897 up to 1911. These beautiful old rifles are much sought-after over here and are pretty pricey, but what a find they are, TBS! More details by PM, since I don't want to do any Irish dealer out of business.

PS - he also has a goodly number of K31 and three or four K11 and a single IG Model 1900.

tac

gunny123

tac foley wrote: »

Your 'rude and intractable' police officer had obviously forgotten that a police officer of any rank, yes, even including Chief Superintendent, is still a public servant, paid by the state to serve the community. That is why police officers are taught to say 'Sir' and 'Ma'am'.

tac

Take a look at todays irish news regarding the moj/gardai/whistleblowers, tac and then tell us about the gardai. A law unto themselves in many ways, since the founding of the state. Also remember for many years here it was "garda policy" that dictated what firearms you could licence here.

tac foley

Since joining in here a few years back, and remembering incidents from my own childhood vacations in Co. Wicklow, it is very apparent that there are three ways of doing things -

1. The right way.

2. The wrong way.

3. The Gardaí way.

Sometimes you guys get lucky and have a co-operative super, but it is altogether too clear that many times you do not, and have to recourse to the justice of the courts to uphold the laws of the Firearms Act. Or not. As far as firearms law is concerned, sometimes you're the pigeon, but all to often you're the statue.

An urgent and wide-ranging overhaul of the Act is way overdue, with its out-dated Victorian attitudes and susceptibility to 'interpretations' in what is intended to be a republican democracy, rather than any kind of a police state. It has been said before, maybe not here, but there are twenty-six different versions of the Act in force, one for each county, instead of a countrywide/unified set of requirements and conditions that are used to serve all legal gun-owners.

The chances, as a visiting foreigner, of running foul of the present Irish gun law when in charge of my own legal firearms is one of the reasons why the RoI and I will remain strangers, as far as coming over and shooting are concerned, for the foreseeable future.

tac

gunny123

Back on topic, who here sells milsurp rifles ? What sort of money do the likes of lee enfields, mausers etc run ?

tac foley

Apart from John over at Fingal Sports Naul, there are a few who sell the guns, but sadly, it seems less that sell the ammunition. We have Prvi Partizan to thanks for making just about every single military cartridge below .45-70 as a reasonable alternative to the almost defunct milsurp sales of yesteryear - .303, for instance, is almost totally gone from sale in Europe these days.

Prices are dependent of the popularity of the type, with Lee-Enfields leading by a huge margin even at eu400 and up. For some reason, even though they are not strictly-speaking, WW2-involved, Swedish Mausers [the older m/96 long rifle and the somewhat shorter m/38] remain very popular, possibly because of the availability of civilian manufacture ammunition of the correct bullet weight of 139/140gr. They are often astonishingly accurate, even more so in sharpshooter variant [m/41b] but the price premium is huge, as is the same variant cost of the Lee-Enfield, the No4(T).

With no known historic connection in Ireland, any of the Meso- and South American Mauser and Mauser contract rifles in 7x57 are good to go as far as ammunition availability is concerned, but the Persian variants - German-Mauser built or FN-licence-built in Teheran, are in 8mm Mauser, and therefore restricted. They are probably among the finest military long arms ever made at any time, I have a Teheran-built rifle and matching bayonet in Oregon that could have been made yesterday, and a Venezuelan contract version that makes them all look like complete clunkers. Even the fully-machined spring-loaded muzzle cover is a work of mechanical art by itself.

The same goes for Japanese, French and the Swiss IG Model 1900/K11 and K31 - ammunition is hard to find unless you have a VERY friendly dealer who will import it on your behalf - again PPU make it all.

Mosin-Nagants of all kinds are agricultural, but are capable of fine accuracy, providing you stay well clear of the corrosive military surplus stuff AND the Barnaul steel-cased fodder unless you are happy spending an hour or so scrubbing out the bore. The AK-variants, voodoo guns here in Western Europe, have hard-chromed bores and piston assemblies in recognition of this foible of Soviet-era ammunition production.

The Norwegian Springfields and the Israeli Mauser Kar98[K], converted to .308Win, as well as the Ishapore Lee-Enfields - actually made from scratch in 7.62x51/.308Win are good buys - the latter a lot more common than the former.

Anybody who has an interest in this kind of challenging fun-shooting should make the effort to take a trip over to the Kingdom and spend some time with the gentlemen of the VCRAI, whose main range is An Rioch. A peek at the VCRAI website - www.vcrai.com - will reveal the next range day.

Talk to Mick O'Connor or Eamon Tynan, or anybody there for that matter. Tell 'em I sent you!

tac

PS - just to reinforce my point - any of the rifles/carbines converted to shoot 7.62x51 NATO may not be totally reliable with a constant fodder of civilian/commercial .308Win, which is actually of markedly higher operating pressure than the military stuff due to a combination of case design and bullet weight. We are used, over here, to seeing the Ishapore guns proofed here in UK to safely shoot commercial ammunition. IOW, if your gun of this kind came from a source that does NOT proof ex-military firearms before sale to the public, you are advised to stick to the 147/150gr military surplus stuff.

Grizzly 45

[QUOTE=tac foley;101266837
The chances, as a visiting foreigner, of running foul of the present Irish gun law when in charge of my own legal firearms is one of the reasons why the RoI and I will remain strangers, as far as coming over and shooting are concerned, for the foreseeable future.
tac[/QUOTE]

Just to show how paranoid/crazy it was back then.As a youngster one of my first jobs was an apprentice gamekeeper/dogsbody/farm hand on Dromoland estate in Clare in the 1980s.At the time people did come into hunt from the EU [or EEC as it was then known] for the fallow deer on the estate and brought their own rifles with them.I remember members of the local Gardai with NPWS rangers being delegated as security escort for these stalkers!!!:)
What was the thinking behind this?Send an unarmed garda out on a shooting party with a ranger in case the local PIRA man was lurking in the estate forest to aquire a deer rifle?? :P
I do hope and think we have got a bit better since those utterly crazy times.

what is intended to be a republican democracy, rather than any kind of a police state

You would wonder sometimes,what were the firearms laws in this land like when the post boxes were painted red instead of green?It seems sometimes that ours state organs seem to have aquired all the nastier traits of the shower they removed by force of arms.

gunny123

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

You would wonder sometimes,what were the firearms laws in this land like when the post boxes were painted red instead of green?It seems sometimes that ours state organs seem to have aquired all the nastier traits of the shower they removed by force of arms.

It was not any better really, the Westminster government was worried about the Irish getting uppity, and their own getting bolshie. There was the 1843 Irish registration act as you can see below on David Strouds excellent blog about Irish fireams. Interestingly under this act it was found that there were over 300,000 firearms in the hands of the Irish, mainly Anglo Irish i presume, back then. But there had been previous gunlaws in Ireland dating back to the 1670's.

http://ramrodantiques.blogspot.ie/2016/02/arms-bill-1843-registration-act.html

http://ramrodantiques.blogspot.ie/2015/11/irish-registration-act-1843.html

http://ramrodantiques.blogspot.ie/2015/11/early-gun-controls-ireland.html

http://ramrodantiques.blogspot.ie/2016/05/limerick-irish-registration-act-of-1843.html

http://ramrodantiques.blogspot.ie/2016/09/1843-registration-act-forms-h-i.html

Grizzly 45

Great blog that.Very intresting .:)

tac foley

Quote - 'He did not suppose that any person would dispute the first part of this motion that any British subject had a right to carry arms. To restrict that right would be to subvert the principals of public liberty.'

Those were the days, eh?

When we had the Bill of Rights, and it carried weight.

tac

Grizzly 45

Seven "cannons" registerd in Rathkeale Co Limerick.. Things must have been as bad out there then as they are now in certain parts of that town.:D:D

gunny123

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Seven "cannons" registerd in Rathkeale Co Limerick.. Things must have been as bad out there then as they are now in certain parts of that town.:D:D

Yup, until a certain demographic nicked them for scrap iron. Its an excellent blog, and hopefully someday David will make a book out of the information he has collected. He comes over and searches for any information he can find on irish gunmakers and the laws surrounding them.