PV/supply issue

mrawkward

Just looking at PV for the first time. read a lot about Uk electricity meters going backwards in the case of excess/unused microgeneration power to house demand. Does this happen here?

KCross

Ireland, unlike the UK, does not have a Feed In Tariff.
i.e. when you have excess power it goes into the grid and you get paid for it.

Until the ESB introduce a FiT in Ireland, Solar PV doesnt make alot of sense.

mrawkward

KCross wrote: »

Ireland, unlike the UK, does not have a Feed In Tariff.
i.e. when you have excess power it goes into the grid and you get paid for it.

Until the ESB introduce a FiT in Ireland, Solar PV doesnt make alot of sense.

What if the excess produced turns your meter backwards? DIY FIT?

KCross

mrawkward wrote: »

What if the excess produced turns your meter backwards? DIY FIT?

I dont know for sure but I suspect the newer digital meters wont go backwards like that.

Maybe if you have one of the older analog type meters it might but I also suspect ESB would take a dim view of you feeding electricity back to them without their approval. It would be considered fraud or tampering.

mrawkward

Not sure about fraud from a legal standpoint. It could be contended that you are only lending it to them and taking it back later and paying for the net power taken from their supply. Anyone know the definitive legal position/law?

KCross

mrawkward wrote: »

Not sure about fraud from a legal standpoint. It could be contended that you are only lending it to them and taking it back later and paying for the net power taken from their supply. Anyone know the definitive legal position/law?

It is illegal without their prior approval. They own the network and you are not entitled to pump electricity into their network without approval.

They did have a trial FiT a few years ago but its not open to new entrants. So, they have looked at it and some people in Ireland do have it.

If it was legal to do what you say Solar PV would be taking off in this country. Lack of FiT is holding it back.

Also think of it this way.... if you feed electricity in during the day you are reducing your bill by the higher day rate (16c/kWh) and then you could pull it back out at the lower night rate.... thats a loss to the ESB. Thats not just a case of you lending it to them. They are not in the business of losing money. It's illegal.

mrawkward

KCross wrote: »

It is illegal without their prior approval. They own the network and you are not entitled to pump electricity into their network without approval.

They did have a trial FiT a few years ago but its not open to new entrants. So, they have looked at it and some people in Ireland do have it.

If it was legal to do what you say Solar PV would be taking off in this country. Lack of FiT is holding it back.

Also think of it this way.... if you feed electricity in during the day you are reducing your bill by the higher day rate (16c/kWh) and then you could pull it back out at the lower night rate.... thats a loss to the ESB. Thats not just a case of you lending it to them. They are not in the business of losing money. It's illegal.

I don't have a night rate meter, so point is moot. You say illegal, fact or opinion? Please substantiate.

KCross

https://www.esbnetworks.ie/new-connections/generator-connections/connect-a-micro-generator

You can apply to connect but you will be giving the electricity to them for free until such time as a provider gives you a FiT (which none do at present for new entrants)

You cant unilaterally decide to turn your own meter backwards. You have to apply and be sanctioned and a new import/export meter installed. See step 3.

mrawkward

My understanding is that current authorised installation practice is to dump excess power into an immersion water heater. I will have to check if the import/export meter is still a mandatory requirement, unless someone on here can clarify! The link refers to 2009 documentation... thing do evolve...

KCross

You dont have to have the import/export meter but it would make sense to get it if you are going to the trouble of installing a Solar PV system so that "when" FiT is available you can avail of it. FiT requires the import/export meter.

If you dont install the meter then your excess electricity just gets fed into the network and thats that, its gone. Obviously you would try to use as much of it yourself first via whatever means.... heating water is a good means of using electricity but there is only so much hot water you can use.

I'd suggest you run the numbers first though... how much does it cost to buy/install. How much of it will you use yourself and then what is the return on your investment.

Its generally accepted that domestic Solar PV doesnt make sense without a FiT, but runs the numbers for yourself.

mrawkward

As you will have deduced my boards.ie moniker is in the right field! though I would probaly have been better to select mrcontrarian.

So if I have my divert/dump to an immersion, no import/export meter, and the thermostat kicks it out.. the excess goes back via the meter into the grid, my old style electro mechanical meter will turn the opposite way (wind back). I have an air/water heat recovery unit for heating, so most likely the issue would only arise in warmer summer times.

mrawkward

Towards the end of this page.... http://www.aei.ie/solar-pv-explained A man after my own heart!!!

KCross

mrawkward wrote: »

Towards the end of this page.... http://www.aei.ie/solar-pv-explained A man after my own heart!!!

It is of course technically possible, just not allowed/approved and if ESB find out Im sure they will cut you off for that.

Take for instance if they have cut the power to your house to carry out works on the line or to connect another house nearby and you are feeding electricity back into the line.... you could electrocute one of their staff as the line wont be dead.

At this point all I can say is, do as you see fit(pun intended!).

mrawkward

But if you are in FIT scheme, it is OK to electrocte them? Survival of the FITtest!

Seriously, I am getting some quotes including from EI. I now have some more eductated or at least informed questions to ask. I dont buy my power from EI

KCross

mrawkward wrote: »

But if you are in FIT scheme, it is OK to electrocte them? Survival of the FITtest!

No, the certification ensures that the system you put in detects a dead line and does not feed in any electricity when that happens.

I guess thats why they have an approval process. You have to show what system you are installing, what certification it has and then they will give approval.

Nothing stopping you ignoring all that and install your reverse meter system! If you can find someone to signoff on that and willing to stand over it, then best of luck with them.

KCross

mrawkward wrote: »

Seriously, I am getting some quotes including from EI. I now have some more eductated or at least informed questions to ask. I dont buy my power from EI

It doesnt matter who you buy the power from. We all get our power from ESB Networks and its them you have to get approval from and its them who own/put in the meter

Who you pay for the electricity is your choice and its the provider (EI, Airtricity etc) who give the FiT. EI were the only ones to provide one but as I said, not to new entrants anymore.

mrawkward

Just read spec for an ABB inverter... requires grid power present to output, for safety reasons. I guess the need/ ESB spec for the immersion hook up is to stop meter going backwards!! The less scupulous might fit an on/off switch inline........

KCross

Some back of an envelope figures (and others can give more accurate figures)....

If you have a 2kWp system that generates 1700kWh's of electricity per year it would save you about €260/yr assuming you used ALL of it or even managed to reverse your meter! Its unlikely you will use all of it so you save even less.

Whats the paypack on that going to be when you take purchase/installation costs into account? I'd be interested to hear what quotes you get.

As I said, run the numbers and see how many years it takes to pay for itself.

mrawkward

First price in 3.5kWp €6.5k ex VAT

KCross

mrawkward wrote: »

First price in 3.5kWp €6.5k ex VAT

What kWh do they project that that will generate per year? 3000kWh's ish?

Lets assume you get the VAT back via the home improvement scheme so the buy/install cost to you is €6.5k

You'll save about €450/yr, assuming you use all of it, which is not a realistic assumption. Payback is ~14 years (best case). Reality will be longer.

If you had a FiT giving you 9c/kWh of unused electricity it would make a huge difference and particularly since you said you have a Heat Pump which are power hungry when they are running.

mrawkward

Hence reverse rotation is the ultimate fit!

mrawkward

OK, let's do the numbers here...real numbers. I have cash, my budget is 5k, that could get me about €17 after DIRT and PRSI at current deposit rates but could save me about €500 pa in fuel costs which equates to roughly €1000 in pretax income. Payback is a different number in real life costs!

rolion

I really enjoy it the conversation... constructive !
You're right and wrong at the same time.

Just completed a DIY project which after getting all installed and powered green at the invertor...the numbers told me to fcuk off and forget the renewables' maths rubbish.

For any of you getting on the renewables train...a hidden tax on the most peculiar hobby .... have fun and lots of patience !

KCross

mrawkward wrote: »

OK, let's do the numbers here...real numbers. I have cash, my budget is 5k, that could get me about €17 after DIRT and PRSI at current deposit rates but could save me about €500 pa in fuel costs which equates to roughly €1000 in pretax income. Payback is a different number in real life costs!

I'd say your fuel savings will be well below the €450. I was giving best case scenario. You don't really pay 50% tax as a good portion of your income is at lower rates. You need to work out your overall tax rate from your P60. It's likely to be closer to 35% or less unless you are on a 6 figure salary(in which case you don't need justification, just do it).

The majority of the electricity will be generated during the day when the house is not using a lot of electricity. You need to generate it in the evenings when you boil the kettle and the heat pump kicks in etc. A lot of the power you generate will just be wasted without a FiT.

Taking that and the lower tax rate into account your payback is still too long(10+ yrs), IMO.

You could invest your 5k somewhere besides bank deposit. Picking that as your justification is a poor argument.

You seem to have made up your mind though.

KCross

rolion wrote: »

I really enjoy it the conversation... constructive !
You're right and wrong at the same time.

Just completed a DIY project which after getting all installed and powered green at the invertor...the numbers told me to fcuk off and forget the renewables' maths rubbish.

For any of you getting on the renewables train...a hidden tax on the most peculiar hobby .... have fun and lots of patience !

Would you mind sharing the spec and costs of what you did?

Presumably if it was done DIY you have everything done at good value with no middle men. It would be interesting to see if it stacks up in that case.

quentingargan

I have seen this happen and some very old meters spin backwards. You are obliged to notify ESB of your intention to install a system by filling in the MCS form. Once that is done, it could be agrued that you now have permission.

When the system is installed, you are not obliged to install a new meter. You can PAY for a smart meter(€350) but I don't see why you would.

Eventually the plan is to re-introduce the FIT, possibly in 2018, this will make solar PV a lot more viable but it shouldn't stop there, grants should also be available. And not only that but the runt installers should be weeded out fast with their work inspected after.

Dumping solar PV into the immersion is a complete and utter waste if you don't need it, you can only heat/use so much hot water, that's like people installing solar hot water panels and having a 300 L tank with hot water sitting there most of the year when they most likely have a solid fuel or central heating system which will heat the water anyway.

A better way to use solar PV without a FIT is to use the tesla powerwall (battery storage) and while it may not be the most cost effective it means much more of your energy can go to your own storage for when you need it for cooking, heating the water , electric heating etc. You can only use so much hot water.....

The problem with the powerwall is that in Winter you don't generate so much and on certain days you may struggle to charge it all and the other extreme is that in Summer you'll generate vastly more than you can store in a day, probably 2-3 times the power wall, (depending on power wall Kwh and Solar PV Size)

The most ideal solution is a FIT, this way every Kwh of solar PV output goes to the grid which is you "Unlimited" "FREE" battery, all that excess goes to the grid and you buy it back when you need it.

Even more ideal is a hybrid system of wind and solar PV, the wind still blows at night. My Partners parents in Germany use the solar PV for the storage heating, they send all the excess to the grid and buy it back for the heating and house consumption in winter. They can generate up to 75 Kwh on a Summer day from 14 Kwp.

It's important to size the solar PV as close to your needs as possible and then when a FIT is reintroduced you can expand.

The ESB are looking at many ways to use renewable energy including using electric vehicles as storage and to be able to use some of this storage at certain times.

In Japan you can use the EV to power your house, If I had this option and a larger battery in the Nissan Leaf I could charge at work and power the house for the night from the work electricity.

quentingargan

Deleted User wrote: »

A better way to use solar PV without a FIT is to use the tesla powerwall (battery storage) and while it may not be the most cost effective it means much more of your energy can go to your own storage for when you need it for cooking, heating the water , electric heating etc. You can only use so much hot water.....

I completely agree with your post, and using electricity to heat water is completely wrong from an environmental perspective, because you are losing the primary energy conversion factor (that it takes 2.2kw of oil or gas to generate 1kw of electricity).

However, the powerwall costs about 15c per KwHr when you take into account the cost of the battery and the number of cycles. The grid is, by far, the best battery for domestic situations.

quentingargan

quentingargan wrote: »

I completely agree with your post, and using electricity to heat water is completely wrong from an environmental perspective, because you are losing the primary energy conversion factor (that it takes 2.2kw of oil or gas to generate 1kw of electricity).

However, the powerwall costs about 15c per KwHr when you take into account the cost of the battery and the number of cycles. The grid is, by far, the best battery for domestic situations.

Yes the power wall option isn't the most cost effective "yet" but it will in the next few years, but by then I expect the FIT to be reintroduced.

In Spain (certain parts maybe not) and similar latitudes, while they may not get as much daylight hours in Summer they will get a bit more in Winter but the greatest difference is you can predict a lot easier the amount of Kwh you need because they get a lot of direct sunlight. So you can say, I get xx amount of direct sunlight per day on average therefore I need xx amount of Kwp of solar.

In Ireland and similar latitudes it's a lot more unpredictable and the difference between Summer and Winter daylight hours is a lot and in Ireland the weather patterns are extremely unpredictable but you can base your system on the average amount of Kwh per M2 by using the online calculators.

Here's just one I can find at the minute. http://pvwatts.nrel.gov/pvwatts.php

As you can see the AC generated power expected based on the average amount of Solar PV per M2 for december with a 4 Kwp system is 115 Kwh for December to 495 Kwh for July, this of course could be more or less.

The total is a quiet respectable 3,575 Kwh per year. I need about 2,400 or so for the house per year. To power the Leaf I need (based on last years data for 26,663 Kms) 4,693 Kwh, though half my work commute is free with work charging...... and I get several Kwh free at the public charge points so in reality I probably pay for less than 2,000 Kwh. Amazing....

So for me probably the best saving I made was going EV, or maybe not because a car is a depreciating asset however if buying new the savings are substantial.

Anyway the point being that if in July you can generate 495 Kwh in that month then you need to be able to store around 16.5-17 Kwh per day on average. That's a big powerwall...... Now if you generate around 82 Kwh average for December then that would be about 2.7 Kwh so while storing December's energy isn't difficult lets look at March, 291 Kwh, this would generate an average of 2.7 Kwh per day, so you'll easily store this.

404 Kh for April, 13.5 Kwh per day, so I would say a good 7 Kwh of powerwall would suit a 4 KwP Solar PV system quiet well.

we're only allowed 5 Kwp on single phase in Ireland anyway. But as solar gets cheaper and cheaper we should be allowed to put more onto the grid, but we can't because our grid is ancient and we don't have 3 phase like most other European countries.

A wind Turbine could provide a lot of energy in Ireland, but the cost is ridiculous, but even a 1 Kw turbine has a lot of potential in Ireland. Kestrel I Believe being well suited to Ireland.

The average expected with 5 Kwp is 4,469 Kwh per year for Ireland.

For 7 Kwp would be 6,258 Kwh per year.

quentingargan

Deleted User wrote: »

we're only allowed 5 Kwp on single phase in Ireland anyway. .....

A wind Turbine could provide a lot of energy in Ireland, but the cost is ridiculous, but even a 1 Kw turbine has a lot of potential in Ireland. Kestrel I Believe being well suited to Ireland.

You can export up to 6kw, and it is common practice to under-size an inverter by up to 20%, so you could put up 7.5KwP of panels and a 6kw inverter and you'd be OK.

I really like the Kestrel turbines, but whatever way you cut it, PV is a lot cheaper per KwHr and requires no maintenance over its lifetime. Once the FIT was marked down in the UK, sales of small turbines ground to a halt, but even without a FIT, solar PV comes closest to making sense.

Solar is cheap but if possible a turbine, even 2 Kw can generate a lot of energy and the supply is more constant. As I said a hybrid system is always best.

4 Kwp of solar and a 2 Kw Turbine and you will have a lot of electricity in the year.

Grants and a FIT would help kick start a lot of job creation but I suspect there won't be a grant.

My idea eventually is to run storage heaters, provided a FIT is available, it means I can sell all the excess when I don't need heating and buy it back when I do need it.

The only problem in Ireland is our single phase domestic supply and I have the EV so I would need 3 phase, the EV will pull 6.6 Kw from the mains alone. Currently I have a 3.3 Kw EVSE but when I move I'm upgrading to the more powerful 7 Kw.

My current daily average demand is 17.5 Kwh per day for the house and the car, work charges the car so half of that commute is free when I get a longer range EV in 2018 with 350-400 kms work will do all my commute for free so I will need less at home.

quentingargan

Deleted User wrote: »

The only problem in Ireland is our single phase domestic supply and I have the EV so I would need 3 phase, the EV will pull 6.6 Kw from the mains alone. Currently I have a 3.3 Kw EVSE but when I move I'm upgrading to the more powerful 7 Kw.

My current daily average demand is 17.5 Kwh per day for the house and the car, work charges the car so half of that commute is free when I get a longer range EV in 2018 with 350-400 kms work will do all my commute for free so I will need less at home.

I have a Citroen C-zero (rebadged Mitsubishi Miev). I have PV and wind, but I also get the old Electric Ireland export tariff of 9c.

My take on this is that even with my solar during the day, it is more ecologically sound to charge my car at night using the cheap off-peak rate and export for my 9c during the day. I think it is also cost neutral. Generally there is a fair amount of surplus power at night.

I think it will depend on whether there is a PRODUCTION tariff as used in the UK (which for some daft reason is called a FIT) or an EXPORT tariff as we have here. I think the export tariff encourages better conservation and I hope that is the version adopted again.

Converting electricity to heat without a heat pump is quite wasteful because you are losing its primary energy value. Heat can also be produced from oil or gas for about 9c per KwHr, so provided the export value is at or above that, (as it is in my case) there really is no point.

air

I'd have to wholeheartedly agree with you Quentin, an export tarriff is far sounder from an ecological perspective.
It grinds my gears to see UK users on huge FIT premiums using PV diverters to divert to hot water that often goes unused because they begrudge any export to the network.
The adminsitration of their scheme is also a shambles with all sorts of needless nonsense and administration. A simple export rate is all that's required with the home owner certifying that the energy is coming from the specified source - solar, wind or whatever.
I'm also on the 9c scheme, generally export 2000kWh per annum and import 1000kWh and self consume the balance of production. I also have solar thermal for domestic hot water. Currently have 4kWp of PV, that will be up to 6.7kWp before Chistmas when I add an East facing array. I should have a nice even output with East (2.75kW) , West (2.45kW) and South (1.47kW) facing arrays then.

KCross

quentingargan wrote: »

I think it will depend on whether there is a PRODUCTION tariff as used in the UK (which for some daft reason is called a FIT) or an EXPORT tariff as we have here. I think the export tariff encourages better conservation and I hope that is the version adopted again.

air wrote: »

I'd have to wholeheartedly agree with you Quentin, an export tarriff is far sounder from an ecological perspective.
It grinds my gears to see UK users on huge FIT premiums using PV diverters to divert to hot water that often goes unused because they begrudge any export to the network.

Could either of you explain the UK system to me.
I thought FiT was a simple concept here where you have an import/export meter and you get "reimbursed" for anything you export. Simple.

How is it different in the UK? Why is it different? Why would someone begrudge any export to the network if they are getting paid for it?

Is it that they get paid to produce renewable energy and what they do with it is up to them? If yes, thats mad!

quentingargan

KCross wrote: »

Could either of you explain the UK system to me.
I thought FiT was a simple concept here where you have an import/export meter and you get "reimbursed" for anything you export. Simple.

How is it different in the UK? Why is it different? Why would someone begrudge any export to the network if they are getting paid for it?

Is it that they get paid to produce renewable energy and what they do with it is up to them? If yes, thats mad!

Yes - it is mad. Early solar installations got paid 45p to produce electricity. Lately that has fallen to 12p and I think now goes to about 4.5p. In addition, they get a smaller payment for export, but the incentive was for production.

This spawned numerous devices designed to prevent any export by dumping all surplus power into heaters around the place. Some folks getting £50 a day for putting absolutely nothing into the grid. :mad:

air

Quentin is spot on, the majority of the payment was for production not export. On top of this, there was no universal requirement to install export meters, and some people are paid for "deemed export", so they're geting paid for production and another little bit for the export. People are spending hundreds on often unnecessary diverters just to avoid losing out on even this export because it's unmetered and they get paid for it whether they export it or not. You can even get paid for production for off grid installations.

Their requirements on certification of equipment and suppliers / installers is totally over the top also and only serves to push up prices and increase costs through added administration.

They have another scheme called the "Renewable Heat Incentive" which subsidises people to heat their homes with wood boilers etc. which is even worse. Some people with huge houses are litterally getting tens of thousands of pounds in subsidies to heat their mansions at the tax payers expense, absolute insanity.

KCross

quentingargan wrote: »

Yes - it is mad. Early solar installations got paid 45p to produce electricity. Lately that has fallen to 12p and I think now goes to about 4.5p. In addition, they get a smaller payment for export, but the incentive was for production.

This spawned numerous devices designed to prevent any export by dumping all surplus power into heaters around the place. Some folks getting £50 a day for putting absolutely nothing into the grid. :mad:

air wrote: »

Quentin is spot on, the majority of the payment was for production not export. On top of this, there was no universal requirement to install export meters, and some people are paid for "deemed export", so they're geting paid for production and another little bit for the export. People are spending hundreds on often unnecessary diverters just to avoid losing out on even this export because it's unmetered and they get paid for it whether they export it or not. You can even get paid for production for off grid installations.

Their requirements on certification of equipment and suppliers / installers is totally over the top also and only serves to push up prices and increase costs through added administration.

They have another scheme called the "Renewable Heat Incentive" which subsidises people to heat their homes with wood boilers etc. which is even worse. Some people with huge houses are litterally getting tens of thousands of pounds in subsidies to heat their mansions at the tax payers expense, absolute insanity.

And why would the government or electric providers decide to do it this way? There must be some method to the madness.

Maybe they wanted to create mass adoption initially with the intention of phasing back to export tariff once they hit a particular sales target, which is what they did by reducing the production tariff? Maybe there is a grand plan?!

air

air wrote: »

I also have solar thermal for domestic hot water. Currently have 4kWp of PV, that will be up to 6.7kWp before Chistmas when I add an East facing array. I should have a nice even output with East (2.75kW) , West (2.45kW) and South (1.47kW) facing arrays then.

So how accurate is the calculator I posted in the previous post when it calculated an average of 3,500 Kwh generated a year with 4 Kw/p ?

air

Hard to see what the sense behind it was at all really. A generous tarriff to drive adoption is fair enough and it achieved this aim to some extent but the whole thing should always have been focused on rewarding export and not consumption. A bit like the SEI schemes here though, adding some unnecessary administration probably helped to justify the existence of plenty of unnecessary staff.
Simple policies can be highly effective but don't create any jobs for pen pushers and administrators.
They could have achieved the same deployment objectives with generous tarriffs for metered export that were guaranteed for a certain period but it wouldn't have required any administration overhead.

The Electric Ireland scheme here, limited as it was, was well run. You submitted sensible paperwork describing the hardware for the installation and a standard ESB connection agreement form with RECI cert. After that the meter is remotely read and you are paid for the export annually.

air

Deleted User wrote: »

So how accurate is the calculator I posted in the previous post when it calculated an average of 3,500 Kwh generated a year with 4 Kw/p ?

It's fine but probably assumes a due South roof.
PVGIS is probably the most used calculator and takes account of your precise location, roof slope and orientation.
Not many houses will have scope for 4kW of PV facing due South.
Also, given the low FIT rate, the value of units can vary based on your usage pattern.
For example, my system would generate more total kWh per year if it was all facing due South but my self consumption will be higher as a result of having 3 panels that together ensure good production throughout the day.
My current system means I won't pay anything for electricity this year. I only get paid half my electricity cost for my export but I export twice what I import so they cancel each other out.
When I expand the system this year it should help eliminate a good portion of my standing charges also. My annual total cost for electricity should go down to less than €50 per year.
I have a battery storage system too which I may start using more next year to increase my self consumption further.

KCross

air wrote: »

Hard to see what the sense behind it was at all really. A generous tarriff to drive adoption is fair enough and it achieved this aim to some extent but the whole thing should always have been focused on rewarding export and not consumption. A bit like the SEI schemes here though, adding some unnecessary administration probably helped to justify the existence of plenty of unnecessary staff.
Simple policies can be highly effective but don't create any jobs for pen pushers and administrators.
They could have achieved the same deployment objectives with generous tarriffs for metered export that were guaranteed for a certain period but it wouldn't have required any administration overhead.

The Electric Ireland scheme here, limited as it was, was well run. You submitted sensible paperwork describing the hardware for the installation and a standard ESB connection agreement form with RECI cert. After that the meter is remotely read and you are paid for the export annually.

That EI system sounds simple alright. Lets hope that gets opened up sooner rather than later.

The import/export meters they installed here, were they the smart meter variety which "phoned home" their data (i.e. SMS type system) or how was the meter read?

air

KCross wrote: »

The import/export meters they installed here, were they the smart meter variety which "phoned home" their data (i.e. SMS type system) or how was the meter read?

Remotely read vis built in GSM modem, the same as lots of commercial meters.

quentingargan

quentingargan wrote: »

I have a Citroen C-zero (rebadged Mitsubishi Miev). I have PV and wind, but I also get the old Electric Ireland export tariff of 9c.

My take on this is that even with my solar during the day, it is more ecologically sound to charge my car at night using the cheap off-peak rate and export for my 9c during the day. I think it is also cost neutral. Generally there is a fair amount of surplus power at night.

I think it will depend on whether there is a PRODUCTION tariff as used in the UK (which for some daft reason is called a FIT) or an EXPORT tariff as we have here. I think the export tariff encourages better conservation and I hope that is the version adopted again.

Converting electricity to heat without a heat pump is quite wasteful because you are losing its primary energy value. Heat can also be produced from oil or gas for about 9c per KwHr, so provided the export value is at or above that, (as it is in my case) there really is no point.

You're lucky, I thought they stopped the FIT altogether ?

I work shift so it would be nice to be able to charge the car with some solar or wind when I work nights and sleep during the day.

This would be the plan, sell all the excess during the day and buy back for heating/charging etc.

I do feel that while a Heat Pump would be a good option the cost to make the house air tight and insulated to the standard would be just mental for an older house. We haven't moved in yet but the BER is C and as suggested on another thread the heat pump would be running practically all the time.

So rather than spend 20 odd grand on a heat pump that I could possibly (depending on site survey) make good use of a 3 Kw Turbine or maybe 2 Kw turbine and 3-4 Kwp solar. A turbine has potential to generate a lot of energy in Ireland. All that excess would go to the grid when not needed and bought back in the colder months on night rate to run storage heaters. Heat pumps while they sound good are expensive with a limited life.

As I said previously, the car charging at 6.6 Kw will practically half the house supply so I'd need upgraded single phase or 3 phase with storage heaters.

It's all just something I'm thinking about , without feed in tariff it makes a lot less sense, a guaranteed lifetime fit is what is needed, what do you do after 10-15 years for instance if they no longer pay you for exported energy ?

Then I have the thoughts about a wood pellet stove, however I'm not a fan of burning things for heat, wood pellets emit dangerous particle matter though far cleaner than turff, coal and briquettes I still don't like it.

air

Forget about spending 20 odd grand on a whole house heat pump.
Put in a split aircon system for 3 or 4 grand that will put out 3 or 4kW of heat to your main living area. Simple install - mount the outdoor unit on the wall nearest the indoor unit ideally, power to the outdoor unit and 2 or 3 small holes in the wall.

PV makes sense now even without a FIT for a small system IMO, self consumption and diversion to an immersion give an acceptable payback for a small system of say 1.5kW if you are home during the day. Thankfully most new homes have PV now anyway to meet Part L requirements.
Other than working at height & the final electrical connections it's a very simple DIY project to retrofit it.

I'll have to spend the winter in the house to see how the heat fairs out, the previous owners have a oil stove in the kitchen living area, Bottled gas supplying the sitting room open fire and then oil boiler heating rads.

A wind turbine while expensive should provide more energy per kw installed. PV is a lot cheaper, no FIT means I can't power storage heaters at night and probably wouldn't have much energy in winter anyway and way too much in Summer when I don't need the heating.

IMO a FIT is essential, all that excess in the warmer months goes to the grid for buy back in Winter.

air

Forget about wind turbines. You live in an urban area, it won't produce anything other than noise and annoyance for you and your neighbours.
I'd guesstimate there are probably less than 5000 homes in the country with viable sites for micro wind turbines.

FIT is definitely essential to the adoption of renewables.

Ditch the bottled gas and the open fire. Bottled gas is almost exactly the same price per kWh as daytime electricity in Ireland.
So you'd be better off removing the fire, sealing the fireplace and using an oil filled radiator than burning the LPG.
Less draughts and less chance of carbon monoxide poisoning too!

air

air wrote: »

Forget about wind turbines. You live in an urban area, it won't produce anything other than noise and annoyance for you and your neighbours.
I'd guesstimate there are probably less than 5000 homes in the country with viable sites for micro wind turbines.

FIT is definitely essential to the adoption of renewables.

Ditch the bottled gas and the open fire. Bottled gas is almost exactly the same price per kWh as daytime electricity in Ireland.
So you'd be better off removing the fire, sealing the fireplace and using an oil filled radiator than burning the LPG.
Less draughts and less chance of carbon monoxide poisoning too!

I won't be living in a housing estate for much longer. Will have a neighbour on one side about maybe 50 meters and the next neighbour will be maybe 200-300 meters away. Finally escape the concrete jungle lol.

I don't know what's considered a viable site ?, Ireland is a very windy spot, I'm not looking to install a commercial wind farm.

You could say Ireland isn't viable for Solar PV due to our fairly cloudy climate but it turns out it actually is viable. It's just not as productive as it would be in Spain for instance. Same with a turbine , Ireland is a great spot for wind turbines just those that don't live on the top of a hill won't produce as much as someone who does but it's still viable.

Anyway all things I won't be doing without a feed-in-tariff.

The LPG Fire would only heat the sitting room I suppose at times when you don't need to heat the whole house.

Wood pellets is another option that is reasonably priced but more work. But my plan is to emit as little PM and Nox as possible and Oil or wood pellets isn't the way to do this.

I'll need to spend a winter or two to see how much extra it's going to cost.

Heat pumps sound good but I think by the time you make a pay back that the heat pump will have reached end of life. At least storage heaters while not as efficient require no maintenance and if I can generate enough electricity won't matter how efficient it is, ok it matters, just not so much as if you're running it off night rate electricity only.

Storage heaters are a lot cheaper than making the house to the standard that a heat pump requires, the cost would be ridiculous.

quentingargan

There is almost nobody in Ireland selling small turbines, but if you take the UK, a 5kw turbine will cost about £25k. On a good site, it might produce 10,000 KwHrs. It will require at least bi-annual maintenance.

Ireland is windy, but a lot of sites aren't as good as they look. The blades of a turbine work on lift, like the sail of a boat rather than push (which is why a boat sails slower down-wind than beam-on). Turbulence plays havoc with this lift.

My house is on the side of a mountain overlooking the Atlantic, but trees some 100m from the turbine cause turbulence, and the wind going up the hill is non-horizontal, so because the tower is vertical, and the turbine is horizontal, it is always as if the turbine was facing slightly away from the wind.

While some may have objections, from a financial point of view, the most cost effective way to put wind on the grid is large wind turbines on mountain tops. But solar panels don't have such economies of scale. You can put panels on a shed roof for a lower cost per watt than you can build a solar park.

Provided the grid can buy your surplus, solar energy is more likely to be usefully used elsewhere during the day than wind is at night.

QED I think (from someone who works in the small turbine industry by the way, but just not in Ireland..)

air

Your analogy with the suitability of Ireland for PV vs wind turbines is a poor one, there is negligble site to site variation in the performance of PV from one location to another within Ireland (assuming no shading and the same sized arrays at the same orientation).
Wind on the other hand is hugely site dependent.
I just looked at 5 small wind turbines that I have remote access to. There is a factor of 3 difference between the best and worst producer over the past 12 months. All 5 turbines are mounted at a minimum of 30m above ground level - far higher than most domestic wind turbines are. The best one has a 27% capacity factor, the worst (on a poor site) less than 9%.

It's not good enough to have wind, you need clean wind.
The general rule of thumb is an absolute minimum of 10x the height of the turbine totally free of obstructions in all directions and preferably 20x the height in the direction of the prevailing wind.
Also wind turbines are a hobby in themselves, they take maintenance and attention to get a decent lifetime out of them.

Have you ever used a storage heater? They're absolutely rubbish.
You won't have much solar PV energy available for use during the months when you want heat. At least using a heat pump you are able to multiply this energy by a factor of 2 or 3 which may be enough to turn it into a useful amount of heat.

PM emmissions from a properly operating wood pellet boiler should be low and not a major factor if you are burning them in a rural area.

Personally if I was moving to a rural area I'd install a huge PV array - 20 or 30kW, on a ground mount or out building.
Doing it DIY and sourcing used panels it can be done quite cheaply. Even in winter it would produce a useful amount of energy. In summer it could be used for charging an EV or keeping an export meter spinning at full capacity for a large part of the day.