Holiday Allowance

guestaccount1

Got a question I want to ask. I work full time in IT but I work shift hours (4 days on 4 days off with each day being a 12 hour). So a full time worker that does a unusual shift.

According to my contract my holidays are:

You will be entitled to 187.5 hours of annual leave per year (in addition to statutory public holidays) in each calendar year, to be taken in 11 or 5.5 hour increments.

However just recently we were told we were only going to get the holidays if we are working on them. So now are going to loose a few days holidays from now on. This seems quite unfair as I work the same hours a week that some of the people are on (9-5:30 Mon-Fri). We do get a shift allowance to make up for working weekends. It also means that depending on what shift rotation you are on you may get more holidays than another shift.

I am going to contact the consumer affairs people tomorrow but I wanted another view.

I have a few questions that I am unsure of:

1) Are people that work say Tuesday -> Saturday week not entitled to bank holidays?
2) Can they force us to sign an updated contract? I have been told if you dont like it then you can leave

davo10

guestaccount1 wrote: »

Got a question I want to ask. I work full time in IT but I work shift hours (4 days on 4 days off with each day being a 12 hour). So a full time worker that does a unusual shift.

According to my contract my holidays are:

You will be entitled to 187.5 hours of annual leave per year (in addition to statutory public holidays) in each calendar year, to be taken in 11 or 5.5 hour increments.

However just recently we were told we were only going to get the holidays if we are working on them. So now are going to loose a few days holidays from now on. This seems quite unfair as I work the same hours a week that some of the people are on (9-5:30 Mon-Fri). We do get a shift allowance to make up for working weekends. It also means that depending on what shift rotation you are on you may get more holidays than another shift.

I am going to contact the consumer affairs people tomorrow but I wanted another view.

I have a few questions that I am unsure of:

1) Are people that work say Tuesday -> Saturday week not entitled to bank holidays?
2) Can they force us to sign an updated contract? I have been told if you dont like it then you can leave

This type of scenario always throws up a great deal of confusion. You are still being paid for the bank holiday in your wage even though you are not working it, you just aren't getting the additional days holiday if you did have to work it. Presumably if you had to work on the bank holiday you would get normal pay plus an extra holiday day in lieu. You are not working on it, but you are still being paid a full weeks wages, to also get an extra day enlieu would be receiving a double benefit.

guestaccount1

If I work the bank holiday/xmas/etc I get a day in lieu but there will be people that will end up getting more holidays because of how the shifts fall. Do people that work full time that never work Mondays never get a bank holiday allowance?

davo10

guestaccount1 wrote: »

If I work the bank holiday/xmas/etc I get a day in lieu but there will be people that will end up getting more holidays because of how the shifts fall. Do people that work full time that never work Mondays never get a bank holiday allowance?

I'm afraid I can't answer that, you are entitled to be paid for a bank holiday even though you don't work that day, I'm just not sure if you are entitled to be paid plus recieve an additional day holiday if you don't work it. I thought you got an additional day holiday if you actually work on the bank holiday. It's a bit confusing because of your shift pattern.

silent_spark

I think if you don't work the bank holiday you're entitled to one fifth of your standard week as public holiday benefit at a later stage. The 'standard' week is based on your recent working pattern.

silent_spark

Here's a useful link: http://employmentrightsireland.com/how-to-calculate-holiday-entitlements/

sfmcar

I believe you should bank a days holidays for any that you are due off

davo10

sfmcar wrote: »

I believe you should bank a days holidays for any that you are due off

That's the op's point, most fall on Mondays which he doesn't work. He is still getting paid a full weeks wages including the 1/5 entitlement for BH, but wants to know if he/she is also entitled to an extra days holiday. He gets the extra day if the BH falls Tuesday to Saturday and he works, but does he get extra day for a Monday that he doesn't work?

guestaccount1

That is interesting! Looks like they can't just swipe away half my "statutory public holidays". I will have to go through that link with a fine-tooth comb

guestaccount1

Exactly

For instance lets say my shift pattern is:

Thursday,Friday,Saturday, Sunday.

I am then off for Monday, Tuesday,Wednesday, Thursday to be back on shift on Friday

Now one of the shifts take over on Monday. Lets say thats a bank holiday. They will get that that day back as a holiday in Lieu. I am off so I don't get that day back so I am loosing a day's holiday (Note we both get a shift allowance)

Stheno

guestaccount1 wrote: »

Exactly

For instance lets say my shift pattern is:

Thursday,Friday,Saturday, Sunday.

I am then off for Monday, Tuesday,Wednesday, Thursday to be back on shift on Friday

Now one of the shifts take over on Monday. Lets say thats a bank holiday. They will get that that day back as a holiday in Lieu. I am off so I don't get that day back so I am loosing a day's holiday (Note we both get a shift allowance)

You are not entitled to the extra day if you don't work on the bank holiday. So if you never work a bank holiday you won't get extra days off. It's the way shift work works

dobsdave

If your scheduled day off happens to be a bank holiday, you get a day in lieu or an extra days pay.

davo10

guestaccount1 wrote: »

Exactly

For instance lets say my shift pattern is:

Thursday,Friday,Saturday, Sunday.

I am then off for Monday, Tuesday,Wednesday, Thursday to be back on shift on Friday

Now one of the shifts take over on Monday. Lets say thats a bank holiday. They will get that that day back as a holiday in Lieu. I am off so I don't get that day back so I am loosing a day's holiday (Note we both get a shift allowance)

But they are actually working on the bank holiday whereas you aren't. You still get paid your full weeks wages. The simpler scenario is of course a five day worker who doesn't have to work on the Monday still gets a full weeks wages just like you do, but gets an extra days leave only if they do work, you don't work so you still get paid but no extra day.

I doubt you are going to get a consensus answer here, best to ask citizens advice or Nera.

Stheno

dobsdave wrote: »

If your scheduled day off happens to be a bank holiday, you get a day in lieu or an extra days pay.

No you don't as you aren't working. You have to work the bank holiday to get extra pay or time off

davo10

Stheno wrote: »

No you don't as you aren't working. You have to work the bank holiday to get extra pay or time off

I think the op's question relates to the fact that he/she is working the equivalent of a five day week but the hours are condensed over a smaller number of days.

guestaccount1

So take 3 works doing the exact same job,paid the exact same, working the same hours but different days.

Worker A) Works Monday - Friday
Worker Works Tuesday - Saturday
Worker C) Works Wednesday- Sunday

So in this case workers B+C will never get a bank holiday and thus will get what 5/6 less days off a year for doing the same job?

Stheno

davo10 wrote: »

I think the op's question relates to the fact that he/she is working the equivalent of a five day week but the hours are condensed over a smaller number of days.

No I read it that previously he got an extra nine days off for bank holidays regardless of whether he worked them, and now the company are changing that so you only get the extra days off if you work the bank holiday itself.

So now going on say 20 days holidays per year and the nine for bank holidays op will now potentially get the twenty days unless he works every bank holiday

Nothing wrong with what the company are doing at all.

Stheno

guestaccount1 wrote: »

So take 3 works doing the exact same job,paid the exact same, working the same hours but different days.

Worker A) Works Monday - Friday
Worker Works Tuesday - Saturday
Worker C) Works Wednesday- Sunday

So in this case workers B+C will never get a bank holiday and thus will get what 5/6 less days off a year for doing the same job?

Yes as they are not working on the bank holiday, they have that day off instead

silent_spark

Stheno wrote: »

Yes as they are not working on the bank holiday, they have that day off instead

No. I don't think this is correct. I'm currently redrafting our staff handbook, and - according to the HRM company we've engaged - 'If the public holiday falls on a day which the Employee does not normally work, the Employee is entitled to one fifth of his/her normally weekly wage as a benefit in respect of the day'. This is line with what I previously would have thought, as another company I work with has a Tuesday-Saturday standard week and the one fifth rule is how we have been managing public holidays.

OP - bring the previous link I posted to your HR person / employer and ask them to double check, they may have made a mistake when drafting the new policy.

dobsdave

silent_spark wrote: »

Stheno wrote: »

Yes as they are not working on the bank holiday, they have that day off instead

No. I don't think this is correct. I'm currently redrafting our staff handbook, and - according to the HRM company we've engaged - 'If the public holiday falls on a day which the Employee does not normally work, the Employee is entitled to one fifth of his/her normally weekly wage as a benefit in respect of the day'. This is line with what I previously would have thought, as another company I work with has a Tuesday-Saturday standard week and the one fifth rule is how we have been managing public holidays.

OP - bring the previous link I posted to your HR person / employer and ask them to double check, they may have made a mistake when drafting the new policy.

This is correct, our HR dept was making the same 'mistake' until we contacted citizens advice.

Stheno

silent_spark wrote: »

No. I don't think this is correct. I'm currently redrafting our staff handbook, and - according to the HRM company we've engaged - 'If the public holiday falls on a day which the Employee does not normally work, the Employee is entitled to one fifth of his/her normally weekly wage as a benefit in respect of the day'. This is line with what I previously would have thought, as another company I work with has a Tuesday-Saturday standard week and the one fifth rule is how we have been managing public holidays.

OP - bring the previous link I posted to your HR person / employer and ask them to double check, they may have made a mistake when drafting the new policy.

Do you give them an extra day off too? That's the ops query, should he get the day off.

guestaccount1

Thank you for those links it looks like we are due those days and I have some ammunition when we have our meeting next week. Should be fun

mickmackmcgoo

Stheno wrote:

Yes as they are not working on the bank holiday, they have that day off instead

Incorrect . If your normal working week is Tuesday to Saturday and there is a bank holiday on that Monday, you only work four days that week or you get a day off another time. Every worker benefits from a bank holiday whether it's their working day or not

Stheno

mickmackmcgoo wrote: »

Incorrect . If your normal working week is Tuesday to Saturday and there is a bank holiday on that Monday, you only work four days that week or you get a day off another time. Every worker benefits from a bank holiday whether it's their working day or not

I don't believe that's the case that you are entitled to an extra day off, you are entitled to the one fifth pay as posted above but I can't see anywhere in the links that say you are entitled to that plus an extra day off?

mickmackmcgoo

Stheno wrote:

I don't believe that's the case that you are entitled to an extra day off, you are entitled to the one fifth pay as posted above but I can't see anywhere in the links that say you are entitled to that plus an extra day off?

You're over complicating it . There is no extra pay as such . Every worker is entitled to 9 bank holidays a year. So if you're working week is Monday to Friday you get the Monday off so you work 4 days and get paid for 5 . If you're week is Tuesday to Saturday then you are entitled to one of the days off so you work only 4 that week or make a local arrangement to take the day off another time . Shift patterns are different thing though

Stheno

mickmackmcgoo wrote: »

You're over complicating it . There is no extra pay as such . Every worker is entitled to 9 bank holidays a year. So if you're working week is Monday to Friday you get the Monday off so you work 4 days and get paid for 5 . If you're week is Tuesday to Saturday then you are entitled to one of the days off so you work only 4 that week or make a local arrangement to take the day off another time . Shift patterns are different thing though

Where did you get that information: have you a link to back it up?

guestaccount1

I cant see any reference in the links to shift workers. Do shift workers have less rights? I do work full week just on a shift.

F1ngers

mickmackmcgoo wrote: »

Shift patterns are different thing though

OP works shift, so anything not relating to shift work in this thread is pointless and useless to OP.

mickmackmcgoo

I used do 12 hour shifts . 4 days on 4 days off . One week of 4 was days 8 In morning to 8 at night. The next was 8 at night till 8 the following morning . If I was working a bank holiday Monday from 8 in morning till 8 at night. I would be paid double time for the day and also accumulate 8 extra hours holidays for a bank holiday. The double time was a local arrangement though and we were told by union that time and a half is the standard. If I started on Sunday night at 8 and worked till 8 Monday morning on bank holiday day I got nothing as the working day didn't start on the bank holiday it started the day before therefore there was no entitlement

mickmackmcgoo

Employees who qualify for public holiday benefit will be entitled to one of the following:

A paid day off on the public holiday
An additional day of annual leave
An additional day's pay
A paid day off within a month of the public holiday.

Organisation of working time act 1997.

dobsdave

Stheno wrote: »

mickmackmcgoo wrote: »

You're over complicating it . There is no extra pay as such . Every worker is entitled to 9 bank holidays a year. So if you're working week is Monday to Friday you get the Monday off so you work 4 days and get paid for 5 . If you're week is Tuesday to Saturday then you are entitled to one of the days off so you work only 4 that week or make a local arrangement to take the day off another time . Shift patterns are different thing though

Where did you get that information: have you a link to back it up?

http://employmentrightsireland.com/how-to-calculate-holiday-entitlements/

Scroll down to public holiday section.

Do you think we are making this up? I have already said I got this from citizens advice.

davo10

mickmackmcgoo wrote: »

Employees who qualify for public holiday benefit will be entitled to one of the following:

A paid day off on the public holiday
An additional day of annual leave
An additional day's pay
A paid day off within a month of the public holiday.

Organisation of working time act 1997.

We all know this, the op knows this, the question is how it applies to someone who doesn't normally work on Mondays but still gets paid for it, the question is, "is the op entitled to an additional day of leave on top on usual week wage even though he didn't actually work on the bank holiday"?

mickmackmcgoo

davo10 wrote:

We all know this, the op knows this, the question is how it applies to someone who doesn't normally work on Mondays but still gets paid for it, the question is, "is the op entitled to an additional day of leave on top on usual week wage even though he didn't actually work on the bank holiday"?

You and I know it but I think stheno has a different perspective. My answer to your question is the op accumulates an extra 8 hours holiday

davo10

mickmackmcgoo wrote: »

You and I know it but I think stheno has a different perspective. My answer to your question is the op accumulates an extra 8 hours holiday

I don't know.

Bassboxxx

I'm in this position.
If I work the BH I get double pay.
If I'm off on the BH I get a days TOIL.

silent_spark

davo10 wrote: »

We all know this, the op knows this, the question is how it applies to someone who doesn't normally work on Mondays but still gets paid for it, the question is, "is the op entitled to an additional day of leave on top on usual week wage even though he didn't actually work on the bank holiday"?

Answer: Yes. They are due an extra day off at another point OR a day's pay. (Or, a fifth of their standard week off OR a fifth of their standard week's pay.)

Stheno

silent_spark wrote: »

Answer: Yes. They are due an extra day off at another point OR a day's pay. (Or, a fifth of their standard week off OR a fifth of their standard week's pay.)

So if they get the extra pay they are not entitled to another day off? It's one or the other not both

davo10

silent_spark wrote: »

Answer: Yes. They are due an extra day off at another point OR a day's pay. (Or, a fifth of their standard week off OR a fifth of their standard week's pay.)

Response: the op knows that, he/she is getting the day's pay, the question is, in case you missed it, is he/she entitled to an extra day off on top of being paid for the day?

silent_spark

Stheno wrote: »

So if they get the extra pay they are not entitled to another day off? It's one or the other not both

Yes. I don't think the OP thought they were entitled to both? (I may have misread that)

So, eg worker is usually paid €1000 for working Tuesday to Saturday. Monday one week is a bank holiday, so like workers doing Monday to Friday, they are entitled to public holiday benefit of either a day off (for the workers who normally work Mondays this might be the Monday itself) or a day's pay. So, the Tuesday to Saturday worker is entitled to a day off (Wednesday, whenever, to be agreed with the employer) or a total pay of €1200. (I think, based on my reading of the rules, practice in two companies I've worked with and advice from outside HRM people, but am open to supported correction.)

davo10

silent_spark wrote: »

Yes. I don't think the OP thought they were entitled to both? (I may have misread that)
)

You did, what do you think this thread is about?

silent_spark

davo10 wrote: »

You did, what do you think this thread is about?

Where does the OP say that they should get both? I've reread their posts, and can't see that. Either way, hopefully the OP's query has been answered.

guestaccount1

To clear thing up. I get paid a salary and I am not paid per shift. As in there are 3 shifts all working four-on, four-off. Some are going to get more holidays from now on due to being on shift when its a bank holiday.

From what I am reading on here and the statute laws that they can't just take away the bank holidays and give us nothing.

Agent_99

I used to work a similar rota, 4 on 4 off,

If I was working on the BH I got 12 hours @1.75 Shift allowance + 8 hours Public Holiday pay,

If I was off I just got the 8 hours Public Holiday Pay + my normal weeks wages.