Stop start technology

joe199

What's peoples opinions on these new cars which cut the engine everytime you stop? On a personal level I just couldn't get used to it and don't think I ever could.

Nuw

Several rentals i had over the past couple of years had it, it does take some getting use to but in fairness, it doesn't really bother me. I found it best suited to an automatic though as you don't have to think about it at all.
Was talking to my mechanic about it out of curiosity and he was telling me that he never encountered any issues with this system, as of yet... He also said that the starter motor is usually a lot tougher than your regular ones, so shouldn't fail, but if it did, it would a tad more expensive to replace (around +10-15%).

It wouldn't put me off a car, because, if you really don't like it, you can always turn it off

maximum12

joe199 wrote: »

What's peoples opinions on these knew cars which cut the engine everytime you stop? On a personal level I just couldn't get used to it and don't think I ever could.

Awful in diesel cars. Who wants a big shudder every time you start stop.

The technology works very well in hybrids.

tossy

maximum12 wrote: »

Awful in diesel cars. Who wants a big shudder every time you start stop.

The technology works very well in hybrids.

I've driven an A6 TDI with stop start , you wouldn't notice the engine has even stopped never mind notice it starting. (if you weren't looking at the gauges)

Personally though i don't like it, i always think there will be one time it won't start again. Plus you can't rev her out at the lights and look savage!

The Backwards Man

Great yokes for ensuring the blood is circulating to your left index finger when you get into the car first thing in the morning!:)

savagethegoat

I didn't think I'd like it, but it works very well on my diesel Focus. What's that about a shudder? Not part of my experience.

I'm not sure how it works. On re-starting the , the noise is different and I think it may have a separate starter motor for this feature.

philstar

is it bulletproof?

cause i wouldn't like to be in at the front of a queue and the car fails to restart

GustavoFring

Turn ignition to on, turn off stop/start, put on seatbelt and start it is my routine now. It's truely awful.

Dardania

I had it on a few rentals, and found on manual cars, I couldn't beat it
e.g. on a VW touran diesel, it starts starting up when you press the clutch, and there was no way to get in to gear fast enough and let the clutch out before the engine being started. very impressive.

On an auto (well, DSG) VW Golf, it wasn't as unflappable e.g. I had a slight delay until power was available after starting.

but I found it worked excellently, and whilst I did notice the starting up (including a tiny bit of diesel rattle in the morning) if I owned the car for longer, it'd be fine. Economy on those cars was excellent too (albeit I'm sure plenty of emissions)

Speedwell

I rented one with stop-start and an automatic transmission. Very easy to learn and used astonishingly little petrol. I don't think I'd like it on a manual transmission at all.

mikeecho

I've heard anecdotal stories that Stop/Start tech, is causing problems with Alternators in some BMWs after about 4 or 5 years.

When the engine stops, all the ancillaries are still working.
Lights, radio, A/C, heated seats, satnav etc etc

lots of draw on the battery , which in turns means the alternator is pretty much constantly working to keep the battery charged.

Topper Harley

I love it my car. I actually feel slightly uneasy now if I sitting at lights and the engine is running. It's never failed to restart for me and it's not a fear I have. As someone else said, with mine as soon as you put my foot on the clutch the engine is going again before I can even get it into gear. It causes no delay at all.

If it's a really hot day and I've the A/C on full blast, the engine will normally restart itself as required to keep everything running.

The only issue is, and I've only heard this recently, is that the constant stopping and staring is bad for the timing chain on BMWs, hence their regular timing chain problems.

zilog_jones

maximum12 wrote: »

The technology works very well in hybrids.

The technology is completely different in hybrids. In Toyota/Lexus hybrids there is no starter motor (no alternator either) - you have two "motor-generators" (they work in both directions) connected to the transmission in different ways - one (MG1) used for either starting the petrol engine or taking power from it (e.g. to charge batteries), and the other (MG2) for either driving the wheels or regenerative braking. That is simplifying things but if you want more detail see here.

MG1 is a lot more powerful than a traditional starter and has a much bigger power source (the hybrid batteries, not 12V auxiliary battery), so can start the petrol engine almost seamlessly. Also you get propulsion from MG2, so you can start moving before the petrol engine even starts (if the load/speed is low enough you won't need the ICE at all).

savagethegoat

mikeecho wrote: »

I've heard anecdotal stories that Stop/Start tech, is causing problems with Alternators in some BMWs after about 4 or 5 years.

When the engine stops, all the ancillaries are still working.
Lights, radio, A/C, heated seats, satnav etc etc

lots of draw on the battery , which in turns means the alternator is pretty much constantly working to keep the battery charged.

Not so on my car, if the auxiliaries are on, the stop/start will restart as soon as the battery dips a little or may not operate at all. It always makes me jump when it restarts unexpectedly!

Special Circumstances

savagethegoat wrote: »

Not so on my car, if the auxiliaries are on, the stop/start will restart as soon as the battery dips a little or may not operate at all. It always makes me jump when it restarts unexpectedly!

I thought you'd hardly notice it start?



So that it could run the alternator.

grogi

joe199 wrote: »

What's peoples opinions on these new cars which cut the engine everytime you stop? On a personal level I just couldn't get used to it and don't think I ever could.

It is a brilliant way of cutting CO2 emission and thus relevant taxes. Real life savings in fuel consumption aren't as big - in my case it is 2-3%...

Although it works pretty well in my automatic and I wasn't ever able to catch it, I hate it with every piece of my body. There is a voice on my shoulder constantly telling me "that's the turbo going down (when stopped for traffic lights shortly after getting out of motorway) etc". I switch it off every time I start the car.

I could live with S&S in a manual car (if I ever wanted a manual...), where you can control it with the clutch. In an automatic it's a no-go for me, unless it would engage only on very strong brake press.

zilog_jones

Why would it be worse in an automatic? I assume you have a left foot...

Topper Harley

grogi wrote: »

It is a brilliant way of cutting CO2 emission and thus relevant taxes. Real life savings in fuel consumption aren't as big - in my case it is 2-3%...

I could live with S&S in a manual car, where you can control it with the clutch, but in an automatic I hate it with every piece of my body... Even though it works pretty well.

How does it work on an automatic? Does it just restart when you press the accelerator?

Senecio

I guess in a manual you can defeat/cheat it by always leaving it in gear and never taking your foot off the clutch at the lights?

vectra

maximum12 wrote: »

Awful in diesel cars. Who wants a big shudder every time you start stop.

The technology works very well in hybrids.

Can't say I notice any shudder when my passat stops/starts.
I too thought I would never get used to it, but now I hardly notice it.

grogi

zilog_jones wrote: »

Why would it be worse in an automatic? I assume you have a left foot...

It engages everytime you stop. Imagine a RB, and cars going forward 4-5m at a time... That's a handful of restarts for a single roundabout...

In a manual it will not switch the engine off if the car is in gear, so you can slowly make progress without switch off, but save fuel on traffic lights.

Dardania

Topper Harley wrote: »

grogi wrote: »

It is a brilliant way of cutting CO2 emission and thus relevant taxes. Real life savings in fuel consumption aren't as big - in my case it is 2-3%...

I could live with S&S in a manual car, where you can control it with the clutch, but in an automatic I hate it with every piece of my body... Even though it works pretty well.

How does it work on an automatic? Does it just restart when you press the accelerator?

Yes

Senecio wrote: »

I guess in a manual you can defeat/cheat it by always leaving it in gear and never taking your foot off the clutch at the lights?

Yes, or if there's an override button

Clareman

Topper Harley wrote: »

How does it work on an automatic? Does it just restart when you press the accelerator?

Lift your foot slightly off the brake and it starts again

Alun

I have it on my petrol Nissan Pulsar, and I hardly notice it any more apart from the display that lights up informing me of how many kg of CO2 I've saved. No "judder", and it starts every time without fail. There's a button to deactivate it but I've seen no reason to do so so far anyway.

It can be a bit picky as to when it actually kicks in or not. It depends on a whole raft of things but mainly the battery charge state so I'm informed by Nissan.

White Ninja

Senecio wrote: »

I guess in a manual you can defeat/cheat it by always leaving it in gear and never taking your foot off the clutch at the lights?

Keeping your foot on the clutch wouldn't do the release bearing any favours, could end up costing a fortune.

How much fuel does a car actually burn at lights? obviously it depends where you do most of your driving, but unless your in a city, I would have thought the savings would be negligible.
I wouldn't be into it to be honest, the more complicated cars are the more stuff there is to go wrong.

grogi

White Ninja wrote: »

Keeping your foot on the clutch wouldn't do the release bearing any favours, could end up costing a fortune.

If it is the habit, true. If you do it with full awareness and occasionally just to let things cool down - not so much...

White Ninja wrote: »

How much fuel does a car actually burn at lights? obviously it depends where you do most of your driving, but unless your in a city, I would have thought the savings would be negligible.
I wouldn't be into it to be honest, the more complicated cars are the more stuff there is to go wrong.

0.5-1l/h.

RoyalMarine

Zero issues with it. Took an hour or so to get use to it.
Very handy for city driving when you could be at a standstill for 5mins or more.

savagethegoat

Special Circumstances wrote: »

I thought you'd hardly notice it start?



So that it could run the alternator.

well you experience a starter motor cut in so you couldn't really not notice it

grogi

savagethegoat wrote: »

well you experience a starter motor cut in so you couldn't really not notice it

Not all cars restart with the starter... My barge uses a reversible alternator to turn the engine and super-capacitor to get the energy from (which is charged during by regenerative braking).

Hardly any additional wear-and-tear on the battery and the starter. But still hate it

savagethegoat

Senecio wrote: »

I guess in a manual you can defeat/cheat it by always leaving it in gear and never taking your foot off the clutch at the lights?

you can turn it off if you wish, I very rarely do.

Special Circumstances

savagethegoat wrote: »

well you experience a starter motor cut in so you couldn't really not notice it

But no shudder/vibration. Fair enough!





Is the water pump on start stop systems generally
a) shtandard pump, not spinning during all the shutdowns
b) standard, but with supplemental electric pump
c) all electric

Bored Accountant

I have 1.7 Diesel Hyundai i40. took a bit of getting used to at the start. I used to jump when the engine cut out when I took my foot off the clutch. I have a habit of when stopped at lights etc, to slip the car out of gear and let the clutch out to reposition my foot or whatever, so might only had the clutch out for a second. I've had to stop that.

I really don't see the point of it in the long run. I am very rarely stopped for longer than 20 seconds at lights. In traffic, you will usually end up crawling a little bit, so I think any economy savings must surely be minimal.

There are different things that stop the stop/start engaging; obviously if seatbelt isn't on, if you haven't exceeded a certain speed since the last start/stop, if air conditioning is on full blast and you don't have it set to auto (auto setting will reduce the air when engine stops to save battery)

grogi

Special Circumstances wrote: »

But no shudder/vibration. Fair enough!





Is the water pump on start stop systems generally
a) shtandard pump, not spinning during all the shutdowns
b) standard, but with supplemental electric pump
c) all electric

All of the above...

pred racer

I have to say it took me a while to get used to it in my insignia, because for my whole life of driving tractors, cars, bikes etc your first instinct when the engine starts to die is to engage the clutch :P

I'm used to it now so it doesn't bother me. There is a big eco button on the dash that i can turn off if it does

savagethegoat

I'd certainly miss it if I didn't have it...just as I missed the handbrake assist and reverse beepers on the near identical Focus I hired last week. I thought UK cars were better specced than Irish ones!

mikeecho

This is my routine.

Sit in.
Foot on brake peddle
Press start
Turn off stop/start
Seat belt
Press auto handbrake.

And away I go.

Dardania

Just a perhaps tongue in cheek observation - would those on this thread that don't like the start/stop technology, and actively disable it - would they perhaps be the same people that don't leave their air conditioning in automatic mode, and instead like to manually control the heating & cooling?

Reason I make this observation, is that some people are happy to offload thinking to the machine (set & forget) whereas others, for whatever motivation, don't like to release control at all...

grogi

Dardania wrote: »

Just a perhaps tongue in cheek observation - would those on this thread that don't like the start/stop technology, and actively disable it - would they perhaps be the same people that don't leave their air conditioning in automatic mode, and instead like to manually control the heating & cooling?

Reason I make this observation, is that some people are happy to offload thinking to the machine (set & forget) whereas others, for whatever motivation, don't like to release control at all...

I let it shift on its own. It also has autonomy when to switch lights and wipers on... A/C on auto...

mikeecho

Dardania wrote: »

Just a perhaps tongue in cheek observation - would those on this thread that don't like the start/stop technology, and actively disable it - would they perhaps be the same people that don't leave their air conditioning in automatic mode, and instead like to manually control the heating & cooling?

Reason I make this observation, is that some people are happy to offload thinking to the machine (set & forget) whereas others, for whatever motivation, don't like to release control at all...

I disable the stop start.
But I'm quite happy to leave the a/c on auto
The lights on auto
The wipers on auto
Leave the auto box on auto (paddles suck)
The phone to auto connect to Bluetooth.

Everything auto... except stop start

Man007

Is there any real saving as a result of this tech or is it a gimmick

I have my car 2.5 years and the estimated saving per the cars computer is 50km.

Considering I get 500km out of about €40 it seems pointless and I barely use it anymore and just keep the clutch down.

Stallingrad

I drive with mine off most of the time. I spend most of my time on the motorway and don't like the idea of a hot engine (petrol/turbo) shutting down at the first sign of a traffic light or traffic jam.

mighty magpie

tossy wrote: »

I've driven an A6 TDI with stop start , you wouldn't notice the engine has even stopped never mind notice it starting. (if you weren't looking at the gauges)

Personally though i don't like it, i always think there will be one time it won't start again. Plus you can't rev her out at the lights and look savage!

4 year old TDI scirocco here and i barely notice it. definitely no shudder.

I have driven a good few cars with it and have to say I quite like it, particularly in combination with an auto handbrake. The auto handbrake is one thing I thought was stupid until I drove a car with one and then realised how good they are particularly the hill hold function makes driving in traffic much more pleasant. Its a must on my next car.

Bored Accountant

Amir Hundreds Searcher wrote: »

The auto handbrake is one thing I thought was stupid until I drove a car with one and then realised how good they are particularly the hill hold function makes driving in traffic much more pleasant.

I only use the auto handbreak for hill starts. never activate it otherwise. I had a close one day where I jumped out of the car in a car park to close the boot as it hadn't closed properly and car started rolling forward cause it wasn't activated :eek:

Some of the features on new cars are so good until you get into an older car. Now when I drive my girlfriends car I struggle to park without the reversing camera.

White Ninja

White Ninja wrote: »

How much fuel does a car actually burn at lights?

My 2L petrol says 1L per hour when its sitting idle

White Ninja

BrownFinger wrote: »

My 2L petrol says 1L per hour when its sitting idle

An hour is a long time, you'd have to be doing a lot of city driving for it to be worth while.
I also wonder if an engine uses more fuel during start up than an idling engine. So if you're in stop start traffic, would you actually use more fuel?

Special Circumstances

White Ninja wrote: »

An hour is a long time, you'd have to be doing a lot of city driving for it to be worth while.

true.

White Ninja wrote: »

I also wonder if an engine uses more fuel during start up than an idling engine. So if you're in stop start traffic, would you actually use more fuel?

Assuming the system only works once the engine has warmed up, and that some or all of them take advantage of stored energy by stopping the engine at just the right time so it has one cyclinder under peak compression, I'd say you are not losing out in terms of fuel. But do the gains offset the potential extra costs for the 3rd or 4th owner... ??

Bored Accountant

White Ninja wrote: »

An hour is a long time, you'd have to be doing a lot of city driving for it to be worth while.
I also wonder if an engine uses more fuel during start up than an idling engine. So if you're in stop start traffic, would you actually use more fuel?

I remember hearing that the amount of fuel used to start a car was equal to a car idiling for 45 seconds. I assume the stop/start is more economical than that!!

grogi

Special Circumstances wrote: »

true.


Assuming the system only works once the engine has warmed up, and that some or all of them take advantage of stored energy by stopping the engine at just the right time so it has one cyclinder under peak compression, I'd say you are not losing out in terms of fuel. But do the gains offset the potential extra costs for the 3rd or 4th owner... ??

Financially? Absolutely not.

Environmentally? It is debatable if the energy saved by stopping engine offsets the energy required to produce, transport, install and dispose the additional components needed to build and maintain Stop&Start system.

What Stop&Start achieves for sure is noise reduction in congested places.

Bored Accountant wrote: »

I remember hearing that the amount of fuel used to start a car was equal to a car idiling for 45 seconds. I assume the stop/start is more economical than that!!

That's starting from cold. Stop&Start will leverage multiple things - knowing precisely where the pistons are it might be sufficient just to fire a spark/inject some diesel and the engine resumes.

Zubeneschamali

Have it in a 151 petrol mini, and have no issues with it.

Whether it'll be as effective when the car is 10 years old, I don't know. By then, we'll probably be scrapping cars at 10 years old anyway as uninsurable.

endagibson

Had to hire a number of cars last year in the UK. Several of them came with it. Once I was used to it and what triggered it *, I was fine. **

* One car didn't behave exactly the same way each time to deactivate. Can't recall the car.
** Another car shut off as I was joining a queue at a red light at the bottom of an M25 exit ramp. I hadn't quite come to a stop and the car was still moving, but I had no steering or brakes for those last few yards. Can't recall the car.