Public service - didn't get job

Lux23

I work in the civil service at EO level for the last year and half. Before this I had about ten years working experience with over four of this in the role I am in now.

My manager was promoted in June and her role was advertised in July and I attended interview last week. I was told yesterday I was placed second on the panel. The decision was based purely on the interview. I had all the experience, but the nerves got the better of me and they said I didn't explain one or two of the points very clearly. I was very close apparently. I am now faced with having to report to the person who got the job and as you can imagine I am not relishing that prospect.

My career is over in this organisation, my role is very specialised so it is unlikely that another opportunity will surface any time soon. People have said to me the decision is wrong and to appeal, but I have no clue as to the process regarding this. The role isn't through PAS so I don't even know if this is a possibility.

I am really devastated because I was so happy here but now I will have to start looking for another job, I took a lower paid position in order to make the transition into the public sector so it was always a gamble but I never expected in a million years that this would happen.

Am I stupid to appeal?

listermint

Im struggling to understand what you are appealing here?

Someone equally as qualified and who bettered you in the interview got the job and you dont want to work with them and want to appeal the decision?




Why?

Dardania

I have the same query listermint.

Is it possibly as this is a public sector job (where once one is in the PS, and with a specific skillset, it's somewhat up to the PS to define a career path?)

OP, aside from your current role, and the one you went for, what way do you see your career shaping next? Would appealing be a useful exercise on that?

Lux23

Dardania wrote: »

I have the same query listermint.

OP, aside from your current role, and the one you went for, what way do you see your career shaping next? Would appealing be a useful exercise on that?

Probably not. Its just people have said to appeal, but I think that will be viewed as throwing my rattle out of the cradle. So I don't think I will.

I'll honestly don't think I understood the process, I really thought that my doing the role for so long was enough for them. Like my superiors are telling they are going to work on another role for me, which is madness because this one was perfect for me.

listermint

Lux23 wrote: »

Probably not. Its just people have said to appeal, but I think that will be viewed as throwing my rattle out of the cradle. So I don't think I will.

I'll honestly don't think I understood the process, I really thought that my doing the role for so long was enough for them.

But you failed the interview ? you said this yourself.

stargazer 68

Lux23 wrote: »

Probably not. Its just people have said to appeal, but I think that will be viewed as throwing my rattle out of the cradle. So I don't think I will.

I'll honestly don't think I understood the process, I really thought that my doing the role for so long was enough for them.

There is nothing to appeal OP - these 'people' weren't in the interviews so have no idea what was said.
Unfortunately doing the role so long is not how the PS works when it comes to interview.

Im assuming it was a competency based interview so you have to demonstrate your knowledge etc and are marked according to your responses. Fair playing field for everyone.

Avatar MIA

Why do you think you should have got the job more so than the person that did?

Is it possible to appeal based on really really really wanting the job?!?

Dardania

Lux23 wrote: »

Dardania wrote: »

I have the same query listermint.

OP, aside from your current role, and the one you went for, what way do you see your career shaping next? Would appealing be a useful exercise on that?

Probably not. Its just people have said to appeal, but I think that will be viewed as throwing my rattle out of the cradle. So I don't think I will.

I'll honestly don't think I understood the process, I really thought that my doing the role for so long was enough for them. Like my superiors are telling they are going to work on another role for me, which is madness because this one was perfect for me.

Maybe appealing is one path to get ahead in the PS - I don't know. I guess that's why you're here, getting outside advice. Hopefully others from the PS can chime in.

In private sector, based on my experience (and from earlier part of your career) it wouldn't be viewed positively to appeal - that would be a toys out of the pram move indeed, and would mark one out as an entitled troublemaker.

Is there any upskilling you can do to better prepare you for a new move?

NapoleonInRags

Dovies wrote: »

There is nothing to appeal OP - these 'people' weren't in the interviews so have no idea what was said.
Unfortunately doing the role so long is not how the PS works when it comes to interview.

Im assuming it was a competency based interview so you have to demonstrate your knowledge etc and are marked according to your responses. Fair playing field for everyone.

Exactly as above. The practice of people getting a job because they are 'next in line', rather than on merit, was a major criticism of public sector recruitment for years and has happily ceased.

You agree that you didn't perform at interview on this occasion. So why not focus on improving this, rather than some half-baked appeal that has no grounds.

Timberrrrrrrr

If you appeal what happens next? Do you both get interviewed again?

Honestly can't see how an appeal would do you any good, the other person has been told they have the job, imagine them now having to report to you after that decision got overturned.

Lux23

It was a competency based interview so essentially I was only judged on the answer I gave, nothing else. Nerves got the better of me and I fudged half an answer and missed the person ahead of me by a couple of marks.

I only joined the public sector recently, but have been acting up for about seven months. All and all I have six years experience in the exact same role and experience in other types of related positions. I am more than capable of doing the role, I am doing it now and I deserved it. I really did. My manager who interviewed me along with two others said I was ready, senior management are shocked I haven't progressed.

I know people reading this are probably thinking, "oh they are just a sore loser" but this role meant everything to me and I was so nervous and messed up one question. But I am more than capable of doing it. And frankly the process meant that they had to choose the wrong person for the role. This selection was not on merit at all.

I am not going to appeal, but I really hope my new manager fecks up.

Timberrrrrrrr

Lux23 wrote: »

It was a competency based interview so essentially I was only judged on the answer I gave, nothing else. Nerves got the better of me and I fudged half an answer and missed the person ahead of me by a couple of marks.

I only joined the public sector recently, but have been acting up for about seven months. All and all I have six years experience in the exact same role and experience in other types of related positions. I am more than capable of doing the role, I am doing it now and I deserved it. I really did. My manager who interviewed me along with two others said I was ready, senior management are shocked I haven't progressed.

I know people reading this are probably thinking, "oh they are just a sore loser" but this role meant everything to me and I was so nervous and messed up one question. But I am more than capable of doing it. And frankly the process meant that they had to choose the wrong person for the role. This selection was not on merit at all.

Says it all really

listermint

Lux23 wrote: »

It was a competency based interview so essentially I was only judged on the answer I gave, nothing else. Nerves got the better of me and I fudged half an answer and missed the person ahead of me by a couple of marks.

I only joined the public sector recently, but have been acting up for about seven months. All and all I have six years experience in the exact same role and experience in other types of related positions. I am more than capable of doing the role, I am doing it now and I deserved it. I really did. My manager who interviewed me along with two others said I was ready, senior management are shocked I haven't progressed.

I know people reading this are probably thinking, "oh they are just a sore loser" but this role meant everything to me and I was so nervous and messed up one question. But I am more than capable of doing it. And frankly the process meant that they had to choose the wrong person for the role. This selection was not on merit at all.

I am not going to appeal, but I really hope my new manager fecks up.

Once again i ask you what makes you think its not on merit?

2 people equally qualified went in, 1 did a better interview therefore they progressed.

Why are you better than the other person specifically?

You haven't actually answer this yet.

Again both qualified and 1 interviewed better.

Lux23

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Says it all really

No it doesn't.

If I wasn't ready, I would accept the decision. But I am and now I have to support someone new coming into the role that I was doing for months. And doing very well. My performance reviews have always been of a High Standard and feedback is always positive.

Timberrrrrrrr

Lux23 wrote: »

No it doesn't.

If I wasn't ready, I would accept the decision. But I am and now I have to support someone new coming into the role that I was doing for months. And doing very well. My performance reviews have always been of a High Standard and feedback is always positive.

So basically what you are saying is that everyone is wrong and you are right

listermint

Lux23 wrote: »

No it doesn't.

If I wasn't ready, I would accept the decision. But I am and now I have to support someone new coming into the role that I was doing for months. And doing very well. My performance reviews have always been of a High Standard and feedback is always positive.

Can you answer my question ? because you've ignored all logic so far on this topic.

Dardania

It strikes me that your only real grounds for appeal is that the interview process is flawed..

Lux23

listermint wrote: »

Once again i ask you what makes you think its not on merit?

2 people equally qualified went in, 1 did a better interview therefore they progressed.

Why are you better than the other person specifically?

You haven't actually answer this yet.

Again both qualified and 1 interviewed better.

1. I am more qualified. (Their CV did not match up to mine, the interview panel hadn't selected anyone as qualified as me)
2. I am doing the job, understand the organisation very well.
3. It is less of a risk to promote internally especially when the role involves managing people and influencing senior members of staff.

So yes this decision is wrong and could be disastrous.

Lux23

Dardania wrote: »

It strikes me that your only real grounds for appeal is that the interview process is flawed..

Exactly, which isn't a grounds for appeal really. I think those advising me are getting carried away with it the unfairness of it all.

Senna

Wishing your new manager messes up, that says it all. Thinking you are capable of a position and being capable are two different things, it sounds like such a childish attitude does not suit a management position and the hiring committee made the right decision.

Dodge

Lux23 wrote: »

Exactly, which isn't a grounds for appeal really. I think those advising me are getting carried away with it the unfairness of it all.

There's only one person getting carried away with the unfairness of it here.

You were placed 2nd on a promotion panel. The person ahead of you is better suited to the job than you are, in the eyes of the people who matter.

That's all there is to it.

You can either continue to work at a high level and hope it works out, or you can leave. I suggest the former.

Timberrrrrrrr

Lux23 wrote: »

Exactly, which isn't a grounds for appeal really. I think those advising me are getting carried away with it the unfairness of it all.

I'm sorry but the feeling of entitlement from you is unbelievable.

Jentle Grenade

As someone who does a lot of work in this area I can tell you one thing, if your senior management wanted you to get the job you would have gotten the job.

Avatar MIA

Lux23 wrote: »

Their CV did not match up to mine,

Er, how have you seen their CV?

Ursus Horribilis

Next time, if there is a next time, get outside help with your form and interview technique. I think you'll find that more people than you think go that route. As you're learning to your cost, it's not what you do out on the office floor that counts. It's what's in the form. The person who got the job is the one who had better examples and was better able to answer their questions.

Jimbob1977

Is the idea of reporting into the new manager (your peer) so repugnant?

I could understand if the person was totally incompetent and it might be an insult to your intelligence.

However, if the person is a conscientious and competent person.... could you roll with it for a while?

Jobs always seem to come up in the Public Sector and you might get a promotion or lateral move within the year.

Grounds for appeal.... only if you knew the other person was totally unqualified

jayobray

The same thing happened to me about 10 years ago in a specialist civil service position. I had worked in the role, had proved myself, but promotion was based on the interview. I accepted that, knew that I'm not great at interviews but did my best, and accepted the outcome, that I didn't get the promotion. But I knew the process involved and therefore just had to move on and get over the disappointment. I learnt from it and got promoted to another post a few years later.

MeatTwoVeg

You've no grounds for appeal OP, it's as simple as that. The process you've described sounds a completely normal way to fill a PS position and you've said yourself you messed up the interview.
The best thing you can do now is learn from the experience and continue to work hard.

Big Bag of Chips

Yep, this came down to a points system on your interview and the other person scored more points. It's that simple. You may have scored better in terms of experience of the job, but they obviously scored higher in areas that you fell down in and over all came out on top.

I know people who have gone for internal jobs, and basically have sat with their boss, or as high up the chain of management as they can and went through the interview! Found out what specifically the panel wanted to hear and made sure to use those specific phrases.

Your career isn't ended. That sounds a bit dramatic. You didn't get a job, this time. If your boss hadn't left the position in June you wouldn't have even been in the running for it anyway. Other positions will come up. And when they do make sure you are 100% prepared going into the interview. Talk to whoever will answer you! And find out what it is the interviewers want to hear from you.

Ursus Horribilis

Have you looked for feedback? It might shed some light on where you went wrong.

grouchyman

You just need to get over this and move on OP. Acting up into a position is just the luck of the draw (i.e. you were there others weren't.) It confers no rights to a position. What happened to you is not an uncommon occurrence, I've seen it happen plenty of times in the past and I'm sure I'll see it happen again. My advice would be to have a professional & cordial relationship with your new line manager. Be helpful to them as they settle in, remember you are probably the subject knowledge expert in the area off work. Your new manager will appreciate your help as they settle in and support you in future interviews.

MeatTwoVeg

How you react to your failures says more about you than how you react to your successes.
Very few careers are a constant procession of advancement. There will be setbacks and sideways moves along the way.

Mrs OBumble

Lux23 wrote: »

...My manager who interviewed me along with two others said I was ready, senior management are shocked I haven't progressed.

If you were ready, you wouldn't have f*cked up the interview.

If senior management really wanted you to get the job, they would have found a way to organise the marking so you got the job, no matter what happened in the interview. Worst case, they would just have not appointed and re-advertised.




Best of luck with progressing your career elsewhere, if progression is what what you really want to do.

Gungadin

Lux23 wrote: »

1. I am more qualified. (Their CV did not match up to mine, the interview panel hadn't selected anyone as qualified as me)
2. I am doing the job, understand the organisation very well.
3. It is less of a risk to promote internally especially when the role involves managing people and influencing senior members of staff.

So yes this decision is wrong and could be disastrous.

Its totally out of order if you've seen the other candidates CV or interview report card.

Big Bag of Chips

Lux23 wrote: »

3. It is less of a risk to promote internally especially when the role involves managing people and influencing senior members of staff.

So yes this decision is wrong and could be disastrous.

That's a matter of opinion. I know of many places where an outsider was brought in to a management position, over somebody who had been acting for quite some time. It was always thought to be for the best to bring in a fresh brain, and somebody who had no history, friendships or loyalties to existing staff members. Somebody who wouldn't be afraid to make changes and shake ups where necessary, and wouldn't be afraid of "stepping on a friend's toes". Not disregarding the fact that the outside person proved to be the best applicant for the job!

"Disastrous"?

Really?

oppenheimer1

NapoleonInRags wrote: »

Exactly as above. The practice of people getting a job because they are 'next in line', rather than on merit, was a major criticism of public sector recruitment for years and has happily ceased.

You agree that you didn't perform at interview on this occasion. So why not focus on improving this, rather than some half-baked appeal that has no grounds.

Since when?

Lux23

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wench

Lux23 wrote: »

I work in the civil service at EO level for the last year and half.

Lux23 wrote: »

I only joined the public sector recently, but have been acting up for about seven months.

Lux23 wrote: »

3. It is less of a risk to promote internally especially when the role involves managing people and influencing senior members of staff.

So yes this decision is wrong and could be disastrous.

You're hardly in the door yourself, most of your relevant experience was from outside, just like the other candidate.
A few months internal experience doesn't make you so vital that failure to promote you will be disastrous.

Lux23

wench wrote: »

You're hardly in the door yourself, most of your relevant experience was from outside, just like the other candidate.
A few months internal experience doesn't make you so vital that failure to promote you will be disastrous.

Fair enough.

Ghekko

This happened a friend of mine who was acting as a team leader for some time. She didn't get the role but was subsequently asked to train in the person who did - to me that is an insult. So if this is expected of you I would kindly refrain and go back to the job you were doing before you were acting in that role.

Lux23

I don't know, that probably isn't fair on the new person, I think I would provide some support.

Big Bag of Chips

Lux23 wrote: »

I am devastated. And its not just a job, it was about my whole life. The money to buy a home, start a family all of these things are now out of reach for another couple of years and I just don't know how to pick myself back up from this. I am 34 and feel like I am running out of time. I thought about walking out in front of a car earlier, I am scaring myself that much.

Really, Lux, this is crazy. Surely you can see yourself that this is a wholly disproportionate reaction to a job.

Your boss was promoted in June, and in July you stepped into her old role. So you've been doing this job for 2 and a half months, tops. Before June you had no idea you were in line for this role. And now you are talking about your life being over, no children, no mortgage etc. You are catastrophising. And talk of walking under cars??

You really really need to go see your GP. This job won't stop you having a family or buying a house. I'm sure there are many of your colleagues who have children and a family home who earn less than you would do in this role. The fact that you are so devastated by a minor, temporary set back in your life would worry me. Speak to your GP. This is not a normal reaction.

Lux23

Its not a minor setback. Its a huge one at my stage in life. Please don't patronise me like that. And I don't actually have money to see a doctor. Dublin rents don't allow much wriggle room.

Big Bag of Chips

I'm not patronising you. I'm genuinely concerned that you pinned all your life plans on a position that you didn't know existed 3 months ago. What were your plans before that? If your boss hadn't been promoted in June what was your plan?

Really, Lux... I'm not patronising you, but a chat to your GP is definitely needed here.

Ursus Horribilis

How much of a jump in wages would this have been? I got promoted in the public service and my take home pay didn't change all that dramatically.

Tasden

Lux23 wrote: »

1. I am more qualified. (Their CV did not match up to mine, the interview panel hadn't selected anyone as qualified as me)
2. I am doing the job, understand the organisation very well.
3. It is less of a risk to promote internally especially when the role involves managing people and influencing senior members of staff.

So yes this decision is wrong and could be disastrous.

Op I understand how you feel as I've been there myself.
But first thing to remember is pretty much everyone is replaceable. Just because you are doing a job and doing it well does not mean you're the only one who can do it. I mean someone did it before you did right?
Being qualified means different things to different people, professional and academic can be worth less than the transferrable skills someone else has.
Internal and external applicants have pros and cons. You can't say that internal is automatically better just because they know the organisation or role.

I've been in the position where I got the job over the "shoe in" candidate. And everybody thought it was unfair etc. At the end of the day they didn't know anything about me. They had no idea whether it was the right decision or not. They made plenty of assumptions mind you. Don't come across as bitter, be the bigger person and welcome the new person. It's not nice for someone to come into a new job and have people assume you are not worthy of the job without even giving you a chance. I got my job on my own merits and my work proves it. If the new person isn't up to the job then you will be proven right eventually, if they are good then you're just going to have to accept that it was the right decision.

Avatar MIA

Lux23 wrote: »

Its not a minor setback. Its a huge one at my stage in life. Please don't patronise me like that. And I don't actually have money to see a doctor. Dublin rents don't allow much wriggle room.

If you're thinking of walking in front of cars and cannot afford a GP then there are free telephone helplines that can offer assistance.

Dodge

[Q

You need to seek professional help. I'm not kidding. You were doing a job for a couple of months and because you missed out on a promotion, you considered suicide?

Honestly, you need help to work on this. best of luck

Jentle Grenade

What you really need to do for your own sanity is to let go of the idea that your managers etc are shocked/wanted you to get the job/will arrange something else. They're not shocked, they probably did genuinely want to give you a fair crack at it and they may or may not be trying to placate you by saying they'll find something else. For your own dignity and sanity you need to take this on the chin and move forward. I help a lot of people in distress with workplace grievances and this is often a huge sticking point for them. I make a decent chunk of my living off workplace situations like this but appealing in this scenario will only serve to damage you, your mental health and your work place reputation. Its a crap situation to be in, but you need to reassess your head space. If you're feeling extremely low, talk to someone. EAP would certainly help you in this situation.

dwayneshintzy

How much interaction have you had with the other candidate who got the job? And what occurred in this interaction to make you so certain that they are not as qualified as you, that their hiring could potentially prove "disastrous" and that rubbed you up in such a bad way that you legitimately hope they fail?

Ursus Horribilis

I think a phone call to the Employee Assistance people is the best course of action for now. They give help over the phone and also give free counselling etc