Deal to restore pay for newly-qualified teachers in INTO and TUI

CWF

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0916/817007-teachers-department-of-education/

km79

CWF wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0916/817007-teachers-department-of-education/

Predicted this last week
Perfectly timed
Can not understand the delay in Asti ballot papers........
Also the deal doesn't start till January so still a few months to crack the Asti
Game over now I fear

km79

"Contingent on reform measures".............will be accepted no matter what the measures are
The measures will no doubt be further erosion of working conditions for the next 35 years of the teachers contracts

doc11

The deal "equalises pay between teachers who started from February 2012 and those who started immediately before them in 2011". It was equalization of pay with 2010 that all post 2011 grads wanted not the merging of 2 reduced salary scales

km79

doc11 wrote: »

The deal "equalises pay between teachers who started from February 2012 and those who started immediately before them in 2011". It was equalization of pay with 2010 that all post 2011 grads wanted not the merging of 2 reduced salary scales

Ah!

clunked

km79 wrote: »

Ah!

Watch the spin though

CWF

Where do we see this going for ASTI?

http://www.asti.ie/news/latest-news/news-article/article/information-on-asti-ballots-september-2016/

doc_17

Does this have to go through a ballot for TUI?

CWF

Can't see why it would? Pay increase, why would anyone want to decline that?!

joebloggs32

doc_17 wrote: »

Does this have to go through a ballot for TUI?

The deal will in effect return the degree allowance to the teachers who have started after 2011. The gap therefore will now just be for the hdip/masters.
It goes a very long way to pay parity. I'm sure the TUI will continue to fight for that.
What have the ASTI achieved for their NQTs. Longer CID and now a vastly inferior pay scale.

joebloggs32

doc_17 wrote: »

Does this have to go through a ballot for TUI?

May well have to as it is not full parity, which we balloted for. I would however expect it to sail through if that happens.

feardeas

Would imagine the ASTI will now have to ballot on LRA again eventually. Otherwise the new entrants since 2011 will be down significantly compared to their colleagues in TUI. Also the CID and lack of increments and no s and s money. The guts of 3k not to be sneezed at.

Good game be the department. Now Winetavern St need to respond.

RealJohn

Well it's a step in the right direction I suppose, though I'd like to know exactly what it is contingent on.

Not that it matters much to me I suppose. If the TUI tells the members to accept it, they almost certainly will so my vote probably won't make much difference anyway (but I'll still cast it and do so as I see fit, don't worry).

judeboy101

The Asti just released a statement

man_no_plan

I just heard this on the news on the way home there. It looks like very good progress to me.

I need to read the docs fully but it seems that the TUI have delivered what they said they would in their may agreement.

http://www.tui.ie/news-events/major-progress-towards-pay-equality-for-teachers-campaign-continues-.9048.html

GTE

I am unfortunately having poorly timed problems with my eyesight when reading this, no joke, so I would really appreciate if someone could help me out with this.

I am a new Further Education teacher who started this week, and I am expecting to sign a contract with the ETB in the coming days.

Am I right in saying that my salary point was 30,700ish before this news?
I would be pro-rata of that, not full time.

Can I now just say that I am pro-rata of a new salary scale and expect that any arrears due will be balanced out when this starts kicking in January?

Is the point 1 on the new scale 31,800? What is the deal with the €35,602 that The Journal quote?
http://www.thejournal.ie/teachers-starting-salary-2982825-Sep2016/

Trust the eyesight to cause a problem just as I get some good news

doc11

joebloggs32 wrote: »

The deal will in effect return the degree allowance to the teachers who have started after 2011. The gap therefore will now just be for the hdip/masters.
It goes a very long way to pay parity. I'm sure the TUI will continue to fight for that.
What have the ASTI achieved for their NQTs. Longer CID and now a vastly inferior pay scale.

What about the 10% reduction in pay across the board inforced on post 2011 entrants,having to start a point 1 rather then 3 on the salary scale and of course the demolition of pension rights. Parity will never be achieved.

The ASTI have to look after all it's members not just NQT.

Villain

ROFL at TUI lady on Six One rolling the eyes at ASTI fella.

The ASTI will run out of toys in that pram soon!

judeboy101

Villain wrote: »

ROFL at TUI lady on Six One rolling the eyes at ASTI fella.

The ASTI will run out of toys in that pram soon!

This is exactly what the DES wants. Give enough crumbs spread out over a couple of years to keep the TUI in line and chip away at the ASTI. What amazes me is the money the DES have suddenly found for these increases. Rumour has I the NPC will be putting pressure on DES to sort Junior cert by Xmas.

Villain

Let's see how many ASTI NQT are happy with their senior colleagues keeping this up, money talks......

evolving_doors

Villain wrote: »

Let's see how many ASTI NQT are happy with their senior colleagues keeping this up, money talks......

Well if everyone jumped in to LR would the govt have been so quick?look what happened when everyone went along with Hr/ Cp... it wasn't enough.
I think you'll find resistance talks more than acquiescence.

Villain

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Well if everyone jumped in to LR would the govt have been so quick?
I think you'll find resistance talks more than acquiescence.

Resistance only works for so long and when you are left resisting when others have moved on it can get lonely!

km79

Villain wrote: »

Resistance only works for so long and when you are left resisting when others have moved on it can get lonely!

My kids get lonely when I'm doing pointless CP evenings to tick a box
I hope everyone remembers the extra fuss holiday this year, the extra evenings off.........I will NEVER vote for any agreement that brings them back

teach432

So we have three pay scales: the pre-2011, post-2011 and post-2012. This deal will raise the wages of those on the post-2012 scale to bring them closer in line with the pre-2011 teachers.

How is this not totally screwing the post-2011 teachers (i.e. those on the second scale)?

man_no_plan

teach432 wrote: »

So we have three pay scales: the pre-2011, post-2011 and post-2012. This deal will raise the wages of those on the post-2012 scale to bring them closer in line with the pre-2011 teachers.

How is this not totally screwing the post-2011 teachers (i.e. those on the second scale)?

They're merging the payscales with the dip allowance being the only difference. How is that screwing anyone? Did you read the documents

Benicetomonty

Cant understand why Christie didnt throw Irwin under the bus on the 6 1! Bottom line, pay equalisation was not restored. Partial restoration spread out over 2 years, meaning NQTs still haemorrhaging money. 2018 the year Lansdowne ends so yet another chance for a government to renege on an agreement to look forward to again it comes around. And, most unbelievably, this is contingent on further reforms!! Cannot believe the spin and positivity at this.

man_no_plan

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Cant understand why Christie didnt throw Irwin under the bus on the 6 1! Bottom line, pay equalisation was not restored. Partial restoration spread out over 2 years, meaning NQTs still haemorrhaging money. 2018 the year Lansdowne ends so yet another chance for a government to renege on an agreement to look forward to again it comes around. And, most unbelievably, this is contingent on further reforms!! Cannot believe the spin and positivity at this.

While teachers in the ASTI continue to work on the inferior payscales. And also the buses are on strike today.

Benicetomonty

man_no_plan wrote: »

While teachers in the ASTI continue to work on the inferior payscales. And also the buses are on strike today.

Hilarious. Sounds like a worker's right to take strike action isnt to everyone's taste. Regardless of sector ASTI not the only ones on inferior pay scale, dont forget every teacher who qualified post 2011. Still.

man_no_plan

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Hilarious. Sounds like a worker's right to take strike action isnt to everyone's taste. Regardless of sector ASTI not the only ones on inferior pay scale, dont forget every teacher who qualified post 2011. Still.

Relax will ya, the reference to throwing her under the bus go over your head?

The whole public sector suffered a cut post 2011.

Benicetomonty

man_no_plan wrote: »

Relax will ya, the reference to throwing her under the bus go over your head?

The whole public sector suffered a cut post 2011.

I got the reference. Pretty clear, as is your attitude towards ASTI's continued dispute with the government / DES, and probably every other union in the same position.

What's your 2nd point got to with with anything? We're no longer in a recession so naturally that 10pc should be restored across the board. But if other unions want to roll over, what can we do? ASTI can only stand up for their own members, incredible that TUI and INTO are willing to settle for anything less than full and unequivocal restoration, and undermine fellow teachers in the process.

evolving_doors

Villain wrote: »

Resistance only works for so long and when you are left resisting when others have moved on it can get lonely!

How have you moved on when you're still doing S&S for half pittance and CP for free?
It's like I can hear the champagne corks popping... for what ? a partial restoration of one sector.

meanwhile :
All bus drivers are seeking a 15% pay increase over the next three years for drivers and a 6% rise they say they were due to get under an agreement in 2009, but which was deferred.
.
.
.will they get it by 'moving on'?

Corkgirl18

Can someone tell me what happens to a teacher on the post 2012 scale who isn't in a union? Do we move up on the point scale/earn more money per week/just have the degree allowance back? I've been hearing varying reports.
Thanks.

Villain

Gebgbegb wrote: »

How have you moved on when you're still doing S&S for half pittance and CP for free?...

I'm not a teacher but my wife is and joined 2011, she is greatful for her job and like many younger teachers is tired of all the older staff cribbing about a few extra hours and days.

The ASTI need to wake up and get into the real world, the boom is gone you can't kick and scream at every change and then expect to get what you want.

man_no_plan

Corkgirl18 wrote: »

Can someone tell me what happens to a teacher on the post 2012 scale who isn't in a union? Do we move up on the point scale/earn more money per week/just have the degree allowance back? I've been hearing varying reports.
Thanks.

It will probably be sectoral rather than based on membership or non membership of a union.

Would you consider spending some of this extra money on Union membership?

feardeas

Corkgirl18 wrote: »

Can someone tell me what happens to a teacher on the post 2012 scale who isn't in a union? Do we move up on the point scale/earn more money per week/just have the degree allowance back? I've been hearing varying reports.
Thanks.

If it is the same as the LRA it will be dependent on the type of school you work in. A voluntary school will be seen as ASTI and no teacher will get the benefit, same as what has happened in regard to the LRA with no payment of S and S etc, the benefits of the Ward Report. etc.

So let's paint a possible picture. Voluntary school sector: post 2012 teacher, no S and S money, no CID after 2 years, no increment for three years, no renewal of the degree allowance, which is what this amounts to. At the same time down the road in a TUI school all that is being given for CP. A CP that allows for 8 discretionary [non whole staff ] this year and 10 hours [non whole staff] from the next school year on. Given that some of the PTMs [2] are part of it and some of the staff meetings it means that there will be hardly any if any at all of those mind numbing presentations.

Fast forward a while. The Dept have already realised that the posts need to be brought back. They've cleared the ridiculous nature of seniority as being stand alone on points. Merit might count for something [in some places]. The posts are restored in some way. The caveat being that it will be in schools covered by a national agreement. So then there will be no further posts in the voluntary sector and in schools where there is a mix there will likely be open war.

To paraphrase the Bert the mess gets messier and by God that rabbit in the headlights impression that Christie put on on the six one does nothing to inspire hope not mind confidence.

implausible

S&S working out at €37 per hour next year - pittance? We never got paid for CP.

Does nobody in the ASTI understand the principles of negotiation? Both sides ask for something, eventually both sides get close to what they were looking for. This is very close to pay parity. Holding out for full pay parity (which may never come or be very slow) will cost the same LPTs they are representing money and has already taken the security of a two year CID from them.

It seems that the ASTI don't know when they're winning. They won on JC reform and are still objecting (and judging by posts here and elsewhere, with very little knowledge of what they're objecting to). This pay agreement is a win for LPTs. As for CP hours, while none of us are mad about them, a lot of us have got used to them and they're now far more flexible than they used to be.

The Dublin bus drivers will not get exactly what they are looking for. They will negotiate and get some of it, that's how industrial relations work.

man_no_plan

implausible wrote: »

S&S working out at €37 per hour next year - pittance? We never got paid for CP.

Does nobody in the ASTI understand the principles of negotiation? Both sides ask for something, eventually both sides get close to what they were looking for. This is very close to pay parity. Holding out for full pay parity (which may never come or be very slow) will cost the same LPTs they are representing money and has already taken the security of a two year CID from them.

It seems that the ASTI don't know when they're winning. They won on JC reform and are still objecting (and judging by posts here and elsewhere, with very little knowledge of what they're objecting to). This pay agreement is a win for LPTs. As for CP hours, while none of us are mad about them, a lot of us have got used to them and they're now far more flexible than they used to be.

The Dublin bus drivers will not get exactly what they are looking for. They will negotiate and get some of it, that's how industrial relations work.

The s&s is not dependent on delivery either. You get paid regardless of how many hours you do. Arguably, with everyone in the scheme, everyone should have less to do.

That said it has increased from 37 hours and the old rate was 1700 ish and is now 1600 ish and we need to be available for more periods. In practice though you can't be called for 5 periods in a week.

I only looked at the news now on the player and, to refer to an earlier post, I'm surprised her man from the ASTI didn't look for a bus to throw himself under. It was actually a waste of time having either of them on the news. Irwin is dreadful.

judeboy101

man_no_plan wrote: »

The s&s is not dependent on delivery either. You get paid regardless of how many hours you do. Arguably, with everyone in the scheme, everyone should have less to do.

That said it has increased from 37 hours and the old rate was 1700 ish and is now 1600 ish and we need to be available for more periods. In practice though you can't be called for 5 periods in a week.

I only looked at the news now on the player and, to refer to an earlier post, I'm surprised her man from the ASTI didn't look for a bus to throw himself under. It was actually a waste of time having either of them on the news. Irwin is dreadful.

S&s and CP hrs amount to over 2years extra work over an average teachers work life. Id rather take the financial hit and have 2 yrs work of free time to see my after school, drop them the odd morning to school, plan a coffee or long lunch with my work mates, rather than be at the beck and call of an increasingly bureaucratic management.

acequion

Villain wrote: »

I'm not a teacher but my wife is and joined 2011, she is greatful for her job and like many younger teachers is tired of all the older staff cribbing about a few extra hours and days.

The ASTI need to wake up and get into the real world, the boom is gone you can't kick and scream at every change and then expect to get what you want.

I think you need to wake up and get into the real world. The world of blatantly unequal pay scales,the world where most young teachers will never qualify for a mortgage, the world where if they hang on for 40 years they'll get out with a pittance for a pension at age 67.

You obviously don't understand that some of us, yes cribbing older teachers, are outraged at these injustices and are willing to face down a Government which couldn't care less about teachers or education. And that's fine if you can't see where we're coming from but it would be nice if you'd stop with the the narrow minded remarks.

amacca

Villain wrote: »

I'm not a teacher but my wife is and joined 2011, she is greatful for her job and like many younger teachers is tired of all the older staff cribbing about a few extra hours and days.

The ASTI need to wake up and get into the real world, the boom is gone you can't kick and scream at every change and then expect to get what you want.

In my experience the older staff in any school I was in didn't make too many mistakes no matter how out of touch they seemed, cribbing and moaning aside they knew how to stand up for themselves and that left the working conditions and the school better for all (including students imo).....perhaps, and this is only a suggestion theres some sense underlying the cribbing and moaning?

I'd be interested to fast forward 5,10, 15 years into the future when I believe its likely working conditions will have been eroded even further (if the rot isn't stopped now) and see how your wife feels then if she's still doing the job (see if she's as grateful even if the conditions stay the same tbh) - hell of a thing to sustain the kind of workload thats expected under the teaching conditions encountered now into your 50's never mind 60's

My objection (and my OHs) would have nothing to do with the boom, its to do with working conditions....I see my OH return home frazzled after the the teaching day never mind meetings and all the extra stuff before you even get to CP hrs (which I have to question how beneficial they really are to kids education) + supervising over breaks on some days where you'd normally get a breather or a chance to eat your lunch in a relatively normal amount of time.

She used to take part in extra curricular but has scaled back on it drastically and is thinking of phasing it out altogether, simply because so much of her time is taken up with mostly unnecessary bureaucracy etc - the extra curricular stuff were things that kids enjoyed but went unrecognised at least by the government determined to dole out "busy work" to the "lazy" teachers under a questionable label of "reform" - (another less quantifiable factor in this is the extent of the erosion of goodwill its creating)


Anyway when you say the ASTI need to get with it I think you are right but not for the reasons you think...and its not just them, the TUI and possibly the INTO need to get with it too ...in my book the govt have broken a deal in which teachers have kept their side of the bargain, they have made getting whats owed contingent on signing up to a new deal with no idea of what will have to be rolled over during its term

thats plain dishonourable, underhanded sneak tactics and it should be fought tooth and nail so your wife and indeed every teacher has a job thats sustainable in terms of working conditions (over even an average length of career) as much as renumeration........which in my opinion is also below par in a number of ways compared to the type of work involved nowadays

Careful is all I'd say, all that glitters is not gold (especially in a deal with organisations that play like that)....the trinkets they hand over now won't seem quite as shiny when you have to pay for them repeatedly and once the wedge is driven properly (it probably already is) it can be hard to undo the damage if at all.

A previous poster makes a good argument as well, none of the "progress" made to date would have happened if it wasn't for people objecting and standing up for fair play...and its not all that close to fair play yet imo

2011abc

These boards seem to be lately increasingly likely to be infiltrated by government supporters (I suppose 27% voted for them they must exist )if not direct employees .They have been proven to get up to this sort of thing in past .

implausible

2011abc wrote:

These boards seem to be lately increasingly likely to be infiltrated by government supporters (I suppose 27% voted for them they must exist )if not direct employees .They have been proven to get up to this sort of thing in past .

Oh, so this forum on boards.ie is only for people who agree with the ASTI stance?

acequion

implausible wrote: »

S&S working out at €37 per hour next year - pittance? We never got paid for CP.

Does nobody in the ASTI understand the principles of negotiation? Both sides ask for something, eventually both sides get close to what they were looking for. This is very close to pay parity. Holding out for full pay parity (which may never come or be very slow) will cost the same LPTs they are representing money and has already taken the security of a two year CID from them.

It seems that the ASTI don't know when they're winning. They won on JC reform and are still objecting (and judging by posts here and elsewhere, with very little knowledge of what they're objecting to). This pay agreement is a win for LPTs. As for CP hours, while none of us are mad about them, a lot of us have got used to them and they're now far more flexible than they used to be.

The Dublin bus drivers will not get exactly what they are looking for. They will negotiate and get some of it, that's how industrial relations work.

I'm sorry but I am heartily sick of reading your claims that the JC dispute was won by the unions when nothing could be further from the truth. You clearly are a huge fan of this new JC which I think beggars belief. You've already pointed out that the dispute was about not assessing our students for state certification and that has been achieved and yes that is correct. But that was never the only issue.There were several other issues as you are well aware,issues that have not been resolved and therefore ASTI members voted it down as they are entitled to do and I wish you'd respect that.

I have second year English this year and I think the new course is a disaster. Too much material, hugely increased workload for English teachers, most of whom also teach the ever changing senior course and don't get me started on the farce that is outcomes based education! Completely discredited in many countries, dumped as a failure in Australia, South Africa and the US which have all returned to a syllabus approach. Good for you if you like it but ASTI members see through it and fear that the LC will be the next casualty.

And I also take issue with this,

Does nobody in the ASTI understand the principles of negotiation?

The ASTI represents 17,000 teachers,do you think we're all thick? And what negotiation? All that has come from the GOV side has been threats and bullying.That is not negotiation. Have you ever heard of collective bargaining? And have you forgotten that many of the injustices such as the new entrants' pay cut came in when union members were straitjacketed in an agreement. Where was the "negotiating" then?

Your union capitulated on everything which in my opinion is very regrettable, but that's what your members voted. Please respect that we voted differently and want to continue to fight against the constant erosion of teachers' working conditions and defend Irish education.

rainbowtrout

implausible wrote: »

S&S working out at €37 per hour next year - pittance? We never got paid for CP.


....

As for CP hours, while none of us are mad about them, a lot of us have got used to them and they're now far more flexible than they used to be.

While there is pay for S&S there is absolutely no opt out clause without taking a pay cut to basic pay. I have never heard of any type of employment where you take a pay cut for not wanting to do overtime. Aside from teaching.


Getting used to doing CP hours is not a good enough reason for doing them. So many teachers do so many extra hours for extra curricular, practice for orals, even taking students on field trips where they leave the school in early morning and come back late evening. None of those extra free hours are acknowledged. None can be counted for CP.

acequion wrote: »

I have second year English this year and I think the new course is a disaster. Too much material, hugely increased workload for English teachers, most of whom also teach the ever changing senior course and don't get me started on the farce that is outcomes based education! Completely discredited in many countries, dumped as a failure in Australia, South Africa and the US which have all returned to a syllabus approach. Good for you if you like it but ASTI members see through it and fear that the LC will be the next casualty.

This by a million.

Jamfa

acequion wrote: »

I'm sorry but I am heartily sick of reading your claims that the JC dispute was won by the unions when nothing could be further from the truth. You clearly are a huge fan of this new JC which I think beggars belief. You've already pointed out that the dispute was about not assessing our students for state certification and that has been achieved and yes that is correct. But that was never the only issue.There were several other issues as you are well aware,issues that have not been resolved and therefore ASTI members voted it down as they are entitled to do and I wish you'd respect that.

I have second year English this year and I think the new course is a disaster. Too much material, hugely increased workload for English teachers, most of whom also teach the ever changing senior course and don't get me started on the farce that is outcomes based education! Completely discredited in many countries, dumped as a failure in Australia, South Africa and the US which have all returned to a syllabus approach. Good for you if you like it but ASTI members see through it and fear that the LC will be the next casualty.

And I also take issue with this, The ASTI represents 17,000 teachers,do you think we're all thick? And what negotiation? All that has come from the GOV side has been threats and bullying.That is not negotiation. Have you ever heard of collective bargaining? And have you forgotten that many of the injustices such as the new entrants' pay cut came in when union members were straitjacketed in an agreement. Where was the "negotiating" then?

Your union capitulated on everything which in my opinion is very regrettable, but that's what your members voted. Please respect that we voted differently and want to continue to fight against the constant erosion of teachers' working conditions and defend Irish education.

I have 2nd year English and I can't see where you are coming from with the extra workload. The learning outcomes are the focus and not the content guidelines and without a focus on the need to over prepare students for a predictable exam at the end of 3 years there should be much more time available in 3rd year for new material. You have also simplified outcomes based education to a single approach which it isn't and the NCCA have chosen a very different sytle to the countries you have referenced. I take it you haven't attended any CPD in the last 2 years or availed of the professional time to plan etc. It's really not that much to adapt to and the oral language focus is long overdue.

acequion

Jamfa wrote: »

I have 2nd year English and I can't see where you are coming from with the extra workload. The learning outcomes are the focus and not the content guidelines and without a focus on the need to over prepare students for a predictable exam at the end of 3 years there should be much more time available in 3rd year for new material. You have also simplified outcomes based education to a single approach which it isn't and the NCCA have chosen a very different sytle to the countries you have referenced. I take it you haven't attended any CPD in the last 2 years or availed of the professional time to plan etc. It's really not that much to adapt to and the oral language focus is long overdue.

How have the NCCA chosen a very different style to the countries referenced?

In what way have I simplified it to a single approach? In fact I didn't explain my objection to it as it was only one element of my post so I don't see how I simplified something I didn't explain. OBE is goal oriented and child centred which sounds great on paper but in practice is vague,even dubious . No evidence has ever emerged of its effectiveness but anecdotal evidence from the many countries where it's been tried show a lot of dissatisfaction because of issues such as dumbing down, no streaming, over child centred, over focus on outcomes, increased teacher workload etc etc

So why do we need to go from a functioning system to one which has failed elsewhere? Don't forget that this all started out as a money saving exercise, 27 million to be exact.

And no I didn't attend CPD because I fully support my union's directive. As for planning time, I'm already up to my eyes with all my other classes,especially my Leaving Cert's and it quite frankly galls me to be expected to pour so much time and energy into something that is totally unnecessary and [in my opinion] most likely a change for the worse.

Focus on oral was always being done anyway, ie class discussions and debates.

And you have to be joking when you say that there isn't extra work! The course is different, the focus is different, there are lots of new texts, we have to cover so much more. And that's not even considering the CBA's etc which most likely the Gov will force on us all eventually. And you claim there's no extra work!!!

Jamfa

acequion wrote: »

How have the NCCA chosen a very different style to the countries referenced?

In what way have I simplified it to a single approach? In fact I didn't explain my objection to it as it was only one element of my post so I don't see how I simplified something I didn't explain. OBE is goal oriented and child centred which sounds great on paper but in practice is vague,even dubious . No evidence has ever emerged of its effectiveness but anecdotal evidence from the many countries where it's been tried show a lot of dissatisfaction because of issues such as dumbing down, no streaming, over child centred, over focus on outcomes, increased teacher workload etc etc

So why do we need to go from a functioning system to one which has failed elsewhere? Don't forget that this all started out as a money saving exercise, 27 million to be exact.

And no I didn't attend CPD because I fully support my union's directive. As for planning time, I'm already up to my eyes with all my other classes,especially my Leaving Cert's and it quite frankly galls me to be expected to pour so much time and energy into something that is totally unnecessary and [in my opinion] most likely a change for the worse.

Focus on oral was always being done anyway, ie class discussions and debates.

And you have to be joking when you say that there isn't extra work! The course is different, the focus is different, there are lots of new texts, we have to cover so much more. And that's not even considering the CBA's etc which most likely the Gov will force on us all eventually. And you claim there's no extra work!!!

Mark Priestly has written about the use of learning outcomes in curricula design & he raises many of the concerns you mentioned but also benefits of adopting the generic approach which the NCCA have used: http://ncca.ie/en/Publications/Other_Publications/A-Perspective-on-Learning-Outcomes-in-Curriculum-and-Assessment.pdf

39 broad learning outcomes over 3 years is a vastly different approach than have 100s which lead to box ticking.

Of course with a new curriculum there will be extra work in the initial years but based on your logic nothing will ever be allowed change include texts etc. The planning time was hard fought for by both unions & includes substitution cover. I can't understand why anyone wouldn't see it as a positive in reducing the workload of a new curriculum.

Schools also have 3 days they can take this year to plan & prepare for the junior cycle. And finally the junior cycle reforms were not introduced simply as a money saving exercise & in their current format they will cost far more over the period of 2013-2025.

judeboy101

Jamfa wrote: »

Mark Priestly has written about the use of learning outcomes in curricula design & he raises many of the concerns you mentioned but also benefits of adopting the generic approach which the NCCA have used: http://ncca.ie/en/Publications/Other_Publications/A-Perspective-on-Learning-Outcomes-in-Curriculum-and-Assessment.pdf

39 broad learning outcomes over 3 years is a vastly different approach than have 100s which lead to box ticking.

Of course with a new curriculum there will be extra work in the initial years but based on your logic nothing will ever be allowed change include texts etc. The planning time was hard fought for by both unions & includes substitution cover. I can't understand why anyone wouldn't see it as a positive in reducing the workload of a new curriculum.

Schools also have 3 days they can take this year to plan & prepare for the junior cycle. And finally the junior cycle reforms were not introduced simply as a money saving exercise & in their current format they will cost far more over the period of 2013-2025.

39 become 40, 40 becomes 50......latest word is that structural reform of posts will revolve around the phasing out of AP and SDP and replacing with a new generic post(at a lower rate). So it seems this is where they are finding the money.

Villain

acequion wrote: »

I think you need to wake up and get into the real world. The world of blatantly unequal pay scales,the world where most young teachers will never qualify for a mortgage, the world where if they hang on for 40 years they'll get out with a pittance for a pension at age 67.

You obviously don't understand that some of us, yes cribbing older teachers, are outraged at these injustices and are willing to face down a Government which couldn't care less about teachers or education. And that's fine if you can't see where we're coming from but it would be nice if you'd stop with the the narrow minded remarks.

A government that couldn't care less about education?? Are you having a laugh now or just trying to wind people up??

Our education system is laughable when looked at in today's context and every time the Department try to modernize it the unions kick up a fuss e.g. take coding that ye managed to reduce to selective subject. As someone in the I.T. sector who try's to hire staff on a fairly regular basis our education system is at least 10 years behind the economy and society.

So maybe when ye stop cribbing about every change and are happy to actually work a proper days work for a decent wage I will stop with the narrow minded remarks.

judeboy101

Villain wrote: »

A government that couldn't care less about education?? Are you having a laugh now or just trying to wind people up??

Our education system is laughable when looked at in today's context and every time the Department try to modernize it the unions kick up a fuss e.g. take coding that ye managed to reduce to selective subject. As someone in the I.T. sector who try's to hire staff on a fairly regular basis our education system is at least 10 years behind the economy and society.

So maybe when ye stop cribbing about every change and are happy to actually work a proper days work for a decent wage I will stop with the narrow minded remarks.

What is this fixation with coding? Realistically how many jobs are there out there for coders as a percentage of jobs? I think someone in the DES watches too much Mr. ROBOT.

man_no_plan

Villain wrote: »

A government that couldn't care less about education?? Are you having a laugh now or just trying to wind people up??

Our education system is laughable when looked at in today's context and every time the Department try to modernize it the unions kick up a fuss e.g. take coding that ye managed to reduce to selective subject. As someone in the I.T. sector who try's to hire staff on a fairly regular basis our education system is at least 10 years behind the economy and society.

So maybe when ye stop cribbing about every change and are happy to actually work a proper days work for a decent wage I will stop with the narrow minded remarks.

Coding is like Latin, love it or hate it. Beating people to make them learn Latin wasn't the best idea ever. Train teachers to teach coding first then of course make it an optional subject. It's not for everyone.

Thus is part of the problem, everyone knows what schools should be doing! If you don't know and you don't know children you don't know what schools need.