Lexus CT200h or Civic 1.6 i-dtec

walus

Hi,

My wife is after getting a new job that requires 60 km commute one way. She will be driving on a typical national road doing probably 60km/h of average speed. Since this is 5 days a week so > 30k kilometres per year. Strictly speaking diesel area or a maybe a hybrid?
I've identified two cars that are fuel efficient and have a reputation for reliability - Lexus CT200h and Honda Civic 1.6 I-dtec. Lexus is probably a better finished car with nicer interior, Honda on the other hand more practical and probably more fun to drive (manual gearbox over a lethargic CVT). I can get Lexus from 11/12 year while Honda will be slightly younger 2013/14 in the same price bracket. The lexus would have < 60 k and Honda < 45k kilometres on the clock.
I'm planning on bringing either from UK as there is a good selection of those and sterling seats low at the moment.

These are two completely different cars that the only thing they have in common is the fuel efficiency. And here comes the question which one to go for? Any suggestions? I'd appreciate any comments especially from those boardies who own or owned either car.
Thanks

Thanks,

Soarer

Not to be all hippy about things, but would a Leaf suit?

R.O.R

I drove a Civic 1.6 out to meet a customer recently. From around the Red Cow area and met him at the City North Hotel off the M1, which is roughly 50km of moving motorway speeds. In Eco Mode I wasn't holding anyone up and was the same speed I'd drive everyday on the same journey - achieved 3.5L/100km for that journey, which is just over 80mpg. Keeping it in the eco sector (dash turns different colours depending on how economical you are driving) also gives you something to do on a long monotonous journey that you do everyday.

Yesterday I took the New Prius long term demo we have here on the slightly longer journey home - 62km each way. Stuck that in to Eco Mode before I set off, and activated the Radar Cruise as soon as I got on the M50. Pulled in to my driveway last night with the on board computer showing fuel consumption of an astonishing 3.3L/100km (86mpg)! Driving myself rather than letting the car accelerate and brake could possibly have improved on that as well.

Got back in to work this morning with the car showing 3.7l/100km (a mere 76mpg) over the total journey of 124km, but M50 wasn't great this morning due to the bus strike. Radar Cruise activated as soon as I got on the M1, so it's not bad.

The new Prius is better technology than the CT200h you would be looking at, so I wouldn't expect the same returns. Based on my experiences above, the Honda is going to be the cheaper one to run given the difference in price between petrol & diesel, but there wouldn't be much in it.

Before the long spin in the Honda I collected it from Honda and had a bit of a blast through Citywest and it can be a nice nippy little hatchback that you can throw around and have a bit of fun in. The Prius is no way sporty (although the CT200h might be a little) but it is soo easy to drive, that it's the first vehicle anyone in the office goes for when they need to go out, despite non of us really wanting it, or myself wanting to like it.

Personally, I'd probably go for the Honda. Both brands are known for reliability, but I'd say if the Honda goes wrong, it's going to be easier to fix. I'd also be loathe to let anyone loose on the Lexus other than Lexus technicians, whereas the Honda should be OK to be serviced by anyone, which again will keep costs down.

HTH

Nuw

I didn't own any of the two but test drove the two when I was looking for a car myself. My younger self would probably have prefered the dynamics of the honda but the quiet nature of the lex and its interior would have probably won me over, should I've not had to reconsider buying a car altogether due to unforeseen events...

Anyway, very different driving styles these two, and pretty safe bet comes to reliability and fuel economy. Go and have a drive for yourself in both, see how you like them. In my eyes, there is no wrong choice here.

grogi

walus wrote: »

Honda on the other hand more practical and probably more fun to drive (manual gearbox over a lethargic CVT).
Thanks,

Be under no illusion - the CVT is the most efficient gearbox the maths can build. The car might seem slow, but by no means it is slow. The response from the gearbox is instant - and it comes from both - petrol and electric motor. It really pulls hard...

I come from a Prius and after initial adjustments, I could have a bit of fun in it too. CT200h is a bit lower than a Prius - thus rolls less and handles better.

R.O.R wrote: »

Personally, I'd probably go for the Honda. Both brands are known for reliability, but I'd say if the Honda goes wrong, it's going to be easier to fix. I'd also be loathe to let anyone loose on the Lexus other than Lexus technicians, whereas the Honda should be OK to be serviced by anyone, which again will keep costs down.

HTH

Great write-up, thanks for that.

I don't however agree with the cost to run. With a HSD hybrid you will not be bothered with: brake pads, brake discs (my Prius Mk2 had 120kkm and still around 50% of OE pads left), timing belt (chain driven) or accessories belt (everything is electric). It really costs to run as much petrol, oil and three filters.

colm_mcm

A blind monkey could service the Lexus. It's just an Auris hybrid for rich people.

I quite like the CT. It was a complete flop, but makes great sense second hand.

Some of the bespoke systems like the audio system for example in it would scare me if I had to repair or replace as used parts supply is so limited.

walus

Thanks guys for your comments. All very valuable. I did consider Leaf but she will also travel to other locations and with the charger network still not rolled out properly it is not an option.
I would expect Honda to be slightly more economical to drive and probably cheaper to service. Also it will be certainly easier to sell than Lexus. On the other hand this is a Lexus we are talking about with great interior and a price tag of 1/3 of what it costed new. Also there are signs of anti diesel propaganda gaining in strength so maybe the hybrid is the way to go?

colm_mcm

If I was being a ct200h it would have to have the F sport exterior.
Look at them on autotrader.
I think SE-L premium is the best uk spec.

walus

Test drove the Civic today. Spacious for a small car, reasonably responsive on the road. Interior looks a bit cheap but well put together. The best of all is the engine though. Smooth for a diesel and only noisy when pushed hard. Great fuel economy - 4.5l average. Coming from a naturally aspired petrol I disliked having to go through the gears a lot to get the car going. But that is the nature of a diesel I suppose. Luckily the gearbox is very good.
Booked a test drive in CT 200h next week. I bet it is going to be a completely different ride.

CiniO

Keep us updated

walus

I've identified three CT200h cars in UK. All seem very legit but still will be doing the Dekra check on them. Started looking and insurance and almost got a hart attack. These guys seem to charging whatever they want for cars this days. Best quote so far is 1050 euro (comprehensive) for a female driver with 9+ years as named driver on my policy and 4 years as a main driver on her own insurance from 2010-14. Ridiculous to say the least.

bazz26

Insurance has gone up across the board for everyone. Mine up went up over €150 on last year despite me having many years of claims free driving and holding a clean license.

walus

I've rang 6 insurance companies. Only one person told me that since she has got an EU driving license the premium is 20% higher than if she had a full Irish license. Good to know. Pity that I had to spend all day on the phone to learn that...

Nuw

walus wrote: »

I've rang 6 insurance companies. Only one person told me that since she has got an EU driving license the premium is 20% higher than if she had a full Irish license. Good to know. Pity that I had to spend all day on the phone to learn that...

That actually depend on the insurance underwriter policy, at least for us it did. Have you tried Bank of Ireland? They didn't charge us up for having an EU license.

walus

Nuw wrote: »

That actually depend on the insurance underwriter policy, at least for us it did. Have you tried Bank of Ireland? They didn't charge us up for having an EU license.

Yes. 1524 euros for the same.

Nuw

walus wrote: »

Yes. 1524 euros for the same.

:eek: ... were the two cars around the same figure?

walus

Nuw wrote: »

:eek: ... were the two cars around the same figure?

Yes.

Nuw

walus wrote: »

Yes.

I knew the insurance prices have gone up but this is quite mad... maybe a broker could help.

I guess a smaller car would keep these premiums lower, a honda jazz is still quite spacious and should be well reliable.
In the same line of thought, a Yaris hybrid is quite a decent place to be and should tick a lot of boxes (starting with the bullet-proof reliability).

However both cars would be less comfortable on longer runs.

walus

A quick update...
Closing in on one CT200h in UK. Seems like a genuine car with FSH from Lexus. The insurance is a bummer though - best I could get is 800e fully comprehensive. Ridiculous to be honest...

colm_mcm

Has it got a Mark Levinson sound system?

walus

colm_mcm wrote: »

Has it got a Mark Levinson sound system?

No.

walus

I drove a new and second hand CT200h this weekend. I must say it is a fine car. In the normal mode feels very smooth and relaxed but once put into the sport mode it is more throttle responsive and heavier on steering. I was really impressed how the hybrid drive train is implemented. Regardless of the type of engine used (electric, petrol or both) it is quiet and smooth so you have to check on the dash to see what way the hybrid operates at the given moment. But the best of all is the interior - top quality materials, fit and finish excellent - in my opinion better than BMW and Merc in this department. I like the car a lot and it is definitely one I'm going to buy. The whole driving experience was very relaxed. Perfect car for daily commuting, supper smooth and relaxing to drive.
In terms of comparison with diesel Civic - well no comparison really. Different car, in a different class.

aidanki

how about the mercedes A class ? should be similar to the lexus and might even be a diesel model

walus

aidanki wrote: »

how about the mercedes A class ? should be similar to the lexus and might even be a diesel model

I would have to go for the A class from 2013 onwards to be doing a fair comparison with the Lexus CT and I do not have the budget for that. Earlier A class is just not in the same league.
I normally don't care how old is the car as long as it is in good condition and so 2011 CT fits the bill just perfect - mileage < 50k kilometres, lowest road tax brackets, 50+ mpg.

Soarer

walus wrote: »

I would have to go for the A class from 2013 onwards to be doing a fair comparison with the Lexus CT and I do not have the budget for that. Earlier A class is just not in the same league.
I normally don't care how old is the car as long as it is in good condition and so 2011 CT fits the bill just perfect - mileage < 50k kilometres, lowest road tax brackets, 50+ mpg.

And minimal VRT, which means you can spend more on the car.

walus

Soarer wrote: »

And minimal VRT, which means you can spend more on the car.

Yes, the vrt is very small - €1k.

walus

Just a quick update.
I bought CT200h, drove 750 kilometres already and I can see idea behind the hybrid system. On country roads it gives 60 mpg without even trying hard. I was able to go past a few villages in electric mode only. Fast motorway driving returns 50 mpg and this is mainly because there is very little energy harvesting to do and the petrol engine must operate all the time. The electric motor only gives the extra boost when the car accelerates. Country roads is where the hybrid really excels.

grogi

walus wrote: »

Just a quick update.
I bought CT200h, drove 750 kilometres already and I can see idea behind the hybrid system. On country roads it gives 60 mpg without even trying hard. I was able to go past a few villages in electric mode only. Fast motorway driving returns 50 mpg and this is mainly because there is very little energy harvesting to do and the petrol engine must operate all the time. The electric motor only gives the extra boost when the car accelerates. Country roads is where the hybrid really excels.

Don't forget that on motorway the ICE works in Atkinson cycle. In a conventional engine setup it is not feasible and Otto cycle must be used to give a decent performance. That alone gives a significant efficiency boost, even if there is no regenerative breaking happening...

Apart from ACT engines in VAG (which switch unneeded cylinders off), I am not aware of any petrol that would be able to match the motorway performance of HSD... Being a always hybrid pays off, not only in S&S traffic

colm_mcm

The CT has hit that magic price point where it becomes viable for the masses. Hope you're lucky with it!

walus

I would have never considered looking at CT as I thought it would be way too expensive. Somehow it isn't and for a compact type of car is a very viable proposition indeed. Week sterling definitely helped to facilitate the purchase, so happy days for now. Impresive piece of technology it is and the way the software manages both engines and the battery is fantastic (as an engineer I'm very impressed).
Pity it will not be my car...

CiniO

How does CT200h compare to civic 9th gen sizewise inside the cabin / boot size?

walus

CiniO wrote: »

How does CT200h compare to civic 9th gen sizewise inside the cabin / boot size?

Civic is more practical and has more space at the back seat and in the booth. And there is virtually nothing else it is better at than the CT200h.

Bigus

Will the wife EVER get to drive her new Lexus ?

Same thing happened to a lady I sold my wife's Prius to , she never got to drive it.

CiniO

walus wrote: »

Civic is more practical and has more space at the back seat and in the booth. And there is virtually nothing else it is better at than the CT200h.

Heh, maybe just that except from 1.4 version, civic is faster than CT200h

walus

Bigus wrote: »

Will the wife EVER get to drive her new Lexus ?

Same thing happened to a lady I sold my wife's Prius to , she never got to drive it.

That remains to be seen indeed...:)

walus

CiniO wrote: »

Heh, maybe just that except from 1.4 version, civic is faster than CT200h

The civic I drove was 1.6 dtec and no it was not faster as such. Honda make great engines but even though it was still agricultural. Same as all diesels with manual gearboxes - lots of shifting to marry up with narrow power bandwidth. Not my thing. If anything diesel must be paired up with an auto box for me.
Also interior plastics looked cheap, a bit disappointed with that and would expect better from Honda.

CiniO

walus wrote: »

The civic I drove was 1.6 dtec and no it was not faster as such. Honda make great engines but even though it was still agricultural. Same as all diesels with manual gearboxes - lots of shifting to marry up with narrow power bandwidth. Not my thing. If anything diesel must be paired up with an auto box for me.
Also interior plastics looked cheap, a bit disappointed with that and would expect better from Honda.

Actually you're right.
1.6 i-DTEC makes 0-100km/h in 10.5s, while CT200h makes 0-100km/h in 9.8s (according to spec anyway).
I wasn't aware that 1.6 i-DTEC was so slow.
2.2 i-DTEC is faster though, same as 1.8 i-VTEC and obviously typeR

walus

CiniO wrote: »

Actually you're right.
1.6 i-DTEC makes 0-100km/h in 10.5s, while CT200h makes 0-100km/h in 9.8s (according to spec anyway).
I wasn't aware that 1.6 i-DTEC was so slow.
2.2 i-DTEC is faster though, same as 1.8 i-VTEC and obviously typeR

Never looked at it this way. Those figures really mean nothing in a day to day motoring as you hardly be doing lots of 0-60 sprints. I think last time I did it I still had the old good Legacy.

The CT seemed much more relaxing car to drive that woul fit into the daily commute scenario much better. I did 500 kilometres in it in one day and had felt no fatigue whatsoever. As a tall guy 6ft3in I frequently have issues with finding comfortable driving position in smaller cars i.e. Had an i30 for a rental recently and after half an hour drive wanted to jump out of it as my lower back was killing me. I only realised it was i30 when I dropped it off. All the way I thought it was i20 as somehow it felt small, definitely not in Golf class.

grogi

CiniO wrote: »

Actually you're right.
1.6 i-DTEC makes 0-100km/h in 10.5s, while CT200h makes 0-100km/h in 9.8s (according to spec anyway).
I wasn't aware that 1.6 i-DTEC was so slow.
2.2 i-DTEC is faster though, same as 1.8 i-VTEC and obviously typeR

eCVT does make it HSD (CT, IS, Prius, Auris, Yaris etc) much faster (in typical road situations) than car with manual gearbox with similar paper performance. There is virtually no lag between pressing the throttle and maximum power constantly pushing the car forward.

You can lazily cruise and instantaneously get full throttle... A human simply cannot shift that fast...

obi604

Hi.

In regard to the ct200h, I think it has a CVT box. Is this very noisy when you accelerate hard?

colm_mcm

The engine revs up high enough on strong acceleration, so yeah, kinda.
You get used to it quickly though.

grogi

obi604 wrote: »

Hi.

In regard to the ct200h, I think it has a CVT box. Is this very noisy when you accelerate hard?

It delivers the power in a different matter to the more traditional ICE.

In an ICE if you push the throttle fully down at 3000 rpm, you will not get much noiser. But you will not get 100% of avaialble power as well, until the car revs up to 5500-6000 rpm. At that stage it will be as noisy as the HSD.

In the Toyota hybrid, the noise is really proportional to the requested power. You push the throttle fully down, you get 100% of power and a bit of noise. Push it halfway there, you'll get 50% of power and around 3000 rpm.

Hybrid servers the power as you request it, gives you the flexibility. You want gentle acceleration, don't push it to hard. It will not be noisy but will accelerate even faster than traditional manual at similar noise level. If you want full power - push it to the metal. The noise follows, but it will be fast.

It might not feel nippy, but it really is.

obi604

grogi wrote: »

It delivers the power in a different matter to the more traditional ICE.

In an ICE if you push the throttle fully down at 3000 rpm, you will not get much noiser. But you will not get 100% of avaialble power as well, until the car revs up to 5500-6000 rpm. At that stage it will be as noisy as the HSD.

In the Toyota hybrid, the noise is really proportional to the requested power. You push the throttle fully down, you get 100% of power and a bit of noise. Push it halfway there, you'll get 50% of power and around 3000 rpm.

Hybrid servers the power as you request it, gives you the flexibility. You want gentle acceleration, don't push it to hard. It will not be noisy but will accelerate even faster than traditional manual at similar noise level. If you want full power - push it to the metal. The noise follows, but it will be fast.

It might not feel nippy, but it really is.

thank you, I like the idea of a lexus CT 200 H, the prius it a bit ugly for me.

but ive read about the CVT on these cars being very noisy.

Is it the same engine and power in the lexus as the prius 1.8 ?

colm_mcm

Yep, the running gear is the same as the 3rd gen Prius.

obi604

colm_mcm wrote: »

Yep, the running gear is the same as the 3rd gen Prius.

Is the Lexus a 2 litre ? (Versus 1.8 Prius)

Meaning Lexus is quicker ?

colm_mcm

Nope, it's 1.8

It is 0.1 of a second quicker than a comparable Prius though.

obi604

colm_mcm wrote: »

Nope, it's 1.8

Oh sugar, right. Thought the "200" in ct200h may have meant a 2 litre.

colm_mcm

That's what they wanted you to think.

bazz26

Prius, Auris Hybrid and CT200h are all on the same platform with the same drivetrain.

obi604

bazz26 wrote: »

Prius, Auris Hybrid and CT200h are all on the same platform with the same drivetrain.

I think the auris from 2013 is nearly nicer looking than Lexus.

colm_mcm

It is, the Lexus has a few akward bits, especially the LEDs on the headlights. It's got a different level of luxury on it though.