Baptise or not to Baptise?

DeadlyByDesign

Hi guys

Due in May here. Myself any my partner do not want to christen the baby as we do not believe in a faith as such and don't want to force it on the child so he/she can make up their own mind when the are old enough.

The big question is though are schools still clinging on to the whole "your child must be christened" to enroll in schools? I have heard that has been relaxed lately or am I hearing wrong?

_Brian

It's not essential but can make things easier.

Round here "Catholic" schools give first priority to those who are christened and then after they have been accommodated will accept those of other or no faiths.

TBH I'd just do it for the sake of having a better choice of schools.

No matter what moaning there schools patronage thing is stuck at an impass, the RC church own the sites and in some cases still the buildings to they will have their influence. The opportunities to change this was missed with the settlement over clerical abuse. Even if the RC church was convinced to sell their interests the state couldn't afford it. Topped bt the fact xt that the church see this as a legitimate way to push forward the religion, if only a small % keep the faith then it will be seen as worth while.

The government can't just take the schools/grounds as that would be illegal and so the status quo is likely to remain going forward.

livedadream

depends on the ethos of the school.
you will have to check with the schools directly.

DeadlyByDesign

_Brian wrote: »

It's not essential but can make things easier.

Round here "Catholic" schools give first priority to those who are christened and then after they have been accommodated will accept those of other or no faiths.

TBH I'd just do it for the sake of having a better choice of schools.

No matter what moaning there schools patronage thing is stuck at an impass, the RC church own the sites and in some cases still the buildings to they will have their influence. The opportunities to change this was missed with the settlement over clerical abuse. Even if the RC church was convinced to sell their interests the state couldn't afford it. Topped bt the fact xt that the church see this as a legitimate way to push forward the religion, if only a small % keep the faith then it will be seen as worth while.

The government can't just take the schools/grounds as that would be illegal and so the status quo is likely to remain going forward.

Thanks,we have discussed "doing it for the sake of more choice", still feels wrong, but I think it might be something we have to look into.

livedadream

the one thing i do always say it (and just because it happened a friend of mine)
think long term.
a friend of mine got engaged, was planning the wedding when she found out she couldnt get married in the big white church wedding she wanted because her future husband wasnt baptised.
he had to go though the whole thing... over the summer so they could. was a total pain for them.

eoinzy2000

I baptised for the sake of the same. While I feel like a complete unprincipled hypocrite and lacking conviction, I feel it definitely benefits my 3 children in relation to both initial school application and inclusion in school teaching. Some of the horse **** they come home spouting is old school mindless fantasy religious ****e, but I let it slide. I don't give my measly, unprincipled opinions on the matter!!!! Kids are happy and included in all lessons and free to believe or not, as they choose. This is not to say they wouldn't be equally as happy if I was strong and principled!!!

DeadlyByDesign

livedadream wrote: »

the one thing i do always say it (and just because it happened a friend of mine)
think long term.
a friend of mine got engaged, was planning the wedding when she found out she couldnt get married in the big white church wedding she wanted because her future husband wasnt baptised.
he had to go though the whole thing... over the summer so they could. was a total pain for them.

Literally never thought of that...I think I know which way my decision will have to swing here. Just convincing the other half now, as she is dead against baptising. She is a very principled woman!

Religion is deadly isn't it?!

gmg678

we were in the same boat.
get the child baptize to make it easier for school enrollment that is what we did,
I was religious growing up but lost that type of faith a long time ago.
I will not push anything on kids will let them make up own mind when they are older.
schools still hold onto that ethos of first choice.

eamonnq

DeadlyByDesign wrote: »

Religion is deadly isn't it?!

Never a truer word spoken.

livedadream

DeadlyByDesign wrote: »

Literally never thought of that...I think I know which way my decision will have to swing here. Just convincing the other half now, as she is dead against baptising. She is a very principled woman!

Religion is deadly isn't it?!

yeah the poor groom had to sit though classes and stuff once a week for the summer, nothing to major but he was amazed by how many other people were there. same thing parents didnt want to baptise for the sake of it but didnt think down the line.

i know civil weddings etc are becoming more popular and humanist etc but i dunno i dont see any harm in baptising, gives you the option anyway sure.

TheDoc

DeadlyByDesign wrote: »

Hi guys

Due in May here. Myself any my partner do not want to christen the baby as we do not believe in a faith as such and don't want to force it on the child so he/she can make up their own mind when the are old enough.

The big question is though are schools still clinging on to the whole "your child must be christened" to enroll in schools? I have heard that has been relaxed lately or am I hearing wrong?

We were in the same boat as you on our first child, and again now in the next while when no.2 arrives.

Neither or us are religous but we decided to just go ahead with the baptism to avoid any issues with school (this was two years ago, so it was a requirement for a number of schools in our area, not sure on the changes now).We figure our daughter like us, can come to an age where she either continues her faith or just ignores it like we did.

My GF brought up a good point also about "kids being kids" in school, and there maybe being an unnecessary bullying/slagging aspect should there be religion classes or things and our daughter is separated for being different.

In the end we have just treated it as a requirement for schooling, and down to our daughter what she wants to do when shes old enough. Don't feel hypocritical about it, think its just a shocking state of affairs that the church is still so ingrained into our society and state schooling, in 2016.

To be honest there was even this little meeting thing we had to go to before the baptism in the Church's community area, and it was a pretty on point talk that focused more on the baby being introduced into the local community etc. So it felt like even the Church and their volunteers knew most of the people in the meeting where there just to get it done for the schooling.

lazygal

We haven't gotten ours done.
We're not hypocrites, we don't believe anything and I have no respect for those who go along with this charade whatsoever.
If you can live with the hypocrisy, go ahead. But I resent my parents signing me into the catholic church and they now wish they had thought it through because they have many, many regrets about it.
I will deal with schools if and when it is an issue. But I could not look my children in the eye and tell them we handed them over to a church we despise because of nebulous concerns about their marriage ceremonies in the future or because of schools.

As for bullying, if religious children bully those who aren't that says a lot about how those parents raised their children. I was bullied for wearing glasses, the school dealt with it and it was fine. Bullying problems is probably one of the most laughable arguments for baptising I've heard.

livedadream

lazygal wrote: »

We haven't gotten ours done.
We're not hypocrites, we don't believe anything and I have no respect for those who go along with this charade whatsoever.
If can live with the hypocrisy, go ahead. But I resent my parents signing me into the catholic church and they now wish they had thought it through because they have many, many regrets about it.
I will deal with schools if and when it is an issue. But I could not look my children in the eye and tell them we handed them over to a church we despise because of nebulous concerns about their marriage ceremonies in the future or because of schools.

jeez tell us how you really feel there lazygal

lazygal

livedadream wrote: »

jeez tell us how you really feel there lazygal

Yeah, I'm not going to sugar coat it.

So long as non religious patents keep baptising their kids ' just because' for stupid reasons like they don't want them bullied, or so they can have a church wedding when they grow up, nothing will change in this country.

It's ridiculous & hypocritical.

MightyMunster

DeadlyByDesign wrote: »

livedadream wrote: »

the one thing i do always say it (and just because it happened a friend of mine)
think long term.
a friend of mine got engaged, was planning the wedding when she found out she couldnt get married in the big white church wedding she wanted because her future husband wasnt baptised.
he had to go though the whole thing... over the summer so they could. was a total pain for them.

Literally never thought of that...I think I know which way my decision will have to swing here. Just convincing the other half now, as she is dead against baptising. She is a very principled woman!

Religion is deadly isn't it?!

Don't think this is true in roman Catholic Church as there is a dispensation procedure which is the same for atheists, protestants, Jews etc...
Fill a 1 page form with the priest, he sends to Bishop who grants the dispensation. I've done it and so have a few of my friends.

Mambaman

Yeah just fall in line like the rest. The sooner people stand up to the church the sooner this blatant discrimination can end. I hope your other half tells you to grow a pair and sticks to her principles.

livedadream

lazygal wrote: »

Yeah, I'm not going to sugar coat it.

clearly, but there a big difference between offering your opinion on something and offending others in the process for the sake of it.

your issues with your parents are your own, resentment or whatever. but that doesnt mean you should plant the idea that OP's kids will resent them for trying their best, as im sure your parents did.

everyones just doing their best for their kids.

lazygal

Mambaman wrote: »

Yeah just fall in line like the rest. The sooner people stand up to the church the sooner this blatant discrimination can end. I hope your other half tells you to grow a pair and sticks to her principles.

There's a reason the church calls its followers sheep.

livedadream

MightyMunster wrote: »

Don't think this is true in roman Catholic Church as there is a dispensation procedure which is the same for atheists, protestants, Jews etc...
Fill a 1 page form with the priest, he sends to Bishop who grants the dispensation. I've done it and so have a few of my friends.

he was Lithuanian so i'm not sure what he was.
she was roman catholic and they wanted to get married in the Honan in UCC.

there were defo forms but he had to go to classes/get togethers whatever they were called out in frankfield church.

DeadlyByDesign

lazygal wrote: »

There's a reason the church calls its followers sheep.

Mambaman wrote: »

Yeah just fall in line like the rest. The sooner people stand up to the church the sooner this blatant discrimination can end. I hope your other half tells you to grow a pair and sticks to her principles.

All right lads put the pitch forks down, I am on the fence here and asking a simple question. I have never done this parenting thing before so be gentle.

Orion

Mambaman wrote: »

Yeah just fall in line like the rest. The sooner people stand up to the church the sooner this blatant discrimination can end. I hope your other half tells you to grow a pair and sticks to her principles.

That's quite enough of that. Be civil or stop posting.

TheDoc

haha love the responses.

There is enough worries in modern life, without me having to limit my children to what schools are available due to the state not being able to adequately maintain modern entry requirements, or me having to worry about my daughter feeling weird or different when shes sitting in another room while others are in religion. These are children, not at the ages to comprehend the more complex nuisances of choice and decision. Kids dont want to be different.

But whatever, I take exception to it being called a "stupid" reason, but it's of so little real consequence it's not even worth me bothering going into more detail.

livedadream

DeadlyByDesign wrote: »

All right lads put the pitch forks down, I am on the fence here and asking a simple question. I have never done this parenting thing before so be gentle.

the most important part of parenting is making sure your kid knows they are loved.

if practically impossible to fcuk up your child that bad now a days. lifes tough but your doing the right thing by questioning the norm.

im a list gal so pros and cons are always good.

Triceratops Ballet

OP I wouldn't let the wedding thing be a deciding factor, it's going to be a minimum of 18 years before that's an issue and who knows what position the church will take then, with civil marriage numbers increasing, in 18 years time, I imagine the church will have to adapt to that and amend their rules. Though I already suspect it's not an issue as people of different faiths can already marry in the catholic church.

As for school I think I read that educate together opened 9 new schools this September alone, and if they continue to grow at that rate, by the time your little one is ready for school there should be plenty of options

Akrasia

livedadream wrote: »

clearly, but there a big difference between offering your opinion on something and offending others in the process for the sake of it.

your issues with your parents are your own, resentment or whatever. but that doesnt mean you should plant the idea that OP's kids will resent them for trying their best, as im sure your parents did.

everyones just doing their best for their kids.

What was offensive about her post?
She has a valid opinion about how someone can pretend to believe in something just for convenience, and she expressed it honestly.

Why should Lazygal have to hide her honestly felt beliefs just because someone else might be offended

As for me, I have 3 kids, none of them are baptised, 2 of them are in a local gaelscoil and we never pretended that they were religious to get them in.

I know that some parents have difficulty getting into their preferred school, I think this fear is worse than the actual state of affairs, the vast majority of schools will accept children of any faith, but in a tiny minority, the schools are stuck in the 1960s and openly discriminate. But regardless of this, baptising your kids into a religious institution has long term consequences on their growth and development, and it also perpetuates the system that allows discrimination against atheists and people of other religions.

I have seen the junior infants religious materials, and while some of it is benign, the focus is on worshipping god, thanking god for everything good in their lives, praying to him for protection and strength. When it comes to communion class and first confession, the ideas of sins and the inherent worthlessness of humans takes up a central focus of the year. The kids are taught that they're born bad, and that they sin all the time and there's nothing they can do about it, and that the only reason god loves them is because he's prepared to forgive them for all the terrible things they do all the time...


The idea that 'god' provides for people is inherently wrong, because it takes away from the achievements of people who work hard and accomplish things on their own, and with the help and support of the school and their friends and family.

So make your choice. Do you want to be in the position of reinforcing all this doctrine to your child, telling him or her that it is true during the most formative years of their lives, or do you want to be honest and encourage your children to think clearly and for themselves.

endacl

livedadream wrote: »

the one thing i do always say it (and just because it happened a friend of mine)
think long term.
a friend of mine got engaged, was planning the wedding when she found out she couldnt get married in the big white church wedding she wanted because her future husband wasnt baptised.
he had to go though the whole thing... over the summer so they could. was a total pain for them.

So, an obvious non believer was allowed marry in church because he agreed to go through the the motions?

It's hard to take the piss of out the church when they won't even take themselves seriously...



OP, if you and your other half aren't believers, don't bother with the pantomime. The only reason you're even considering it is because so many non-believers have done before you.

o1s1n

TheDoc wrote: »

haha love the responses.

There is enough worries in modern life, without me having to limit my children to what schools are available due to the state not being able to adequately maintain modern entry requirements, or me having to worry about my daughter feeling weird or different when shes sitting in another room while others are in religion. These are children, not at the ages to comprehend the more complex nuisances of choice and decision. Kids dont want to be different.

But whatever, I take exception to it being called a "stupid" reason, but it's of so little real consequence it's not even worth me bothering going into more detail.

I was one of those children who was opted out of religion from an early age in school. I stayed in the same classroom, just drew or did some other work instead.

To be honest I thought it was great and the other kids seemed to be jealous of my extra drawing time.

As I got older, a friend of mine had a chat with his mam and he opted out too. It was great hanging back in the classroom while all the other kids went to mass to prep for their confirmation and the likes.

It was especially handy in secondary as I'd get a load of homework done during school time.

So definitely don't assume it will automatically have a negative impact on a child, as from my own experience (and I've known quite a few other people to go through the same thing) there was nothing bad about it at all.

looksee

Where are the 85% who want Catholic schools and Catholic teaching in schools? So far no one has offered the suggestion that a child should be baptised for the care of its soul.

keyboard_cat

TheDoc wrote: »

My GF brought up a good point also about "kids being kids" in school, and there maybe being an unnecessary bullying/slagging aspect should there be religion classes or things and our daughter is separated for being different.

I was not baptized and went to a religious school i was never bullied for not being baptized. im not even sure how you would bully someone for not being baptized!

Firstly Congrats op!
However for this discrimination to not be an issue for your children's children people should oppose it now and not just take the easy way out and get baptized so they can pick and choose a school
Also your child will thank you when they can opt out of religion in secondary school!

endacl

livedadream wrote: »

she was roman catholic and they wanted to get married in the Honan in UCC.

That's the way it is these days, I suppose. Style over substance...

If she hadn't been a graduate of UCC, would she have done a degree to get married there?

TheDoc

keyboard_cat wrote: »

I was not baptized and went to a religious school i was never bullied for not being baptized. im not even sure how you would bully someone for not being baptized!

Firstly Congrats op!
However for this discrimination to not be an issue for your children's children people should oppose it now and not just take the easy way out and get baptized so they can pick and choose a school
Also your child will thank you when they can opt out of religion in secondary school!

Maybe its just different areas, when I was in school I remember others being bullied and slagged for being different, and not just by kids.

I'm not saying its definitely going to happen, just removes the chance. She can do what me and my GF did, got an age, around early teens, deciding it was bollox, and that was that.

I called bollox on religion in secondary school, and similar to you's above it was no major deal. Although I was in a Christian Brothers, so I was sent down to the Canteen with those of non-catholic religions and we just did homework or messed around. But I got some **** for it, not so much from classmates cause in all honesty no one gave a **** about religion, but some of the legacy brothers gave me some **** about it.

Anyway, the wonderful world of parenting, we've made a choice that we feel best for our child, I've tried to outline why we made the choice for the OP, and while I appreciate the critique of said decision, there is a wonderful pair of V's being flicked in your direction

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Sesame

If you are in a over-subscribed area like Dublin and surrounds, then yes a baptism cert seems to help get on the list for Catholic schools.

In other parts of the country, as long as you live in the area of the school and its not over-subscribed, then there's no point baptising (unless you need to get that original sin wiped off the baby).

I'm not a believer and couldn't morally baptise to appease my inlaws, despite their subtle remarks. It would have meant making some untrue declaration in front of family and make a hypocrite out of me. I not only do';t believe in god, but I'm opposed to the grip the church has in this country's education and health system.

With this being a current political hot topic, I do think change is on the horizon and by the time your offspring is starting school, I'd hope that there will be more alternative options available than a Catholic primary school.

The problem will remain if we all go baptising our children and adding them the the Churches list of loyal followers. The number speak for themselves and the churches will use that to support their argument for why we need to keep the schools under church patronage.

I'm hoping that the Census results, which will be released early next year, will indicate a fall in members of the Catholic church, down from the 84% of the population in the last Census in 2011. Sadly, if its still high then I can't see much change on the horizon. 96% of our schools are under the COI or RC patronage.

livedadream

endacl wrote: »

That's the way it is these days, I suppose. Style over substance...

If she hadn't been a graduate of UCC, would she have done a degree to get married there?

they were both graduates of UCC (although I hear a few quid into the hand can sort that issue out, dwindling numbers etc)

i dont think he went though the motions like other posters have said i think he educated himself on her religion so they could get married in the eyes of the god she believed in.

religion is one of those things, it what you make it i guess.

and @Akrasia
i didnt say it was offensive, i said there is a big difference between offering your opinion on something and offending others in the process for the sake of it...

ie saying things like i resent my parents for baptising me i'm sure is pretty offensive to her parents, who were trying their best im sure.

calling people who choose to make a rational educated decision hypocrites isnt necessary, you can give your opinion without belittling people who disagree with you

saying kids who bully others because of religious differences due to parenting is just riduclious, kids at that young an age just see difference they dont know if its good or bad, young tommy being pulled out of class or not participating is different, so they will point it out. the same as being short or wearing glasses or fat, all things you cant control but will be pointed out by young kids as thats why they do. they dont mean offence they just dont know. their kids... it happens.

you can chose to be pragmatic and accept that a man in a white robe pouring cold water on your head means nothing but you will get first choice on a school and your kid will have some nice stories to tell about a massive boat and all the animals and a flood or you can not care.

or you can not, but name calling of people who do believe or chose to be pragmatic is pointless and judgemental. it doesnt really help the discussion and just gets peoples backs up.

lazygal

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I know you're trying to sound like a voice of reason but this is just a a nice way of saying it's ok to do a religious ceremony you don't believe. And it is this attitude that maintains our current crazy system. My parents often say maybe if their generation had actually thought things through change could have happened much faster in terms of schools.

lazygal

livedadream wrote: »

ie saying things like i resent my parents for baptising me i'm sure is pretty offensive to her parents, who were trying their best im sure..

But my parents have said they weren't trying their best, they baptised us for many of the reasons stated here, fitting in, not wanting to rock the boat for schools etc. Now they say they made the wrong choice and helped to perpetuate the current system, if they had their time over they would do far better and keep us away from religion until we were old enough to critically analyse things for ourselves.

livedadream

lazygal wrote: »

But my parents have said they weren't trying their best, they baptised us for many of the reasons stated here, fitting in, not wanting to rock the boat for schools etc. Now they say they made the wrong choice and helped to perpetuate the current system, if they had their time over they would do far better and keep us away from religion until we were old enough to critically analyse things for ourselves.

and the fact you resent them for that says more about you than them.

Effects

I think it would make sense for their to be a sign in at mass, and then the children who have the highest number of sign ins get first preference when it comes to getting into schools.

DeadlyByDesign

Effects wrote: »

I think it would make sense for their to be a sign in at mass, and then the children who have the highest number of sign ins get first preference when it comes to getting into schools.

Why?

endacl

Effects wrote: »

I think it would make sense for their to be a sign in at mass, and then the children who have the highest number of sign ins get first preference when it comes to getting into schools.

And the parents who have A record of attending get to have their children baptised!

Excellent idea. Then once the last few genuine believers pass away we'd have all those lovely old buildings to repurpose!

livedadream

Effects wrote: »

I think it would make sense for their to be a sign in at mass, and then the children who have the highest number of sign ins get first preference when it comes to getting into schools.

like those starbucks cards, ten confessions and get one Penance free? :P

lazygal

DeadlyByDesign wrote: »

Why?

So that those who actually follow the rules and do the ceremonies for the right reasons get priority?
I would love if church attendance was linked to school enrollment for all religious schools. Lets see how that would work out!

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

lazygal

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I have written countless strongly worded letters to TDs. Nothing has happened. Maybe if parents actually stood over their principles there would be fewer meaningless baptism certs handed over to schools and change would be quicker.

endacl

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

There'd be nothing stopping you just writing that letter. No need to go through the sham.

NIMAN

DeadlyByDesign wrote: »

Thanks,we have discussed "doing it for the sake of more choice", still feels wrong, but I think it might be something we have to look into.

I would say many young parents are of this train of thought these days.

lawred2

livedadream wrote: »

the one thing i do always say it (and just because it happened a friend of mine)
think long term.
a friend of mine got engaged, was planning the wedding when she found out she couldnt get married in the big white church wedding she wanted because her future husband wasnt baptised.
he had to go though the whole thing... over the summer so they could. was a total pain for them.

well that's bullsh!t

My wife was not baptised and there was little issue getting married in a Catholic church.

All that was needed was a five line letter to the Archbishop.

There was no requirement for that lad to go through 'the whole thing'. Sounds like he was on the wrong end of either bad or deliberately malicious advice.

NIMAN

endacl wrote: »

There'd be nothing stopping you just writing that letter. No need to go through the sham.

There is. Schooling for one.

Unfortunately the Catholic Church control 99% of schools and are allowed to discriminate against you.

You can of course stand by your principles, not baptise and take your child 1hr in the car to your nearest Educate Together school, or follow the sham and take them 5min down the road to your local Catholic controlled national school. Your choice.

Whispered

If you are on Facebook there is a group called "raising kids without religion Ireland" where you will get a lot of information. I'd highly recommend having a read through some of the posts or even asking your question there too.

We opted not to have our son christened and will not send him to a school with a religious ethos, even with the opt-out option.

endacl

Technology provides the solution...

https://www.google.ie/search?q=baptismal+certificate&rlz=1C9BKJA_enIE657IE657&hl=en-GB&prmd=ivn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjRrPC-oJHPAhVrK8AKHff9CNAQ_AUIBygB&biw=768&bih=909&dpr=2